I thought I'd keep it simple without adding any leading statements or questions. Just describe what church is to you.
What is church?
- Thread starter ResidentAlien
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The church or "ekklesia" is God's called-out congregation or bidden assembly of believers in Jesus Christ.
It is NOT a building.
It is "the kingdom of God" and Jesus is reigning as King. There is an invisible church, and there is a visible church. Combined they represent all of God's elect.
Ezk 10, describes it as a wheel within a wheel. The smaller wheel that is within the larger wheel represents the visible church, and the larger wheel represents the invisible church. This harmonizes with the two gates in Matthew. The wide gate and the broad way representing the invisible church of born again believers that are going about teaching and preaching eternal salvation gained by their good works. The straight gate and narrow way represents the small wheel and are those that have been revealed, by the Holy Spirit within them, the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught. Both gates have an inheritance secured in heaven.
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RichMan
Guest
Ekklesia--Original meaning was a local called out assembly, called out for a special task.
All the saved make up the kingdom of God with Jesus as king.
All the saved are the family of God.
All the saved are the children of God.
The Ekklesia/church, if we hold to the original meaning of the word, is the local assembly commissioned to preach the Gospel to the world, baptize those who believe and teach them all things with Jesus as head.
It can assemble anywhere.
All the saved make up the kingdom of God with Jesus as king.
All the saved are the family of God.
All the saved are the children of God.
The Ekklesia/church, if we hold to the original meaning of the word, is the local assembly commissioned to preach the Gospel to the world, baptize those who believe and teach them all things with Jesus as head.
It can assemble anywhere.
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pottersclay
Guest
The word "church" has two meanings in Scripture: (1) a gathering of believers at a particular location or city and (2) the Body of Christ (all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body with Christ as the Head). These are "the called out ones" who have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness into Go's Kingdom of Light. Thus they are also designated as "lights".
I agree totally with this. The church are those who plant seeds of the Word which will grow into the Kingdom. It's not a building or an institution organized around a building.
The church can meet in a building, but a building should be avoided in my opinion. Every time you introduce a building, it starts to become the focus, not Jesus or the mission. The focus starts to be "come to us" not "go to them."
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RichMan
Guest
But what is the original definition of the original word?
When we start changing the original definitions to what we like, it leads to the mess we presently have in the religious world, all sorts of false teaching, belief, practices.
I will stay with the original definition.
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RichMan
Guest
Building should be used only when necessary.
Sometimes a home just is not large enough.
Sometimes there are city ordinances against such meetings.
In bad weather, it is impossible to meet outside.
When a building becomes necessary, it should be simple.
A lot of the Lord's resources, money, time, effort is wasted on buildings that are too big, too fancy, too expensive to operate.
Not too long ago I had a meeting with the pastor of a group I had been visiting, and he kept using this word that really bugged me: the "unchurched." What he meant by that was someone who had never been or wasn't currently attending a local congregation on a regular basis. His whole thrust was to get the "unchurched" into the weekly meetings. His mission wasn't to go out and plant seeds but to get people to come to him, where supposedly they would receive seeds via his sermon. Even if they did decide to become a member, they wouldn't then go out and plant seeds, they expect people to come to them, just as they had done. The only one planting any seeds was the pastor, once a week on Sunday.
The problem with groups who use this approach is they usually end up compromising to get people to come to them: big fancy buildings; nice comfortable seating; elaborate musical or theatrical performances; coffee shop; sermons that don't offend; etc. And typically the pastor is the star of the show, not our Lord. There's another problem with this approach: as soon as a more attractive "church" comes along they'll leave.
I've even heard of groups that pay people to come to their meetings. Life.Church is a good example of this. Their policy, the last I heard anyway, was that if a person is in need they could take money from the offering when it went around. I applaud their desire to help the needy but is this really the way to do it? I knew people who made a point of attending just so they could grab some cash. They couldn't have cared less about Jesus or getting saved . . . or getting a job.
The problem with groups who use this approach is they usually end up compromising to get people to come to them: big fancy buildings; nice comfortable seating; elaborate musical or theatrical performances; coffee shop; sermons that don't offend; etc. And typically the pastor is the star of the show, not our Lord. There's another problem with this approach: as soon as a more attractive "church" comes along they'll leave.
I've even heard of groups that pay people to come to their meetings. Life.Church is a good example of this. Their policy, the last I heard anyway, was that if a person is in need they could take money from the offering when it went around. I applaud their desire to help the needy but is this really the way to do it? I knew people who made a point of attending just so they could grab some cash. They couldn't have cared less about Jesus or getting saved . . . or getting a job.
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RichMan
Guest
It seems this is wide spread, and when we SEE this we should expose it.
But we should be careful to not pass judgement on those we do not SEE.
As I stated in another post, let the Lord deal with these people. Be assured He will in His on good time.
It may be difficult, but there are still a few churches that are doing the Lord's will.
May take a lot of time and effort, may mean driving a great distance, but we should never give up.
I firmly belief we are to assemble and work together to do the Lord's work.
Who's passing judgement? By your standard we shouldn't say anything negative about anyone or anything. What if the Lord wants to use someone to wake people up? Nope, can't do that, can't be judgmental.
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RichMan
Guest
We should speak up. Never said we should not.
What I said is we should not judge what we have not seen or experienced.
Tell people what the Bible says and ask them to use that as the standard to examine what their church teaches and practices.
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RichMan
Guest
This is what I do on a regular bases.
I ask people what their church teaches.
I then go the the Scripture and we read what the Scripture teaches.
I then ask, "Who do you believe"?
I can not convince them they are being misled, but the Scripture may.
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RichMan
Guest
I learned a long time ago that I have no chance to help another understand the Scripture if I first attack what they believe, their church, their pastor.
When you call a person a false teacher, their church a cult, the conversation is over. You have lost any chance to help them.
Just present the Word. Let them read it. Let the Spirit do His work.
There may be a time when we must get in their face, but only after we try to reason with them.
When you call a person a false teacher, their church a cult, the conversation is over. You have lost any chance to help them.
Just present the Word. Let them read it. Let the Spirit do His work.
There may be a time when we must get in their face, but only after we try to reason with them.
There's a nice way to tell someone they're in a cult or their pastor is a false teacher. You seem to have a script which you can't venture beyond. If you want the Spirit to actually work you must expand your options.
If you correct someone nicely and they get angry or reject you it's not you they're rejecting. This kind of person would get angry and reject you no matter what you did. I used to live by the philosophy: People don't care what you know until they know that you care. Well, guess what? Even after they know you care they still won't care what you know. That's just the nature of things. There's good soil and there's bad. I'm not saying go out of your way to offend someone, but offense is the nature of the gospel in many cases.
Here is the thing about Judgment ------in my view -----
We who are Born Again are not suppose to judge unbelievers ------Unbelievers are in fact living as they should live -----being selfish ---prideful -----greedy ------desiring what they want -----etc they are fallen humans living in this fallen world -----so they are living rightly to the world's standards ------they don't want to hear Believers telling them that they need to go to church ---or that they are sinners -----or that they are living wrongly -------
Your statement here -------
What if the Lord wants to use someone to wake people up?
I say ----First God has to open up the hardened heart of the person to receive any message from His Word ------so then the believer ---will be directed to the Person that the Holy Spirit directs them to as only the Holy Spirit knows who;s heart has been softened to hear and receive the message from the Believer -----God has to DRAW the unbeliever and the unbeliever has to accept God's call to soften their heart -----seeds planted in rocky soil will be eaten up bay Satan -----
We Born Again People are rightly to judge only other Believers who we see going down a wrong path --and we are to do it with Love and gentleness ------and there is protocol in scripture for believers judging other believers ----
1 Corinthians 5:12-13 ESV
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
Galatians 6:1 ESV /
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Galatians 6:1 ESV / 2,566 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
-----SO I say -----just going on our own to judge the unbeliever could get you this -----in my view
While the Church is within the Kingdom of God, there is much more to the Kingdom of God than the Church. The Kingdom of God will encompass the universe, the New Heavens, the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem. The Church will dwell in the New Jerusalem.