Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[2ndTimothyGroup]

it's a lot like ezekiel God going to destroy judah and jerusalem and israel. the jews were disobeying God by offering to idols. but those jews did not pay immediately. we always see the destruction happening to future generations of jews. i think the deep sleep is what is happening to the current jew.

Okie doke.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

@The_Watchers_2017

I'm not sure of why you'd give me a thumbs-up. You didn't do as I requested, which is a thumbsdown.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

@The_Watchers_2017

I'm not sure of why you'd give me a thumbs-up. You didn't do as I requested, which is a thumbsdown.

i am familiar with the passage of Scripture you are referencing. i know those jews isaiah is writing about did not go through what God warned them of and told isaiah He would do. i know when it happened. so those jews during isaiah's time paid at the end of their life, but they never suffered the Prophecy of God.

so, i cannot do as you asked because those people got away with what they were doing and a future generation paid for it.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

i will repost your question again and do it differently.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Let's make this more simple to understand. I am asking you why God placed Israel into a deep sleep while during the days of the Old Testament. Here they are again:

Isaiah 6:8-13 - “Listen carefully, but do not understand. Watch closely, but learn nothing.’ Harden the hearts of these people. Plug their ears and shut their eyes. That way, they will not see with their eyes, nor hear with their ears, nor understand with their hearts . . .”

here's the references that explain when this is going to happen (. Matt. 13:14-15; 28:19; Luke8:10)-(. Matt. 13:13-15; Mark4:12; 8:18; John9:39; 12:40)

Isaiah 29:10-14 NLT – “For the LORD has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep. He has closed the eyes of your prophets and visionaries.

here's the reference to explain (Matt. 15:8-9; Mark7:6-7)

What is the purpose?

Please explain through Scripture, not personal ideas.[/QUOTE]
(Matt. 13:14-15; 28:19; Luke8:10)-(Matt. 13:13-15; Mark4:12; 8:18; John9:39; 12:40) and (Matt. 15:8-9; Mark7:6-7)

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

This thread isn't concerned with "when" something is going to happen. It is concerned with God controlling the minds of people.

Again, you are not understanding what this thread is about. If you did, when you requested that I look at Matthew 13:14-15 (which will be discussed on Day 287 of the timeline, chronological reading plan), you would have known that this would work against your position and have not used this verse, for verse 11 says this:

Matthew 13:11 NLT - "He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not."

Why can't you see how God controls the minds of humans? Some people are allowed to understand; some people are not, and this 100% defies the concept of human "free will" . . . for those who cannot understand will not understand beyond their ability to choose.

Seriously, I no longer have time to investigate these passages that you're offering. They don't apply. However, I do appreciate your attempt at dialog. If you'd like to discuss "free will," that'd be great.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Matt 13:13 For this reason I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear nor do they understand. 14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘You will keep on hearing but will never understand; you will keep looking, but will never see. 15 For the heart of this people has become dull, their ears can barely hear, and they have shut their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts.

Matt 15:7 Hypocrites! Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying, 8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

Mark 4:11 And He told them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God. But for those who are outside, everything is in parables, so that 12 ‘Seeing, they may see and not perceive, and hearing, they may hear and not understand, so they may not turn back and be forgiven.’

Mark 7:6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honors Me with their lips but their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

and the rest say the same thing. it's just repeating isaiah.

i did not use Matt 13:11

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

You used isaiah 6 and 29 and I showed how these were told to the generation it was meant for in matthew/mark/luke/john

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

as far as God mind controlling people, sinners go to hell and those who believe in Christ and repent go to paradise. yep, it's all mind control and a changed mind changes the entire person. God knows what He is doing.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

i did not use Matt 13:11

That's right, and this shows that we're not going to get anywhere in this discussion. Take care.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

That's right, and this shows that we're not going to get anywhere in this discussion. Take care.

But the deep sleep or delusion is not about Matthew 13:11. there's 2 positions here, ones who understand and those who do not. in the new testament it's those who understand the Parables and those who don't. your scripture reference in isaiah 6 and 29 are about those who do not understand. so for you to flip Matt 13:11 is completely moving the goal post. for that reason alone no one should be discussing this with you.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

But the deep sleep or delusion is not about Matthew 13:11. there's 2 positions here, ones who understand and those who do not. in the new testament it's those who understand the Parables and those who don't. your scripture reference in isaiah 6 and 29 are about those who do not understand. so for you to flip Matt 13:11 is completely moving the goal post. for that reason alone no one should be discussing this with you.

Unbelievable. It amazes me how so many, here, speak in odd circles rarely making any sense at all.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

but i understood you all along. i began with what was said isaiah did not happen until a later generation. then i provided verses when it took place in the Gospels. Matthew 13:11 is about understanding, your discussion to me from isaiah 6 and 29 is about not understanding. but i followed you to a T. the generation Jesus spoke to "did not" understand His Parables as prophesied in isaiah 6 and 29. so as i said, this happened to a future generation past isaiah.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Right. And the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the Law said the same essential thing to Jesus. But because He understood the context of discussion, He was able to positively conclude that they did not understand. And because it is me who provides the context, it is up to me to decide who understands my context and who does not.

Have a good day.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Right. And the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the Law said the same essential thing to Jesus. But because He understood the context of discussion, He was able to positively conclude that they did not understand. And because it is me who provides the context, it is up to me to decide who understands my context and who does not.

Have a good day.

Jesus used a Parable so they could not understand. you provide verses that can be understood for the time it was written and for when the prophecy would eventually take place. but you are correct about one thing, no one knows your intent but yourself.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

but you are correct about one thing, no one knows your intent but yourself.

Alrighty. But everything else . . . I'm just wrong.

Have a good day.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

i am not trying to prove you wrong or even thought that you were wrong. i just knew the prophecy in isaiah did not happen until Jesus spoke in Parables.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

i am not trying to prove you wrong or even thought that you were wrong. i just knew the prophecy in isaiah did not happen until Jesus spoke in Parables.

Alright, I will give in to your misdirection of the intention of this thread and discuss these passages.

Are you suggesting that the Scripture (that I quoted) in the days of Isaiah were not applicable to the Israelites of that day?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Alright, I will give in to your misdirection of the intention of this thread and discuss these passages.

Are you suggesting that the Scripture (that I quoted) in the days of Isaiah were not applicable to the Israelites of that day?

i am suggesting that it clearly was a warning to the jews of isaiah's day. all warnings from God are intended to make us stop what we are doing wrong immediately. matthew 13 tells us specifically what we need to know in verse 14.

matthew 13:
13 For this reason I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear nor do they understand.
14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘You will keep on hearing but will never understand; you will keep looking, but will never see.

And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, < clearly states what was written by isaiah in chapter 6 is being fulfilled in matthew chapter 13.

so clearly the jews were warned in isaiah's day, but the prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus' day (And in them the prophecy of Isaiah [[is being fulfilled]],)

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

i am suggesting that it clearly was a warning to the jews of isaiah's day. all warnings from God are intended to make us stop what we are doing wrong immediately. matthew 13 tells us specifically what we need to know in verse 14.

matthew 13:
13 For this reason I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear nor do they understand.
14 “And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘You will keep on hearing but will never understand; you will keep looking, but will never see.

And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, < clearly states what was written by isaiah in chapter 6 is being fulfilled in matthew chapter 13.

so clearly the jews were warned in isaiah's day, but the prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus' day (And in them the prophecy of Isaiah [[is being fulfilled]],)

So far so good. So you agree that God caused the eyes and ears of Israel to be closed at least by and through those words of Isaiah, correct? And when Jesus said that the prophecy of Isaiah had been "fulfilled," this meant that it came to full fruition when Christ's disciples had been granted the ability to understand. Is this right?