God did not "order" this. He gave them a directive in the event that they went to war. But it was never put into effect.
why does this verse say chidlren are plunder?
- Thread starter Melach
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Chapter 20 contain the instructions concerning the principles of war. That said, consider what kind of people that Israel would attack. They weren't an aggressive people. And there were cities that God commanded them to attack and wipe out. The reason was how corrupt the cities/peoples were. That is also why God commanded the Israelites to kill even the children. The point was to eradicate the evil of the people.
In the case of v.10-14, it is clear that the people that the Israelites would attack were to be their servants/slaves. So if they resisted, the Israelites were to kill all the male adults, and take as servants/slaves the women and children.
Another word for this is "plunder" and the principe is seen throughout the time Israel took the promised land.
Whether one reads the NIV in the OP or whatever version you quoted above changes nothing of the passage. The message is clear in both translations.
And that is what "plunder" is. Taking the valuables, animals, jewelry, etc and the people as slaves. It is all plunder.
Are you a KJV only type?
It's important to know the difference between an indentured servant and a slave.
Kind of a strange "perspective", considering the NT and all it teaches about God and His views toward His creatures.
John 3:16 comes readily to mind: for God so loved (loved in THIS WAY) the world (all of mankind) that He gave (sacrificed) His uniquely born Son (virgin pregnancy) that whoever believes in Him shall not perish (Jn 10:28b) but have eternal life (Jn 10:28a).
Or Titus 2:11 which says that the grace of God has offered salvation to all people.
Or 1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
Doesn't sound like He views people as "disposable" as you opine.
When He commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child in certain cities, it was because their evil was so great God wanted nothing of it to remain.
Here (<= link
) is another page illuminating the use of the word "slave" in the Bible.Excerpt: If you look at the Old Testament in the King James, you will find the word “slave” once.
But the Hebrew word appears 800 times in the noun, and nearly 300 in the verb. There is a word
in the Old Testament for “slave” that appears eleven hundred times, but in your English Bible it’s
translated “slave” once. If you go to the New Testament, you will find the Greek word for “slave”
about 150 times in all its forms. And you will find it translated “slave” only a few of those 150 times.
Nothing you just said is contrary to what I said. I said God loves people in a moral sense and you showed verses for that.
People are absolutely demonstrated to be disposable again and again. That’s a standard Biblical teaching.
Isaiah 13:9
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
John 15:6
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Romans 9:22
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
I haven’t even got into the story of the great flood, the destruction of cities, or the destruction of soul and body in the lake of fire.
That’s called a moot point.
No, it isn't. The word "disposable" is never seen in the Bible regarding people.
In the first 2 verses, we see that God disciplines sinners. In the final verse, we see that God endures with much longsuffering those who are "fitted to destruction".
iow, people all have the opportunity to recognize Him as Creator God and be thankful to Him, per Rom 1:19-21. And all people have the opportunity to receive the offer of salvation, per Titus 2:11.
Those who don't do these things will be met with His discipline and punishment.
But the concept of "discard" implies not important or significant, trash, etc.
That is the furtherest thing from God's mind when considering His creation of the human race.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
God's applied discipline or wrath to people isn't an act of discarding at all. It is His justice in action.
This describes disposable among many other verses.
John 15:6
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned
God doesn’t discipline sinners, He only disciplines His children.
Hebrews 12:6
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
That’s false. Again God disciplines His children. Random unrepentant sinners aren’t God’s children.
That’s false. People aren’t trash. The word trash never once appears in the Bible.
God destroys people. If that doesn’t mean disposable then your “perspective” is strange.
You don’t seem to understand in what sense God loves people. God loves people enough to offer them a way to be saved from destruction. Again, those who aren’t in Christ (sinners) are like dead branches useful as kindling for a fire; that’s what John 15:6 says.
You’re free to disagree, but the Bible says otherwise as long as that’s clear.
i think this is the case too. if you read just the new testament you can come to a different conclusion like freegrace does. but if you take all of the bible its a land slide of verses. even in the new testament you got God working to bring about misery to a lot of people, its His divine right to do so:
Revelation 17:17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled
I agree with that. I think that’s just a real and honest perspective to hold. Yes I agree it’s God’s right to do as He wishes.
When it comes to the NIV i definitly lean towards the KJV type..
And obviously i disagree with you on this point..
Plunder/booty/spoil/etc simply means anything of value taken in war.
"Plunder is something taken by a victor nation as a right of conquest"
-Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary (p. 232).
Victor-nations could decide to eliminate or take captive their enemies of war. The God of Israel made it clear which option He approved.
This verse is about fellowship with the Lord in order to bear fruit. iow, a believer cannot bear fruit for the Lord unless he/she is in fellowship with the Lord. Fellowship is about the state of the relationship. Just like a marriage. Fellowship is maintained/restored when a believer confesses their ongoing sins. Otherwise, God does not hear their prayers. Psa 68:18
Oh, so His children are all sinless, huh.
Now explain WHY God would scourge (skin alive with a whip) EVERY son? What would be the reason, other than SIN?
I said:
"But the concept of "discard" implies not important or significant, trash, etc."
My statement is true. I never said the Bible uses the word "trash". But the idea of discarding something DOES apply to things that are worthless, LIKE trash. I'm sorry that you are not connecting the clear dots.
No, it is YOUR perapective that is weird. God applies justice to everyone. Which results in physical death and the second death. But they still live on in the lake of fire, being tormented "day and night, forever and ever". Rev 20:10.
No one is "destroyed" in the permanent sense. Annihilation isn't taught in the Bible.
I made that clear when I quoted John 3:16. "so loved" is literally "in this way".
Doesn't "context" have any significance to you?? Who was Jesus speaking to in John 15:1-6? His 11 SAVED disciples. Judas had already left the supper. Jesus was plainly telling His disciples HOW to bear fruit; by abiding in Him (fellowship).
Thank you for your generous offer to disagree and your opinion, which I will ignore.
Get real. A person discards what is worthless. John 3:16 proves that every human being was worth God's Son going to the cross and paying their sin debt, so that they would be saved if they trusted in Christ and His work on the cross.
What you guys fail to understand is that people discard worthless things. God doesn't view any human being as worthless.
FreeGrace2 said:
Whether one reads the NIV in the OP or whatever version you quoted above changes nothing of the passage. The message is clear in both translations.
And that is what "plunder" is. Taking the valuables, animals, jewelry, etc and the people as slaves. It is all plunder.
Are you a KJV only type?
Whether one reads the NIV in the OP or whatever version you quoted above changes nothing of the passage. The message is clear in both translations.
And that is what "plunder" is. Taking the valuables, animals, jewelry, etc and the people as slaves. It is all plunder.
Are you a KJV only type?
What is there to disagree on? BOTH versions communicated EXACTLY the SAME MESSAGE.
did judas have worth? did the antichrist have worth? and so on. what about the people who Jesus said should be hung by a millstone and thrown into the sea?
FreeGrace2 said:
Get real. A person discards what is worthless. John 3:16 proves that every human being was worth God's Son going to the cross and paying their sin debt, so that they would be saved if they trusted in Christ and His work on the cross.
What you guys fail to understand is that people discard worthless things. God doesn't view any human being as worthless.
However, YES, Judas did have worth. Jesus died for him. What does that mean to you? If God had determined that Judas wasn't worth saving, Jesus would NOT have died for him. But Jesus died for everyone, therefore everyone has worth to God.
Judging people for their behavior doesn't mean they are "worthless".
If God DID view anyone as "worthless", He wouldn't have allowed Jesus to die for them.
Get real, please.
Get real. A person discards what is worthless. John 3:16 proves that every human being was worth God's Son going to the cross and paying their sin debt, so that they would be saved if they trusted in Christ and His work on the cross.
What you guys fail to understand is that people discard worthless things. God doesn't view any human being as worthless.
Ah, deflection from the truth. Why not just deal with what I posted.
However, YES, Judas did have worth. Jesus died for him. What does that mean to you? If God had determined that Judas wasn't worth saving, Jesus would NOT have died for him. But Jesus died for everyone, therefore everyone has worth to God.
Same answer to all of your "so on". Apparently you believe that Jesus didn't die for everyone.
What about them? Did Jesus have a reason to say that? Or was He just being mean?
Judging people for their behavior doesn't mean they are "worthless".
If God DID view anyone as "worthless", He wouldn't have allowed Jesus to die for them.
Get real, please.
All believers are in fellowship with the Lord.
The verse next chapter shows this clearly:
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
This is fellowship through belief. Believers are in fellowship. When Jesus talked about chopping branches off and burning them He was talking about people who don’t abide in Him, aka non-believers.
In a sense married people have become one flesh and are not disunited except by death or adultery. Maybe you’re referring to positional fellowship. People are forgiven by the work of Christ, but in another sense can create “relationship problem by sinning. This isn’t the same thing as being dispensed as you seem to be suggesting.
God’s children can sin, but being forgiven effectually makes them sinless. If your sins aren’t counted against you are you still a sinner?
That’s what the Bible says. I’m surprised you think it’s literal.
Luke 12:47,48
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I used the word disposable. I think it’s accurate.
I don’t think something that is discarded needs to be trash. It just needs to have no use. People are valuable, but that isn’t the same thing as being worthless garbage. I don’t think we speak the same language.
People don’t die then live forever. John 3:16 promises eternal life to those who believe and death to those who don’t believe. Perish means death.
[QUOTW]No one is "destroyed" in the permanent sense. Annihilation isn't taught in the Bible.[/QUOTE]
Annihilation is Biblical.
But what sense is the love?
Keeping reading into John 17.
Ditto.