The Clash of Theology

[Seeking-Christ]

Theology will destroy friendships, relationships, pull families apart, and split churches. Somehow one person reads the bible and comes up with something so different that someone else doesn't come up with. Soon the people are fighting and then it's over. I used to like theology but now I'm starting to hate it.

 

[Live4Him3]

I hear what you're saying, and I can certainly see how it looks that way, but I think that the real problems are things like PRIDE and stubbornness, and not theology itself.

 

[Seeking-Christ]

I hear what you're saying, and I can certainly see how it looks that way, but I think that the real problems are things like PRIDE and stubbornness, and not theology itself.

I think people could learn how to discuss theology in a kinder way. But I think the reason why people aren't kind is because they think they got it all figured out. In other words their theology is correct, and unless they can convince you that their view is correct then your going to hell. They don't want to be around a hell bound person. Because a hell bound person is a bad person.

I grew up believing in the Trinity. Then I met two people that believes in the Oneness of God. This caused me to read two books. One for the Trinity and one against it. I found out that this argument isn't simple. I came to the conclusion, that as long as a person relies on Jesus for salvation, then believing or not believing in the Trinity theory doesn't matter. But there are some Oneness people that I think are completely lost. They are the ones who don't believe that Jesus is God. If one does not believe that Jesus is God, then how can Jesus save them?

Anyways I won't debate the Trinity and Oneness because it is over my head. I know just enough to know what I believe and that is it.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Theology will destroy friendships, relationships, pull families apart, and split churches. Somehow one person reads the bible and comes up with something so different that someone else doesn't come up with. Soon the people are fighting and then it's over. I used to like theology but now I'm starting to hate it.

You're correct, discussions on theology, religious/Christian beliefs, end up badly. In essence because, "It's my way or the highway".

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello @Seeking-Christ, the thing that is rarely remembered is how much we often share in common (about the faith) with the very ones with whom we are arguing (about this point or that).

Of all of the churches within orthodox/conservative Christendom, I am probably furthest from the Roman Catholics in my beliefs, yet I stand in lockstep with them in 85-90% of what they believe. These differences are seen most clearly in a place like this, where we are discussing "theoretical" Christianity, but FAR less so in practical/ rubber meeting the road Christianity (where we are ministering/living our faith out in service to others). I saw this both firsthand and regularly in an ecumenical prison ministry that I was part of for years, and it was truly a wonder to behold

Also, the denomination that I am part of now, the Evangelical Free Church of America, has (I believe) wisely chosen to take a neutral stance on many of the ongoing, controversial issues of the Christian faith (those which are "hot topics" among believers, that is .. e.g. Calvinism and Arminianism), allowing our local churches and/or our individual congregants to believe as they feel led to believe by the Holy Spirit.

Just to be clear, all of these "hot topics" (that we take a neutral position on at the denominational level) are ones that have been so for centuries or millennia within the church (they were and continue to be so because, typically, a strong, Biblical case can be made for them on both sides of the controversy). As such, I have learned to not be such a "brick head" about what I believe to be true.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with our choice to strongly believe one side or the other of a controversial topic, and explaining why we do to others too, but we must not allow these beliefs to separate us from each other in Christ, especially when they can articulate a strong Biblical case for believing what they do as well (there is nothing wrong with continuing to try to convince them otherwise, of course, as long as we ~always~ choose to do so with gentleness and reverence, that is .. e.g. 1 Peter 3:15; Matthew 7:12; 1 Corinthians 13:1 .. you can see all of these verses below in my signature line, just FYI).

One of the wonderful things that has come from this policy (in my local church) has been that profitable discussions have completely replaced the heated debates that many of us used to have

God bless you!!

~Deut
p.s. - perhaps ~you~ could make it your ministry (here/elsewhere) to be the kind of Christian that God wants us to be/that the Bible tells us to be, especially in public, by being an example for us, because that kind of behavior is very contagious (IOW, others will like what they see in you and imitate your approach to the faith). Doing so is not an easy, of course, since the command to ALWAYS treat others as we would want to be treated by them means doing so EVEN if they have been and/or are treating us horribly.
.

 

[Live4Him3]

I think people could learn how to discuss theology in a kinder way. But I think the reason why people aren't kind is because they think they got it all figured out. In other words their theology is correct, and unless they can convince you that their view is correct then your going to hell. They don't want to be around a hell bound person. Because a hell bound person is a bad person.

I grew up believing in the Trinity. Then I met two people that believes in the Oneness of God. This caused me to read two books. One for the Trinity and one against it. I found out that this argument isn't simple. I came to the conclusion, that as long as a person relies on Jesus for salvation, then believing or not believing in the Trinity theory doesn't matter. But there are some Oneness people that I think are completely lost. They are the ones who don't believe that Jesus is God. If one does not believe that Jesus is God, then how can Jesus save them?

Anyways I won't debate the Trinity and Oneness because it is over my head. I know just enough to know what I believe and that is it.

Whatever the particular topic of debate might be, I think that it's best to compile all that the Bible has to say on that topic and then look at all of it as a whole. If we do that, then I believe that there will be many black and white verses which obviously teach one thing and possibly a few grey verses which could go either way. In such cases, go with the black and white verses because even the grey verses align with them.

One reason for the divisions is that people pick and choose which verses to look at while deliberately ignoring others. This is how cults operate, and this is the basis for many books that are written as well. In other words, they're biased towards one particular opinion right from the start, and they'll therefore only cite the verses which match their predetermined opinion while selling it to the gullible and undiscerning as if it were the whole of what the Bible has to say on the matter.

Personally, I've read the entire Bible from cover to cover many times, and I've read several books of the Bible 100 times or more. Things either totally fit or totally don't fit, and nobody is going to pull the wool over my eyes.

Anyhow, thank God for the "ignore" button.

I'm up to five members so far, and the total is rising.

Some people are simply incorrigible.

Again, the problem isn't theology itself.

It's PROUD and stubborn people.

 

[Deuteronomy]

I think people could learn how to discuss theology in a kinder way. But I think the reason why people aren't kind is because they think they got it all figured out. In other words their theology is correct, and unless they can convince you that their view is correct then your going to hell.

I agree. In fact, I think that all believers should learn how to do that (discuss theology in a kinder way, that is).

It often seems to me that people are here just to win an argument, rather than patiently/lovingly persuade others about the truth (or to be open and learn/be lovingly persuaded themselves about what the truth really is ).

~Deut

 

[Live4Him3]

I agree. It often seems that people are here to win an argument, rather than patiently/lovingly persuade others about the truth (or to be lovingly persuaded about what the truth really is, themselves ).

~Deut

And why would people be here (or elsewhere) to win an argument?

In a single word, PRIDE.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Sadly brother, I agree Isn't "pride" referred to as the "the great sin" in Lewis' Mere Christianity

 

[Live4Him3]

Sadly brother, I agree Isn't "pride" referred to as the "the great sin" in Lewis' Mere Christianity

I've never read any of Lewis' works, so I don't know.

I do know, however, that "leaven", which is a rising agent, is symbolic of sin in the Bible, and PRIDE definitely causes one to "rise up" in rebellion against God. In my estimation, PRIDE is the foundation for every type of sin imaginable in that every type of sin is an exaltation of man's ways (with Satan doing the inspiring) above God's ways.

 

[Deuteronomy]

It is Lewis who refers to pride as, "The Great Sin" (in fact, one of the chapters of Mere Christianity .. in section three on Christian Behavior) is named, "The Great Sin"). It's too long to paste it all in here, but here are the opening two paragraphs if you'd care to read them (you and C S Lewis seem to be in agreement).

The Great Sin​

​

I now come to that part of Christian morals where they differ most sharply from all other morals. There is one vice of which no man in the world is free; which every one in the world loathes when he sees it in someone else; and of which hardly any people, except Christians, ever imagine that they are guilty themselves. I have heard people admit that they are bad-tempered, or that they cannot keep their heads about girls or drink, or even that they are cowards. I do not think I have ever heard anyone who was not a Christian accuse himself of this vice. And at the same time I have very seldom met anyone, who was not a Christian, who showed the slightest mercy to it in others. There is no fault which makes a man more unpopular, and no fault which we are more unconscious of in ourselves. And the more we have it ourselves, the more we dislike it in others. ​

​

The vice I am talking of is Pride or Self-Conceit: and the virtue opposite to it, in Christian morals, is called Humility. You may remember, when I was talking about sexual morality, I warned you that the centre of Christian morals did not lie there. Well, now, we have come to the centre. According to Christian teachers, the essential vice, the utmost evil, is Pride. Unchastity, anger, greed, drunkenness, and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind. ~Lewis, C. S.. Mere Christianity​

~Deut
p.s. - all of Mere Christianity is a worthy/great read, and if you'd care to read it, you can do so online now for free, here
.

 

[Live4Him3]

It is Lewis who refers to pride as, "The Great Sin" (in fact, one of the chapters of Mere Christianity .. in section three on Christian Behavior) is named, "The Great Sin"). It's too long to paste it all in here, but here are the opening two paragraphs if you'd care to read them (you and C S Lewis seem to be in agreement).

​

The Great Sin​

​

I now come to that part of Christian morals where they differ most sharply from all other morals. There is one vice of which no man in the world is free; which every one in the world loathes when he sees it in someone else; and of which hardly any people, except Christians, ever imagine that they are guilty themselves. I have heard people admit that they are bad-tempered, or that they cannot keep their heads about girls or drink, or even that they are cowards. I do not think I have ever heard anyone who was not a Christian accuse himself of this vice. And at the same time I have very seldom met anyone, who was not a Christian, who showed the slightest mercy to it in others. There is no fault which makes a man more unpopular, and no fault which we are more unconscious of in ourselves. And the more we have it ourselves, the more we dislike it in others. ​

​

The vice I am talking of is Pride or Self-Conceit: and the virtue opposite to it, in Christian morals, is called Humility. You may remember, when I was talking about sexual morality, I warned you that the centre of Christian morals did not lie there. Well, now, we have come to the centre. According to Christian teachers, the essential vice, the utmost evil, is Pride. Unchastity, anger, greed, drunkenness, and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind. ~Lewis, C. S.. Mere Christianity​

~Deut
p.s. - all of Mere Christianity is a worthy/great read, and if you'd care to read it, you can do so online now for free, here
.

Thanks for sharing this.

 

[Seeking-Christ]

I've never read any of Lewis' works, so I don't know.

I do know, however, that "leaven", which is a rising agent, is symbolic of sin in the Bible, and PRIDE definitely causes one to "rise up" in rebellion against God. In my estimation, PRIDE is the foundation for every type of sin imaginable in that every type of sin is an exaltation of man's ways (with Satan doing the inspiring) above God's ways.

Man you haven't read C.S. Lewis? Your missing out. I got a lot of his books on audio, and there are lots more that i don't have. I like him but He's deep. Deep logical and Christian thought.

 

[Seeking-Christ]

I agree. In fact, I think that all believers should learn how to do that (discuss theology in a kinder way, that is).

It often seems to me that people are here just to win an argument, rather than patiently/lovingly persuade others about the truth (or to be open and learn/be lovingly persuaded themselves about what the truth really is ).

~Deut

I don't mind being persuaded. If the person is going to be loving and patient with me. There is a saying that I've heard a lot. "People don't care what you know until they know how much you care." In other words, "If you don't love me first, then why should i care about what you got to say?" What if I feel that I need to reject what your saying. Are you still going to love me? See I think our problem here often times, is we don't love each other enough. When love is real, you can yell at each other and still love each other. But now days the moment someone gets upset, then it's bye bye. The love isn't real.

John 13

33 “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

36 Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?”

Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”

37 Peter asked, “Lord, why can’t I follow you now? I will lay down my life for you.”

38 Then Jesus answered, “Will you really lay down your life for me? Very truly I tell you, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times!

 

[Live4Him3]

Man you haven't read C.S. Lewis? Your missing out. I got a lot of his books on audio, and there are lots more that i don't have. I like him but He's deep. Deep logical and Christian thought.

I haven't really read any book but the Bible for about the last 30 years or so.

This is NOT a shot at Lewis (his writings may all be fine...I honestly don't know), but it's definitely a shot at a lot of books that are out there.

Many years ago, I enrolled in a Bible college which promoted itself as being led by the Holy Spirit. Well, my first day there, they instructed all of us that we needed to purchase 10 books by different alleged "Christian authors" which were going to be the basis for our studies. I was like "WHAT?!?" I thought that this was A BIBLE COLLEGE. Needless to say, I didn't purchase any of the books because I knew some of the authors to be heretics. I only lasted at that "college' for about 2 1/2 weeks.

Personally, I'll stick with my Bible. I know that it is the inspired word of God which has never led me in the wrong direction, and I'll never accept any substitutes or replacements for it.

Ecclesiastes chapter 12

[8] Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
[9] And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
[10] The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
[11] The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
[12] And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
[14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Here's an honest and sincere question for you or anybody else following this thread:

With all of the so-called "Christian books" that are out there (and some of them are REALLY "out there"), do you honestly believe that the average professing "Christian" truly FEARS GOD WHILE SEEKING TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS?

I don't.

In fact, I'd say that the number one problem plaguing the entire world, which includes the vast majority of professing Christendom, is the lack of the fear of God.

Even on this website, I've watched IN HORROR as professing "Christian" after professing "Christian" has sought to explain it away.

Anyhow, I'll stick with my Bible, and the God who inspired it.

 

[EternalFire]

In fact, I'd say that the number one problem plaguing the entire world, which includes the vast majority of professing Christendom, is the lack of the fear of God.

Amen to fearing the LORD: "By the fear of the LORD one turns away from evil" (Proverbs 16:6).

 

[arthurfleminger]

Man you haven't read C.S. Lewis? Your missing out. I got a lot of his books on audio, and there are lots more that i don't have. I like him but He's deep. Deep logical and Christian thought.

You are correct. C S Lewis is well worth the read, he is very logical and biblical about his Christian theology.

He was an atheist, who converted to Christianity, was the great protestant thinker and writer, C.S. Lewis. In his book, "Mere Christianity" he logically answers Jesus question to all people, "Who do you say that I AM"? Lewis wrote out his logic for accepting Jesus as God. He wrote, “Jesus claimed to be God, so there are only two possibilities, either He is God or He is not God.” There are no other possibilities.

He added, if Jesus is not God, then we are left with two options: He either knows that He is not God and is a liar, or he is a lunatic and mistakenly thinks that He is God.

If Jesus was a liar, His lies were about the most important things imaginable. For a man to lie about such claims to His friends and followers, He would have to been deeply evil.

Liars tell lies in the pursuit of some gain. So, if Jesus was a liar, for what purpose? What does Jesus gain as a result of His lies? Earthly power? No, when men try to crown Him, He runs away. Status? No, He only wins the admiration of unimportant people; prostitutes, tax collectors, fishermen, along with the undying hatred of powerful men bent on His destruction.

When He is on trial for His life, why would He lie when asked if He is the Christ, the Son of God? He didn’t hesitate. He answered, I AM, (Mark 14:62) thereby inviting crucifixion, the most horrific death known to man. No liar, bent on earthly gain would do this.

So, if Jesus is not God and not a liar, we are left with only one other alternative; He was mistakenly insane. The trouble with this thought is that there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Jesus was insane. Study His interactions with His enemies or His warm conversations with His friends. No one ever thought that He was a deranged man, out of His wits.

So, if Jesus wasn’t a compulsive liar or insane, it begins to look as though there is difficulty in accounting for Jesus in any other way but the way that Peter did. When Jesus asked him, “Who do you say that I AM.” Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

And Jesus asks the same question to all people, throughout time, He asks the same question of you and me, “Who do you say that, I Am?”

ONE FINAL THOUGHT

The Apostles were the people who knew Jesus best. And they believed His claims. They believed so much that they would go out into a world filled with wolves and spread Jesus’ Gospel. Except for John, all of them willingly gave up their lives in martyrdom for their Lord and God.

 

[Eli1]

Welcome to the human condition.
This is why religion gives God a bad name to others Because men turn the word of God into a means to control and judge others and maintain their egos.
Despite this, you should look at the positive sides of every group. This is what Jesus says too.

 

[Deuteronomy]

There is a saying that I've heard a lot. "People don't care what you know until they know how much you care."

Hello again Seeking-Christ, I agree with that quote, and I believe that the Apostle Paul does as well. For instance,

1 Corinthians 13​

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.​

When love is real, you can yell at each other and still love each other.
John 13
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

That may well be true, but the optics are terrible (especially in a place like this one where the world is watching us). So, unless we see that someone is about to step out in front of an oncoming vehicle, or they are unknowingly backing off of a cliff, etc., "yelling" is never going to be understood by anyone as act of "love", IMHO anyway.

This is especially true in places like this one. People "yell" at one another for many reasons around here, impatience, frustration, and/or the desire to win an argument, no matter the cost, etc. (pride), but yelling, as a means of imparting grace and love to another brother or sister in Christ, is something that I've never witnessed (here or on other forums) in the last 20+ years.

While we must be prepared to make a defense of what we believe to anyone who asks us to do so, we are commanded to always do so with both gentleness and respect, EVEN if we are, in fact, being yelled at by them at the time .. 1 Peter 3:15 (see below in my signature line)

Or (when things are really bad), we need to politely excuse ourselves and walk away from the conversation, especially when God/His word are being sullied, and/or when we are .. e.g. Matthew 7:6. Nothing of spiritual/eternal value will come from continuing such a conversation (but leaving and then praying for an opportunity to speak with them again at a later date might ).

Finally, I think that it would be impossible for the watching world to recognize who we are (because of our "love" for one another .. John 13:35) if all they ever see us doing is yelling at one another, yes

God bless you!!

~Deut

Ephesians 4​

29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.​

30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.​

31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.​

32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.​

​

 

[Seeking-Christ]

Hello again Seeking-Christ, I agree with that quote, and I believe that the Apostle Paul does as well. For instance,

1 Corinthians 13​

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.​

That may well be true, but the optics are terrible (especially in a place like this one where the world is watching us). So, unless we see that someone is about to step out in front of an oncoming vehicle, or they are unknowingly backing off of a cliff, etc., "yelling" is never going to be understood by anyone as act of "love", IMHO anyway.

This is especially true in places like this one. People "yell" at one another for many reasons around here, impatience, frustration, and/or the desire to win an argument, no matter the cost, etc. (pride), but yelling, as a means of imparting grace and love to another brother or sister in Christ, is something that I've never witnessed (here or on other forums) in the last 20+ years.

While we must be prepared to make a defense of what we believe to anyone who asks us to do so, we are commanded to always do so with both gentleness and respect, EVEN if we are, in fact, being yelled at by them at the time .. 1 Peter 3:15 (see below in my signature line)

Or (when things are really bad), we need to politely excuse ourselves and walk away from the conversation, especially when God/His word are being sullied, and/or when we are .. e.g. Matthew 7:6. Nothing of spiritual/eternal value will come from continuing such a conversation (but leaving and then praying for an opportunity to speak with them again at a later date might ).

Finally, I think that it would be impossible for the watching world to recognize who we are (because of our "love" for one another .. John 13:35) if all they ever see us doing is yelling at one another, yes

God bless you!!

~Deut

Ephesians 4​

29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.​

30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.​

31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.​

32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.​

​

I'm not saying that we should yell, but I was just trying to make the point that people's relationships are so thin that it doesn't take much of anything to make them fall apart. Everyone has moments when they get angry about something, and then they cool down. But what I've been experiencing is that as soon as someone finds themselves in this situation then the so called friendship is over. People don't want to reconcile. Even in the Christian Church offline, we see marriages falling apart all the time. Why? Everybody is cheating on one another? I kinda doubt cheating is that high. Seems to me it's because people don't know how to get along with each other. But I could be wrong. Anyways I hope you see where I'm coming from.