Where are Our Prophets

[apwall21]

You're asking God's will be done so long as it conforms to your idea of what He should be doing. At least that's how I'm reading what you've said up to this point. You believe we should accept that everyone who is born again will receive the gift of prophecy. .

First, I want you to recognize that there is still a place for Prophecy.
Then, lets talk about who gets that.
Do you understand Paul when he tells you that you will have Gifts available?
Do you understand Jesus when he tells you that you will do Greater Things than Jesus did?

Those are the best starting points I have from what you tell me is your guidebook.

 

[ResidentAlien]

First, I want you to recognize that there is still a place for Prophecy.
Then, lets talk about who gets that.

Of course I believe there's still a place for prophecy. Why wouldn't I? So who gets it?

 

[apwall21]

=

...unless Jesus allowed him to. Satan had to ask permission to try Job as well.

How did Satan get that permission?
"One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
skipping the discussion of God on Job (though it's kinda funny He baited Satan, if I wasn't also in this mortal form with desire to stay alive) and Satan's desires.
The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

So then, the very presence of God is not sufficient to drive out Satan. And this means, there is something else. I would consider "else" as authority.
So can one show authority simply by being in a place? I do imagine so.
Can one show will simply by sitting still? Yes, I think you might.
Can one communicate without speaking? I imagine so.
What was the very nature of Jesus? A Word.

 

[apwall21]

have you figured out how God speaks to you?
whether you are praying, reading the Word, driving down the highway, walking the dog, shopping, out and about and God speaks to you, do you know when/how He personally speaks to you and you know it is God and not your own self?

I think this is the question that ResidentAlien is asking, and I will admit my shortcoming on this as well.
There are counterfits in this world, and with technology, ever more counterfits growing.

 

[presidente]

Prophesy is simply "the word of the Lord, or of God" .

'Prophesy' is a verb pronounced with a long 'i' sound at the end, as opposed to the noun 'prophecy' which has a short 'i' sound at the end.

Paul treats prophesying, teaching, and exhortation as different gifts in Romans 12. Prophets and teachers are two separate roles in I Corinthians 12.

Genuine propheshing involves speaking a message God has given the prophet to speak, under the leading of the Spirit. Teachers may expound upon revelation God has given in the past.

 

[presidente]

Why are you not satisfied with the prophecies already given in the Bible? Do you wish to have your ears tickled?

We should believe and obey the Bible which says 'covet to prophesy' and 'despise not prophesyings.' These are scriptures written to the church, to believers, after the resurrection of Christ and the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost.

 

[presidente]

Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12, at least, that Prophecy is a Gift of The Spirit.
the message of wisdom, the message of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in various tongues, interpretation of tongues. "All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, who apportions them to each one as He determines."

In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul tells us that he wants us to seek Prophecy above all other gifts.
"Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.... the one who prophesies edifies the church. ...
Tongues... are a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers....

But if an unbeliever or uninstructed person comes in while everyone is prophesying, he will be convicted and called to account by all, and the secrets of his heart will be made known. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!”

Has this been true of Our Worship? This was the epitome according to Paul. Which churches are currently teaching that the members interrupt the Pastor when they receive a revelation during the "service"? Why are "western" churches denouncing the very idea of prophecy, such that anyone who points to the bible instead of their own thoughts, is accused of "Trying to be some prophet!"

I can't remember anyone at church denouncing prophets in that way, but I tend to go to churches that believe in the gift.

Mutually Edifying Meetings with Multiple Speakers in Scripture
There is one rather lengthy chapter that deals with what to do in church when it comes to the idea of 'speaking' type ministry. That is I Corinthians 14. The chapter, which you quote, indicates that the church had meetings in which regular members of the assembly would sing, teach, share revelations, speak in tongues, and interpret. Paul puts adds some order to this regarding speaking in tongues, interpretation, and prophesying, in the verses that follow. Paul implies his instructions align with universal church practice and calls them 'commandments of the Lord'.

No Instruction Regarding the One Pastor Leading the Church Meeting and the Long Sermon in Scripture
There is no reference in this passage, or any other passage. that deals with church meeting order to either a long sermon or a 'pastor.', aside from the Lord, that is. We should not read contemporary church practice back into scripture, assuming that it's teachings align with our experience. The KJV mentions 'pastors' once in Ephesians 4:11. It does not say that 'pastors and teachers' are the sole speakers in churches. Acts and the epistles mention the role of overseers. The apostles appointed more than one in every church (in every city). Acts 20:28 tells the elders of the church to pastor the church of God over whom God has made them bishops/overseers. I Peter 5 tells elders to pastor the flock of God. Those appointed as overseers are to be 'apt to teach', and it is commendable for elders to give themselves to preaching and teaching.

Exhort __One Another__
But Romans 12 teaches that the one gifted to teach should teach, and does not limit this to ordained elders/overseers. I Peter 4 tells readers to use gifts to minister to one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak.... Some believers gifts involve speaking the word of God, and we should be faithful with our gifts. The one passage used to tell people to 'Go to church' actually says not to forsake assembling. in the context of provoking one another to love and to good works, it says not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is but to exhort one another

Some Churches Do Have Prophesying
In my experience growing up, the Pentecostal churches I went to did allow for prophesying and tongues and interpretation 'from the floor' in church meetings. Many churches still do. They incorporate this into the church meeting along with the traditional protestant role of the pastor and the sermon. I have never seen a prophecy interrupt a sermon that I recall.

Usually, it went like this, during the singing, between songs, it would get quiet and someone would give a prophecy or else a tongue which would be followed by an interpretation. Often, this is spoken in the first person on behalf of God. Sometimes it is quotes or paraphrases from scripture, sometimes different scriptures, applied for the congregation. It's not always a quote from the Bible. I have heard either interpretation or prophecy like this that answered a question I as just thinking, which piqued my attention.

If you talk to people who prophesy or get interpretations of tongues, sometimes someone else will beat them to the punch and give the same prophesy or interpretation. Other people just get the first part of it and the rest comes out when they start.

Sometimes people get what are dubbed as 'personal prophecies' . These are prophecies directed toward individuals or about individuals. We see examples of this in scripture, like with Jeroboam or Paul. I Corinthians 14 mentions the hypothetical case of the unbeliever or unlearned coming in and all prophesying, making manifest the secrets of his heart.

Some prophecies like this do touch on details of the life of the person receiving the personal prophesy. It can be rather shocking and surprising to the individual who hears this. I have also experienced going to one city and someone prophesies over me and another city and someone else prophesies that same thing. I think Paul may have also, since Paul said the Spirit testified in every city that bonds and imprisonment awaited him.

 

[Nehemiah6]

We should believe and obey the Bible which says 'covet to prophesy' and 'despise not prophesyings.' These are scriptures written to the church, to believers, after the resurrection of Christ and the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost.

Prophecies are direct revelations from God for all people everywhere. They are already found in Scripture. The prophets are with us in the written Word of God.

 

[apwall21]

Prophecies are direct revelations from God for all people everywhere. They are already found in Scripture. The prophets are with us in the written Word of God.

This clearly disputes how Paul describes a church full of prophets in 1 Corinthians 24-25

24But if an unbeliever or uninstructed person comes in while everyone is prophesying, he will be convicted and called to account by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be made known. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!”

 

[Mission21]

Usually, it went like this, during the singing, between songs, it would get quiet and someone would give a prophecy or else a tongue which would be followed by an interpretation. Often, this is spoken in the first person on behalf of God. Sometimes it is quotes or paraphrases from scripture, sometimes different scriptures, applied for the congregation. It's not always a quote from the Bible. I have heard either interpretation or prophecy like this that answered a question I as just thinking, which piqued my attention.

Good point/post.
--
I had similar experience..at the meetings.
- Concerning..'the interpretation of tongues & prophecy.'

 

[ResidentAlien]

This clearly disputes how Paul describes a church full of prophets in 1 Corinthians 24-25

24But if an unbeliever or uninstructed person comes in while everyone is prophesying, he will be convicted and called to account by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be made known. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!”

In 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, he's making a hypothetical argument. He isn't suggesting all should actually prophecy; he's just saying that if there were a scenario where everyone either spoke in tongues or prophesied, prophecy would be preferable.

But we know he doesn't mean it literally because of 1 Corinthians 12:29: "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?" These are rhetorical questions and the answer is obviously no.

 

[oyster67]

the very presence of God is not sufficient to drive out Satan.

This is an odd statement and I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

God is omnipotent and sovereign. He is sufficient in every way.

 

[apwall21]

This is an odd statement and I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

God is omnipotent and sovereign. He is sufficient in every way.

Why, then, is Satan able to be before him? It's not a question of sufficiency or power.
It seems we have a misunderstanding of Holiness's capability in Heaven.

 

[oyster67]

Why, then, is Satan able to be before him?

We will all stand before our Maker one Day. God has not sprayed Himself with "people repellent."

God created Satan. They are not strangers.

Holiness's capability

God is the very definition of holiness.

 

[apwall21]

In 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, he's making a hypothetical argument. He isn't suggesting all should actually prophecy; he's just saying that if there were a scenario where everyone either spoke in tongues or prophesied, prophecy would be preferable.

But we know he doesn't mean it literally because of 1 Corinthians 12:29: "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?" These are rhetorical questions and the answer is obviously no.

At which point does he say
"and so, brethern, the Penteteauch and the scrolls of the Prophets are good enough for eternity, now tell each other that no more prophecy may exist?"
He doesn't, let's make that clear, if it's not.

To reply to you and Oyster, on this, I want to add something that Paul wrote, which struck me the other day.
1 Corinthians 12, ,
"7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in various tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit,"

So those who say that this is "available to all immediately," may be correct in a fashion, since the Holy Spirit, and its fruits, is the evidence in our lives of our Salvation. If all of us have the same Spirit as Jesus, then we all have access to this, from the moment we are given to the Holy Spirit, or CAN. And this is where i'm unclear.
Jesus says all who ask receive. In a body of believers, perhaps our return on our request is from a fellow believer. But in our own lives, perhaps the same gifts really are available to each?
Maybe the difference between 1 Corinthians 12, and the speaking of Jesus that God gives to all that ask, is specifically that Paul is using a ton of pages in this letter, to describe, specifically, what happens during Love Feasts, or the gathering of the Saints.
He's not saying you won't have the gift of healing from the moment you get the Holy Spirit, he's saying you'll each be appointed different tasks on a day, maybe, as God wills.

 

[apwall21]

We will all stand before our Maker one Day. God has not sprayed Himself with "people repellent."

God created Satan. They are not strangers.

Yes, Satan is a spiritual being, however, with different codes for their sector of Heaven and Earth.

God is the very definition of holiness.

This only further sustains that the simple presence of people filled with the Holy Spirit may not be enough for all tasks. If Satan was able to be in God's presence, even if God had made orders that he must, then it seems possible Satan is not immediately cast out when Christians are around.

 

[ResidentAlien]

At which point does he say
"and so, brethern, the Penteteauch and the scrolls of the Prophets are good enough for eternity, now tell each other that no more prophecy may exist?"
He doesn't, let's make that clear, if it's not.

To reply to you and Oyster, on this, I want to add something that Paul wrote, which struck me the other day.
1 Corinthians 12, ,
"7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in various tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit,"

So those who say that this is "available to all immediately," may be correct in a fashion, since the Holy Spirit, and its fruits, is the evidence in our lives of our Salvation. If all of us have the same Spirit as Jesus, then we all have access to this, from the moment we are given to the Holy Spirit, or CAN. And this is where i'm unclear.
Jesus says all who ask receive. In a body of believers, perhaps our return on our request is from a fellow believer. But in our own lives, perhaps the same gifts really are available to each?
Maybe the difference between 1 Corinthians 12, and the speaking of Jesus that God gives to all that ask, is specifically that Paul is using a ton of pages in this letter, to describe, specifically, what happens during Love Feasts, or the gathering of the Saints.
He's not saying you won't have the gift of healing from the moment you get the Holy Spirit, he's saying you'll each be appointed different tasks on a day, maybe, as God wills.

Whatever. You're not making any sense. I'm done talking to you.

 

[oyster67]

This only further sustains that the simple presence of people filled with the Holy Spirit may not be enough for all tasks. If Satan was able to be in God's presence, even if God had made orders that he must, then it seems possible Satan is not immediately cast out when Christians are around.

All things happen according to God's will. Man's role is to simply to surrender and yield to it. Men have never casted out demons. God does all these things, and He can use us as a channel if He so chooses.

John 15:5

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

 

[apwall21]

All things happen according to God's will. Man's role is to simply to surrender and yield to it. Men have never casted out demons. God does all these things, and He can use us as a channel if He so chooses.

John 15:5

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

But only where we are willing to act with it, as Paul notes, the spirit of Prophecy, as part of the Holy Spirit, is still under the control of the prophet. Which suggests that we are able to stand idle, when we should be talking.
And if God or Jesus are not enough to immediately beat Satan, but instead he is defeated by The Word, then Prophecy for Every Believer seems way more important than Exposition on scripture, while I can find dozens of schools on Biblical Education, and none on Prophecy.

 

[oyster67]

But only where we are willing to act with it, as Paul notes, the spirit of Prophecy, as part of the Holy Spirit, is still under the control of the prophet. Which suggests that we are able to stand idle, when we should be talking.
And if God or Jesus are not enough to immediately beat Satan, but instead he is defeated by The Word, then Prophecy for Every Believer seems way more important than Exposition on scripture, while I can find dozens of schools on Biblical Education, and none on Prophecy.

God can use a donkey to prophecy if He so chooses. Just yield your all to Jesus and you will be fine, my brother.

There is no need to grasp for magic wands.