Anti-denominational followers of Jesus

[ChristianTonyB]

You seem to have missed the point. The Jews went to the synagogues to assemble and worship, and Christ joined them because He was fully under the Law of Moses (which required the observance of the Sabbath). The Christian "Sabbath" is the Lord's Day, which was set aside for Christian worship in assemblies. It is Christ Himself who made the first day of the week into "the Lord's Day".

No, I didn’t miss your point. I just don’t agree with your conclusions.

 

[RichMan]

I agree, no perfect churches; but there are churches who have the ability to listen and those who don't. The institutional churches have stopped listening to the Lord. It's all about getting people to come to them and give them their cash, when the true church has been commanded to go spread the gospel.

I agree we need to assemble. Solitude should never be a normal practice. But unfortunately the option to disengage from the institutional churches is better at this time than to stay and participate in their apathy.

I can't help believe that people like yourself who continue to encourage participation with dead institutional churches have something invested and something to gain personally from it. You're definitely not listen to what the Spirit is saying to us.

As you normally do, you make assumptions about people you know nothing about.
As for as listening to the Spirit, the Spirit will never lead a person to forsake assembling.
While I agree most "institutional churches" MAY be dead, I will not judge those I have never been assembled with.
In my opinion, for someone to pass judgement on a local church they have never attended, is just showing that person's ignorance.

 

[Beckie]

This thread reminds me of the kid who no matter where or what someone was always mean or ignored her. There was something wrong with the softball team, the other kids at church, the school kids. When we grow up we should be able to notice the only constant is ourselves.

 

[ResidentAlien]

As you normally do, you make assumptions about people you know nothing about.

Okay, I won't assume, I'll ask you straight out: Are you the pastor of a local church or do you get any of your income from your position in a church?

 

[RichMan]

Okay, I won't assume, I'll ask you straight out: Are you the pastor of a local church or do you get any of your income from your position in a church?

No. Never have and never will.
For the record-------
I am an independent, conservative, fundamental Baptist.
Now before you jump on the fact I am a Baptist, understand that all Baptist churches are independent, self governing assemblies, and all who wear the name Baptist may have little or nothing common as for as teaching and practice.
Many that wear the name Baptist, I will not fellowship with.
I make that judgement on personal knowledge, not assumptions.
I am privileged to be the teacher in a local church that meets each Sunday morning in a home.
On Sunday evening I meet with another local church in another city that meets in a rented building because it out grew the home it began in.
Neither of these local Baptist churches pay anyone. All who serve, serve out of love.
I understand there is corruption in the religious world.
But, It is not for me to judge. God will deal with those in His own time and way.
It angers me when people judge and condemn people and local churches they have never set foot in.

 

[Amanuensis]

A so called lead pastor/elder appears to be a title/role that some religious institutions have established, but it has no place in the body of Christ. What part of our body can say to the other parts, I have ascendency over you.

It is possible that a fellowship may have and elderly elder that warrants extra respect and deference to their knowledge because of the their life experiences, but they would have no declared authority over any other elder. A pastor's role is one of service, not headship.

Serving is everyone's role in the body. That is exactly how it works. Good pastors conduct themselves as humble servants.

When the bible says to submit to those who have the authority over you who minister in the Word of God it is because they are praying and giving themselves to hear from God and preach a word that is from the Spirit and when you hear that word you should be able to tell that you are hearing from God and so you submit to that anointing that God is trying to minister into your life. It's not an authority of a man being over you, or bossing you around.

But there is some humility involved on part of the one receiving the Word. One must admit when they are wrong and allow the word of God to correct them.

 

[ResidentAlien]

No. Never have and never will.

Okay, fair enough.

However, you'll never get me to agree that it's never the Spirit's will to forsake assembling. If you think I'm judgmental then you are out of touch with reality.

 

[Amanuensis]

No. Never have and never will.
For the record-------
I am an independent, conservative, fundamental Baptist.
Now before you jump on the fact I am a Baptist, understand that all Baptist churches are independent, self governing assemblies, and all who wear the name Baptist may have little or nothing common as for as teaching and practice.
Many that wear the name Baptist, I will not fellowship with.
I make that judgement on personal knowledge, not assumptions.
I am privileged to be the teacher in a local church that meets each Sunday morning in a home.
On Sunday evening I meet with another local church in another city that meets in a rented building because it out grew the home it began in.
Neither of these local Baptist churches pay anyone. All who serve, serve out of love.
I understand there is corruption in the religious world.
But, It is not for me to judge. God will deal with those in His own time and way.
It angers me when people judge and condemn people and local churches they have never set foot in.

It angers you because you have God's heart. What I often hear in complaints sounds like a lack of knowledge about the way things really are. Many assumptions and accusations that aren't reality.

As to supporting pastors financially. It is my opinion that when we are glorified and in our perfect state of knowledge we will find out that since the time of Jesus it has been God's will for most disciples to give themselves completely to full time ministry of the Gospel and trust God to provide financially, but doubt and unbelief about how they would survive kept them working secular jobs all their lives. They were still saved but did not accomplish the ministries that they could have if they would have just had faith.

Yes, I know Paul made tents. But not all the time. He was not chained to it like a slave in a decades long 9-5. He knew how to support himself and he also knew how to receive support from others.

I believe that many more people are called to give up their careers and become full time pastors and missionaries but don't do it because they can't make that radical step to free themselves from serving mammon.

We will see. But I think I am on to something.

 

[RichMan]

Okay, fair enough.

However, you'll never get me to agree that it's never the Spirit's will to forsake assembling. If you think I'm judgmental then you are out of touch with reality.

On this subject we will disagree.

 

[RichMan]

It angers you because you have God's heart. What I often hear in complaints sounds like a lack of knowledge about the way things really are. Many assumptions and accusations that aren't reality.

As to supporting pastors financially. It is my opinion that when we are glorified and in our perfect state of knowledge we will find out that since the time of Jesus it has been God's will for most disciples to give themselves completely to full time ministry of the Gospel and trust God to provide financially, but doubt and unbelief about how they would survive kept them working secular jobs all their lives. They were still saved but did not accomplish the ministries that they could have if they would have just had faith.

Yes, I know Paul made tents. But not all the time. He was not chained to it like a slave in a decades long 9-5. He knew how to support himself and he also knew how to receive support from others.

I believe that many more people are called to give up their careers and become full time pastors and missionaries but don't do it because they can't make that radical step to free themselves from serving mammon.

We will see. But I think I am on to something.

It is not always that they are not willing to give themselves to full time ministry, just that some times it is not possible.
We do not know how often Paul and others in the early years had to work at secular jobs to support themselves.
I will say this also, often God's provision comes in the form of a job that allows one to do all that God ask.
So, I would suggest that we do not judge those who work at a secular job and pastor also as not being fully committed to God's calling.

 

[TheLearner]

Oh there is no way I will keep up

 

[ChristianTonyB]

Serving is everyone's role in the body. That is exactly how it works. Good pastors conduct themselves as humble servants.

When the bible says to submit to those who have the authority over you who minister in the Word of God it is because they are praying and giving themselves to hear from God and preach a word that is from the Spirit and when you hear that word you should be able to tell that you are hearing from God and so you submit to that anointing that God is trying to minister into your life. It's not an authority of a man being over you, or bossing you around.

But there is some humility involved on part of the one receiving the Word. One must admit when they are wrong and allow the word of God to correct them.

That‘s true. I think Paul’s reference in his letter to the part of the church located in Rome was about our obligation to obey civilian authorities. In his letter to the Hebrews he was indicating that we ought listen to the advice given by the selected elders, because they’ve been set aside for the purpose of watching overs us and helping us live godly lives. There‘s no hierarchical structure involved in the true church community though.

Sadly, in my personal experience, I have never found anyone that God has set aside to serve in that pastoring capacity. I don’t say that a church of God group led by God-appointed pastors doesn’t exist, I just haven’t come across them, and I’ve surely been trying to find them. It’s not fun being alone in this world, and I’ve stuck that out for 37 years, give or take. However, I won’t participate in anything I believe goes against my Father’s wishes!

 

[Amanuensis]

That‘s true. I think Paul’s reference in his letter to the part of the church located in Rome was about our obligation to obey civilian authorities. In his letter to the Hebrews he was indicating that we ought listen to the advice given by the selected elders, because they’ve been set aside for the purpose of watching overs us and helping us live godly lives. There‘s no hierarchical structure involved in the true church community though.

Sadly, in my personal experience, I have never found anyone that God has set aside to serve in that pastoring capacity. I don’t say that a church of God group led by God-appointed pastors doesn’t exist, I just haven’t come across them, and I’ve surely been trying to find them. It’s not fun being alone in this world, and I’ve stuck that out for 37 years, give or take. However, I won’t participate in anything I believe goes against my Father’s wishes!

You shouldn't. Walk in the clear conscience of obedience in the light that you have. However don't give up looking because there is a good chance that there is a worthy fellowship trying to sincerely serve the Lord without any manmade additions somewhere near you. I really can't speak for Australia, but my experience in USA would suggest that. However, setting my experience aside, I want to believe what I said for you based on my faith that God always has a remnant.

In 1985 I was a leader of an outreach ministry that was one of the ministries of a large megachurch. I loved the people I served with and to this day many of them are still my good friends. However the pastor was a false prophet and the Lord told me to leave. I started looking for a church in the large city I was in and I didn't like any of the ones I visited. They were either more of the same thing I had extracted myself from or they were into other things I felt the Holy Spirit was leading me away from as not scriptural.

Finally after praying and through some phone calls to a ministry of a preacher I respected I heard about a fellowship meeting in an apartment clubhouse. I started going and I loved it. The fellowship had no name for several years. Eventually they took a name for legal purposes and I suppose to be able to get a building or space and bank account etc. They sort of fell apart after that and everyone went their separate ways. They were not perfect either. We tried, but we got a little too critical of everyone else I think. I don't think it was healthy so the Lord disbanded it. However, I did learn something from the years I was part of it. God lead me to the right church for me at the time, and it did not even have a name or could be found through normal means. I prayed and God answered me.

Keep looking. Keep praying. People need your love and contribution.

 

[Gideon300]

I agree. I've been on guard against that.

Re the teaching question, in the pentecostal sphere I circulated in for a while, their pastors often seemed to be of the evangelist/exhorted type. One of their assemblies I associated with did have an assistant (???) pastor that obviously had the bent of teaching, people often remarked that they learnt from Him. He had a falling out with the senior pastor over what needed to be taught, so left that assembly and went elsewhere.

But I also have to ask about teaching in the church. Since we have the Holy Spirit indwelling each and everyone of us Christians, and His knowledge of scripture and teaching ability is equal to the Father and the Son, and so we have the best private tutoring available with us all, always, what is a pastor/elder supposed to teach, and to whom?

God works through the body of Christ for a reason. Yes, we all have the Holy Spirit to lead us into truth. However, God also works through the Body. There are reasons for this. For one, no one has the capacity to know all truth and no one has the time to preach it if they did. it would take several lifetimes! Another key reason is to prevent spiritual pride. Sometimes God will use a person we might consider inferior or less mature to speak to us. If we are proud, that will deflate us and that's a good thing.

What the Holy Spirit will do is enable us to discern true teaching from false. There is plenty of misinterpretation and downright deception to contend with. No one comes into God's kingdom with any depth of spiritual knowledge. Someone who is experienced in God can help us learn things that might take us years to learn otherwise. Not everyone has a strong inner motivation to learn.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

God works through the body of Christ for a reason. Yes, we all have the Holy Spirit to lead us into truth. However, God also works through the Body. There are reasons for this. For one, no one has the capacity to know all truth and no one has the time to preach it if they did. it would take several lifetimes! Another key reason is to prevent spiritual pride. Sometimes God will use a person we might consider inferior or less mature to speak to us. If we are proud, that will deflate us and that's a good thing.

What the Holy Spirit will do is enable us to discern true teaching from false. There is plenty of misinterpretation and downright deception to contend with. No one comes into God's kingdom with any depth of spiritual knowledge. Someone who is experienced in God can help us learn things that might take us years to learn otherwise. Not everyone has a strong inner motivation to learn.

You could be right. He says He will resist the proud, which I assume would include us if we think we know everything. The Bible doesn’t exactly describe what pastors (aka shepherds/overseers/elders/bishops) are to do, but it’s obvious that they will need to have any understanding of the welfare status (spiritual, physical, mental, emotional, and to a degree familial) of each of the flock of God they are caring for, to be able to serve them effectively.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

It angers you because you have God's heart. What I often hear in complaints sounds like a lack of knowledge about the way things really are. Many assumptions and accusations that aren't reality.

As to supporting pastors financially. It is my opinion that when we are glorified and in our perfect state of knowledge we will find out that since the time of Jesus it has been God's will for most disciples to give themselves completely to full time ministry of the Gospel and trust God to provide financially, but doubt and unbelief about how they would survive kept them working secular jobs all their lives. They were still saved but did not accomplish the ministries that they could have if they would have just had faith.

Yes, I know Paul made tents. But not all the time. He was not chained to it like a slave in a decades long 9-5. He knew how to support himself and he also knew how to receive support from others.

I believe that many more people are called to give up their careers and become full time pastors and missionaries but don't do it because they can't make that radical step to free themselves from serving mammon.

We will see. But I think I am on to something.

For me, it depends on what is meant by 'ministry'. Only a relative few of us have been set apart by God to act specifically as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. The vast majority of us are ministering by helping each other with life's needs (spiritual, physical, mental, emotional, relational), and maintaining godly behaviour in our neighbourhood, work, and other places we move in, and always being prepared to give forth a description of the hope that is in us, through our faith.

 

[Amanuensis]

For me, it depends on what is meant by 'ministry'. Only a relative few of us have been set apart by God to act specifically as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. The vast majority of us are ministering by helping each other with life's needs (spiritual, physical, mental, emotional, relational), and maintaining godly behaviour in our neighbourhood, work, and other places we move in, and always being prepared to give forth a description of the hope that is in us, through our faith.

I agree. We all have our particular ministry to the body.

However, I believe many are called to devote themselves to preaching the Gospel world wide in a team effort where the individual members have different contributions besides preaching in a full time effort but they won't let go of their secular jobs out of fear.

And I believe that we will realize it later. And I believe that many of those will suffer loss of rewards at the Bema seat because they spent too much time on wood, hay and stubble, in those things they thought were important ministry but really were just excuses to keep serving mammon.

It is no easy task to go all the way with God. Jesus taught a lot about it. I think that many who think they are saved really won't be because of their unwillingness to heed the radical call of forsaking all for Christ and the Gospel.

The more I read the Gospel of Luke the more I am seeing that we have not grasped the life and death importance of giving up this world and mammon for the Gospel. One in a million really gets it.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

I agree. We all have our particular ministry to the body.

However, I believe many are called to devote themselves to preaching the Gospel world wide in a team effort where the individual members have different contributions besides preaching in a full time effort but they won't let go of their secular jobs out of fear.

And I believe that we will realize it later. And I believe that many of those will suffer loss of rewards at the Bema seat because they spent too much time on wood, hay and stubble, in those things they thought were important ministry but really were just excuses to keep serving mammon.

It is no easy task to go all the way with God. Jesus taught a lot about it. I think that many who think they are saved really won't be because of their unwillingness to heed the radical call of forsaking all for Christ and the Gospel.

The more I read the Gospel of Luke the more I am seeing that we have not grasped the life and death importance of giving up this world and mammon for the Gospel. One in a million really gets it.

I see it more like we are not to allow any want for material possessions or other demands of the flesh to take control of our lives. We are to let our lights (godly behaviour) shine in amongst the world, including in our work places and neighbourhood, indeed, wherever we are. If memory serves me right, doesn't the apostle declare that if an able-bodied man refuses to work, they shouldn't be given food?

 

[Magenta]

. If memory serves me right, doesn't the apostle declare that if an able-bodied man refuses to work, they shouldn't be given food?

For even when we were with you, we were commanding you this, that
"if anyone is not willing to work, neither let him eat." 2 Thessalonians 3:10

 

[TheLearner]

That‘s true. I think Paul’s reference in his letter to the part of the church located in Rome was about our obligation to obey civilian authorities. In his letter to the Hebrews he was indicating that we ought listen to the advice given by the selected elders, because they’ve been set aside for the purpose of watching overs us and helping us live godly lives. There‘s no hierarchical structure involved in the true church community though.

Sadly, in my personal experience, I have never found anyone that God has set aside to serve in that pastoring capacity. I don’t say that a church of God group led by God-appointed pastors doesn’t exist, I just haven’t come across them, and I’ve surely been trying to find them. It’s not fun being alone in this world, and I’ve stuck that out for 37 years, give or take. However, I won’t participate in anything I believe goes against my Father’s wishes!

Look for a Paster who covers the add to virtues in II Peter 1. I never heard anyone preach, nor teach on that.