Who Justifieth the Ungodly

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
you are in denial!
what else is being DEAD to the world and God making us alive but the knocking on our hearts and awakening us?

5 Even when we were dead in our trespasses, He made us alive together with Messiah.

even when you're wrong you refuse to admit to it. PRIDE goeth before the FALL!
You in denial, interjecting your own preconceived notions into scripture.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
No, those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners
You're saying that those who reject God are "absolutely acquitted/absolved : to free from guilt or claim or their consequences". Your erroneous dogma has you believing the lies of the devil.

Those who remain "ungodly sinners" the whole of their lifetime will find themselves facing the lake of fire.




brightfame52 said:
Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Read the verse within the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it:

Romans 4:

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


Romans 4:25 is sandwiched between two verses which make clear God's perspective on faith/believing. God makes clear the error of your dogma.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
Righteousness is imputed before one believes
Nope.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;


The verse states righteousness "shall be imputed" ... not "was in the long distant past imputed" as you erroneously imply.

So again, you're going to have to find another verse to support your claim that "righteousness is imputed before one believes".




so we may say Justification or righteousness is imputed to ones conscience at the time of believing
It is obvious you say whatever you want. I will continue shine the light of Scripture on your faulty interpretations. You'll either believe Scripture or you won't.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Your rendering of Scripture is wholly without merit in light of God's wonderful Word telling us that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.

You continue to believe faith = works when God specifically tells us faith ≠ works. I choose to believe God.




Rom 4:5 is clear, God Justifieth the ungodly
Read the verse again, brightfame52:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The verse states the person believes on Him who justifies the ungodly. The person acknowledges that he/she is ungodly ... and believes God justifies him/her.

You do not believe that. You believe you are "elect" ... you believe you specifically are not part of the whole of ungodly descendants of Adam.




brightfame52 said:
He is not look at their Faith or their believing, but what they are by nature, ungodly.
Read the verse again, brightfame52:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


The verse says his faith is counted for righteousness.

The verse does not state "his ungodliness is counted for righteousness".
.
 
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
Nope.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;


The verse states righteousness "shall be imputed" ... not "was in the long distant past imputed" as you erroneously imply.

So again, you're going to have to find another verse to support your claim that "righteousness is imputed before one believes".





It is obvious you say whatever you want. I will continue shine the light of Scripture on your faulty interpretations. You'll either believe Scripture or you won't.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Your rendering of Scripture is wholly without merit in light of God's wonderful Word telling us that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.

You continue to believe faith = works when God specifically tells us faith ≠ works. I choose to believe God.





Read the verse again, brightfame52:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The verse states the person believes on Him who justifies the ungodly. The person acknowledges that he/she is ungodly ... and believes God justifies him/her.

You do not believe that. You believe you are "elect" ... you believe you specifically are not part of the whole of ungodly descendants of Adam.





Read the verse again, brightfame52:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


The verse says his faith is counted for righteousness.

The verse does not state "his ungodliness is counted for righteousness".
.
You cannot get through to a hard-core Calvinist.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
reneweddaybyday said:
1 Corinthians 1:23-24 tells us the gospel of Christ is the power of God and the Lord Jesus Christ is the wisdom of God.
The Gospel is a Mystery 1 Cor 2:7
Just because 1 Cor 1:24 mentions the wisdom of God, that does not automatically indicate the Author is speaking of hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory (1 Cor 2:7).

1 Cor 1:24 speaks of Christ crucified.

1 Cor 1:24 tells us Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Paul then tells us he did not come to them with excellency of speech or of wisdom (1 Cor 2:1). He spoke to them of Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2) so that their faith would not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God (1 Cor 2:5).

Paul taught Christ crucified to those who were babes in Christ. He fed them with milk and not with meat (1 Cor 3:1-2).

However in 1 Cor 2:6-16, Paul tells us he also taught those who were perfect (vs 6) ... those who were mature. Paul was able to speak of things which comprised the meat of the Word ... spiritual matters which were not suited for those who were still feeding on the milk of the word (i.e. the gospel – Christ crucified).

That you consider the gospel to be more than the milk of the word indicates that you are still in need of feeding on the milk of the word. Strong meat is not suited for you as you still need to grow up and mature so that you will be able to understand the difference between Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:23-24) and the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory (1 Cor 2:7).




The wisdom of God, which is Christ, is hidden wisdom
Nope. While the Lord Jesus Christ is the wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:24), He is certainly not hidden as it is the Lord Jesus Christ Who is revealed in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

Nice try, but no cigar.




brightfame52 said:
2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Please note that 2 Cor 4:3-4 does not state that God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, has blinded the minds of those who do not believe. The verse clearly states those who do not believe are deceived by satan.

And when we continue to read a couple more verses, we see that God has not hidden the Messiah:

2 Corinthians For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.




the Mystery of the Gospel isnt secluded to the Gentile inclusion in the Salvation purpose
It is written

Ephesians 3:

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


When God tells us that what is written in Eph 3:5 was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed, I believe Him.

You choose not to believe and you manipulate Scripture in order to support your dogma. You argue with God about what is the mystery. I will not partake with you in your foolishness.

In your desperate attempts to align Scripture with your dogma, you behave as those we are warned against in 2 Cor 4:2 ... those who are walking in craftiness and who are handling the word of God deceitfully.


You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma does not align, get rid of your error.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
reneweddaybyday said:
there is only one faith:

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism
And you make human natural faith that one faith
:rolleyes: intentionally obtuse.




brightfame52 said:
Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
And I have gone over this verse with you before, brightfame52. Please understand:

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


The purpose of the law is to lead mankind to Messiah. The keeping of the law was never intended as a means of salvation ... salvation is wholly by grace through faith. That is clearly written in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus pointed out that the scribes and pharisees were trying to keep the law in an attempt to gain salvation and, in so doing, they missed the whole point of the law because the law pointed to their need for Him.




brightfame52 said:
So you are bound to keep the law for salvation
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.




what you are doing, trying to keep the law by making human faith a requirement for Justification before God.
There is only one faith. You continue to rattle on and on about "human faith" as if "human faith" is truth (it isn't). Faith is faith and Scripture tells us there is only one faith.

Try believing Scripture over your erroneous dogma and watch God work in your heart to increase what little faith you do have so that your faith grows strong in Him and in His power to bring you from faith to faith.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
reneweddaybyday said:
You have clearly stated "Faith is required under the Law"
Yes human faith is required, it ought to be done
Scripture tells us faith is not works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


I didn't write the book. I just believe what the Author of Scripture wrote.

That you have a problem with what is written is between you and God ... the Author of Scripture.

You want to make faith "required under the Law"? Have at it. At that point, you change Rom 4:4 and you do not receive the reward through grace ... you receive of debt. Have fun with that!




brightfame52 said:
I didnt say it, Jesus did Matt 23:23 isnt me talking but Jesus speaking :

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done,and not to leave the other undone.

So you put yourself under the law
Your complete and utter misinterpretation of Scripture does not affect me in the least.

However, you are in deep trouble since you believe "human faith" is "faith must be in accordance with the law":

Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect


Do not attempt to align Scripture with your erroneous dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma conflicts with Scripture, rid yourself of your dogma.

.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,166
29,467
113
Nothing here about God knocking on the heart of the dead in sin, nothing at all. Thats your unwise zealous imposition !
you are in denial!
what else is being DEAD to the world and God making us alive but the knocking on our hearts and awakening us?

5 Even when we were dead in our trespasses, He made us alive together with Messiah.

even when you're wrong you refuse to admit to it. PRIDE goeth before the FALL!

Isaiah 45:22 + Revelation 3:20
:)
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
reneweddaybyday said:
The "it" referred to in Romans 4:16 is the promise to Abraham which is through the righteousness of faith (Rom 4:13)
There you go again, making human faith to be righteousness.
faith is faith. There is only one faith.




brightfame52 said:
So you advocate Justification by doing what is required by law.
nope ... your continual manipulation of Scripture in order to substantiate your erroneous belief that "faith is required under the law" and "faith must be in accordance with the law" is nothing but balderdash.

Your statements are wholly unsubstantiated in Scripture. However, I'm sure your erroneous dogma fully embraces "faith is required under the law" and "faith must be in accordance with the law".




brightfame52 said:
I told you what the It was and is, you ignored it.
All you have told me is your erroneous dogma. here's a newsflash for ya, brightfame52 ... your erroneous dogma is not Scripture.

Romans 4:

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

...

16 Therefore it is of faith [the promise to Abraham in vs 13], that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,




reneweddaybyday said:
For you to conclude that faith = law, you are stating righteousness comes through the law and if righteousness comes through the law, then faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect (Rom 4:14).
I didnt conclude that
You sure did when you claimed "faith is required under the law" and "faith must be in accordance with the law".




brightfame52 said:
Jesus said human faith is of the Law
You saying Jesus said "human faith is of the law" is wholly due to your manipulation of Scripture. Quit reading Scripture through the lens of your erroneous dogma.




brightfame52 said:
Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Your misinterpretation of Scripture does not in any way, shape or form make faith = law. You, in your obstinate rejection of Scripture have made the promise of none effect for you and others who follow your dogma:

Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect




brightfame52 said:
Man naturally is in Adam and therefore required to obey God perfectly.
The sole purpose of the law is to bring mankind to Messiah because justification is, always has been, and always will be, through faith ....


Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
John is saying that those who received/believed on Christ had been born of God.
Read the verses again, brightfame52:

John 1:

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


vs 12 – first they received Him ... actively laid hold on Him (the Lord Jesus Christ);

vs 12 – then they are given power to become sons of God


Note that the verses do not say they "had been born of God" before they "received/believed on Christ" as you erroneously claim.


What John 1:12-13 tells us is that when the Lord Jesus Christ came to His own (speaking of when He lived in His physical body) those who "actively [laid] hold of to take or receive" the Lord Jesus Christ were given power to become the sons of God.

Please note the verse does not state that those who "actively lay hold of to take or receive" the Lord Jesus Christ are given "power to believe" as you erroneously claim.

Those who "actively lay hold of to take or receive" are given power to become the sons of God.

So your conclusion concerning John 1:12-13 is faulty and you have yet to prove that "a person is born again prior to believing the Gospel of Christ"

Scripture does not teach "that a person is born again prior to believing the Gospel of Christ":

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

After you heard, you believed.

After you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (born again)
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
you base Justification before God on your works
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness


The verse clearly states believing is not works.

Yet you claim I "base justification on ... works".

Furthermore, the verse clearly states righteousness is imputed to those who believe on Him that justifieth.

Since it is God Who justifies, and I believe in Him, clearly I am not believing in "my works".

Since I base justification on that which God clearly states is not works, and I believe in God Who justifies, then it is you who needs to seek out from God what God means when He tells us faith is not works and what God means when He tells us to believe on Him Who justifies and He will impute righteousness to those who believe.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
Sins are forgiven before a person believes
According to Scripture, righteousness is imputed when a person believes:

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Scripture does not state "before Abraham believe God it was counted unto him for righteousness".
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
as unbelievers Rom 8:33 cannot apply to them, and if that is so, Isa 53:6 cannot apply neither
Both Romans 8:33 and Isaiah 53:6 apply to the believer.

Isaiah 53:6 applies because the verse relates to all descendants of Adam (all mankind) … All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 8:33 applies to the believer because the verse is speaking of those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit (Rom 8:23) ... which is to be born again ... no one can lay anything to the charge of the born again one.

Those who reject Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, will have no excuse because God has provided to mankind all that is needed in order to live from faith to faith.

.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
ForestGreenCook said:
According to 1 Cor 2:14, the natural man, before he has been born again, will not, and indeed, can not repent of breaking one of God's spiritual laws that he cannot discern, and thinks it to be foolishness.
this has nothing to do when God knocks on the heart of natural man and he repents.
Exactly.




God doesnt knock on the door of the wicked, deceitful natural human heart
...

The old human heart is uncircumcised and is at enmity to the word of God Acts 7:51

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
:rolleyes: if, as you claim, "God doesn’t knock on the door of the wicked, deceitful natural human heart", then there would be no reason to "resist the Holy Ghost" as stated in Acts 7:51 because (according to you) the Holy Spirit "doesn't knock on the door of the wicked, deceitful, natural human heart".
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
it makes the evil of unbelief a charge that can be laid upon them
:rolleyes:

Excerpt from "What is the unpardonable sin / unforgivable sin?"

The only unpardonable sin today is that of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in his rejection of Christ. The Holy Spirit is at work in the world, convicting the unsaved of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8). If a person resists that conviction and remains unrepentant, then he is choosing hell over heaven. “Without faith it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6), and the object of faith is Jesus (Acts 16:31). There is no forgiveness for someone who dies without faith in Christ. God has provided for our salvation in His Son (John 3:16). Forgiveness is found exclusively in Jesus (John 14:6). To reject the only Savior is to be left with no means of salvation; to reject the only pardon is, obviously, unpardonable.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
And Im getting back to Justifying the ungodly.
would to God you actually were going to approach this subject in a true Scriptural workmanlike manner.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
You cannot get through to a hard-core Calvinist.
yes, I know. It is God Who works in the heart and I leave that to Him. brightfame52 will have no excuse when standing before God to give an account.

Hope/pray all is well with you, VARob.

.