One of the best videos on tongues I've seen

[The_Watchers_2017]

tongues tongues tongues are easy to fake

Love or charity is not

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


1Co_14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

AMEN!
they are indeed easy to FAKE!
which is why i only Speak in Tongues when I pray because i believe what Paul instructed in


1 Corinthians
2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

14:2 For he that speaks in a tongue speaks not to men, but to God; for no one understands, though in spirit he speaks mysteries;

 

[DavidTree]

just to expand upon your thoughts here from what i have witnessed of RA.

I don't think it is coincidence at all, but purposed by God, that the Apostle John survived until the first of the Second Century. during this time, he made Disciples of Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, Mathetes, Papias, and Ireneaus. these were also known as the First of the Church Fathers. and they, along with others to come wrote the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are ACTIVE until the Second Coming and we see God face to face.

now knowing this, these men [connected] to the Apostle John, who would know if the Gifts would remain active or not (plus wrote last Book that some [Cessasionist] claims = the Perfect has Come)...still clearly taught his own Disciples the Gifts end when Jesus Returns.

we have this access to the History of the Church and people still refuse it!

they clearly are BLINDED!

God has BLINDED them.

maybe they are not really Believers in God, since Jesus did say on Judgement Day "MANY will say LORD LORD we did this/that in Your Name and Jesus said He would reply, I NEVER KNEW YOU YOU [[((WORKERS OF INIQUITY))]].

to me, denying Facts like the Church Fathers connected to the Apostle John have to offer and then declaring the Gifts have ended is indeed WORKERS OF INIQUITY!

but as far as RA is concerned, he seems to deny Fact! so, not sure how to categorize him. not my place to judge him, but in Discerning him, it seems rather obvious!

Thank you for your post.

The EXACT Timing of the "ceasing" of Holy Spirit Gifts was CLEARLY given in His Word.
There is ZERO dispute on this except from those of unbelief and hard hearts.
We do not need any writings from '"church fathers" concerning this, for if we refuse to believe "it is written" then our faith and trust is in man and not God.

Peace

 

[shittim]

Watchers- Thank you again for this illumination, I have another area to explore.
I, as well, am blessed and grow greatly from the Divine prayer language, I notice over and over when this is mentioned the discussion is twisted and goes to the public expression, which I seldom ever see or am exposed to. But then, I only go where He wants me to go, and I only do what He wants me to do. Those who speak of being in services and hearing and seeing what to them is not of God may have violated this first principle of obedience.
bless you

 

[ResidentAlien]

Point 3: The gift of tongues is not for everyone.

"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by [the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

The Holy Spirit gives the different gifts as He wills. Not everyone had the gift of tongues back then and neither is it scriptural to expect that everyone today should have the gift. Something else in this passage warrants comment. V. 10 says: ". . . to another different kinds of tongues." The gift is the ability to speak different languages, not an angelic language. If we take out the word "different" which is italicized in the KJV and NKJV, we still have "kinds of tongues." That is, a variety of languages. They weren't speaking "angelic," but different human languages which required and interpreter to interpret. If they were speaking "angelic," and the gift of tongues was the ability to hear in one's own native tongue, there would be no need for interpretation.

"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" 1 Corinthians 12:29-30

Obviously the answer is no.

 

[DavidTree]

Point 3: The gift of tongues is not for everyone.

"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by [the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

The Holy Spirit gives the different gifts as He wills. Not everyone had the gift of tongues back then and neither is it scriptural to expect that everyone today should have the gift. Something else in this passage warrants comment. V. 10 says: ". . . to another different kinds of tongues." The gift is the ability to speak different languages, not an angelic language. If we take out the word "different" which is italicized in the KJV and NKJV, we still have "kinds of tongues." That is, a variety of languages. They weren't speaking "angelic," but different human languages which required and interpreter to interpret. If they were speaking "angelic," and the gift of tongues was the ability to hear in one's own native tongue, there would be no need for interpretation.

"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" 1 Corinthians 12:29-30

Obviously the answer is no.

Very Good - you finally accept a 'part' of 1 Corinthians.

Now go further in faith and believe all that is written in it for your edification, admonition and understanding.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Thank you for your post.

The EXACT Timing of the "ceasing" of Holy Spirit Gifts was CLEARLY given in His Word.
There is ZERO dispute on this except from those of unbelief and hard hearts.
We do not need any writings from '"church fathers" concerning this, for if we refuse to believe "it is written" then our faith and trust is in man and not God.

Peace

Agreed 100%

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Watchers- Thank you again for this illumination, I have another area to explore.
I, as well, am blessed and grow greatly from the Divine prayer language, I notice over and over when this is mentioned the discussion is twisted and goes to the public expression, which I seldom ever see or am exposed to. But then, I only go where He wants me to go, and I only do what He wants me to do. Those who speak of being in services and hearing and seeing what to them is not of God may have violated this first principle of obedience.
bless you

Amen!
I agree with you 100%

 

[JTB]

This again? Talk about beating your dead horse!

It's very simple:

For those who believe the gifts have ceased,

They have indeed ceased.

 

[shittim]

of course they have NOT. He is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
He doesn't change, if you are not walking with Him in His power, He isn't the one who left the relationship.

 

[presidente]

I don't agree with Caleb on everything, but I agree with a lot of his views. This video is one of the most well-thought-out I've ever seen on this subject. It's concise and to the point. The truth doesn't need a lot of embellishment; it speaks for itself.

There is a pretty lousy argument here. Basically, he assumes what speaking in tongues is and keeps repeating his assumption.

No evidence of evangelistic speaking in tongues in scripture
Actually read Acts 2. Those who heard speaking in tongues said it was 'the wonderous works of God.' They didn't say anything about preaching the cross or the resurrection. If the disciples had 'preached the Gospel' and explained salvation, why didn't they just dunk all the people right after speaking in tongues. But, no, Peter stood up and preached.

So there is no evidence in the Bible of preaching the Gospel in tongues in the Bible, but our video commentator hear makes a whole argument based on that assumption, repeating the idea over and over again. He even interprets I Corinthians 14:18 to be about Paul saying he preached the Gospel in tongues, when Paul says no such thing. Paul had just spoken about praying in tongues.

Tongues as Prayers of Thanksgiving
I Corinthians 14:16-17 shows us that the content of speaking in tongues can be saying a prayer of thanksgiving. The Spirit can say whatever the Spirit wants to, but the only two examples we have of specifically what was or might be spoken in tongues in scripture are 'wonderous works of God' and giving thanks in tongues.

While I would not say that speaking in tongues cannot be other utterances, there is no example or teaching the speaking in tongues is evangelistic proclamation of the Gospel. To make a doctrine out of such an assumption is ridiculous.

Why Romans 11?
I agree with him that there is no reason to associate the groaning of Romans 11 with speaking in tongues, but he doesn't explain the leap to that line of reasoning, that there are some who teach this. Without that context, bringing this up makes little sense These groanings cannot be uttered. But tongues are spoken as the Spirit gives them utterance.

Tongues of Angels and the Dichotomy

He presents a silly false dichotomy, the idea that tongues are either a human language or a heavenly language. The Pentecostal movement allows for both, but has emphasized human languages more historically. One reason is because of the numerous experiences in the early Pentecostal movement and since of people hearing languages they knew 'in tongues.' Seymour collected testimonies of it in 'The Apostolic Faith' newsletter. There were other people who wrote accounts of it during the Azusa Street Revival. I think I have encountered a few Charismatics who thinks tongues are an angelic or heavenly language. I'd imagine that's a minority that some WOFers or other Charismatics might hold to, but probably not a majority view, or at least not a historical view. In the 1960's, there is evidence that Charismatics believed in speaking in tongues as 'real languages.' You can look at the Book 'The New Charismatics II' for support for this.

Now, Biblically, Pentecostals will allow for the idea that tongues may be tongues of angels based on I Corinthians 13. I notice he doesn't go on to show that some of the things Paul suggests he might do are give all to the poor and give his body to be poor. These are possible to do. Moving mountains is possible also according to Jesus. Even knowing all mysteries and all knowledge should probably be viewed as the _maximum_ possible. So arguing that tongues of angels is impossible isn't a compelling argument. And also the idea of people speaking in tongues of angels shows up in the Testament of Job, so the idea was floating around back then.

As far as application goes, it doesn't matter if tongues are angelic or not. The speaker in tongues does not or may not understand his own tongue. We see this in I Corinthians 14:19, where Paul would rather pray with his mind than in tongues in church. The implication is that if he speaks in tongues, he is not speaking with his mind, but rather with his spirit. If you speak a language you know, you speak with your mind. In this passage, Paul describes speaking in tongues as something. One can understand speaking in tongues with a spiritual gift, the interpretation of tongues.

 

[presidente]

Also Paul uses 'speak' with tongues to refer to speaking to God in I Corinthians 14. So praying in tongues is also speaking with tongues.

 

[Polar]

This again? Talk about beating your dead horse!

It's very simple:

For those who believe the gifts have ceased,

They have indeed ceased.

Right

53When Jesus had finished these parables, He withdrew from that place. 54Coming to His hometown, He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. 55“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph,g Simon, and Judas? 56Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57And they took offense at Him.

But Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown and in his own household is a prophet without honor.” 58And He did not do many miracles there, because of their unbelief. Matthew 13

 

[presidente]

clearly the person who made the video is ((unaware)) there are over 22 Church Father Accounts, hand written by their own self, explaining [[the PERFECT to come]] is when we see God as Who He is in Heaven.

Do you have a source that compiles these, or the individual sources? That sounds interesting.

There is some conjecture that the idea of 'that which is perfect' occurring before the return of Christ was first a Montanist interpretation. Maybe they thought Montanus or his message were that which is perfect. But Eusebius Ecclesiastical history records that a Miltiades challenged the Montanists, fourteen years after the death of the last of Montanus' two assistants to produce a prophet, and that the apostle taught that prophecy would continue until the Lord returned.

 

[shittim]

This again? Talk about beating your dead horse!

It's very simple:

For those who believe the gifts have ceased,

They have indeed ceased.

looks like your horse is the one that is dead, those who walk in His gifts have horses very much alive.

 

[Bluesproverb]

I hear a lot of blather but not a single refutation of any of the points Caleb made in his video.

I agree with him,that the meaning of tongues and God blessing people with that gift refers to human languages.

It just makes sense. When the Apostles were to bring the Gospel to all the world, they'd have to do so in the native tongues of the worlds people.
The Acts 2 scripture he cites speaks of that gift of Holy Spirit.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 2&version=CJB,MOUNCE

The jibbering so many TV pastors utter is not a human language. And some repeat the same jibberish every show.
It isn't angelic language. Angels don't need to know the Gospel.

I think we also have to remember what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14 that addresses speaking and interpreting tongues throughout.

13 Therefore someone who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.

28 And if there is no one present who can interpret, let the people who speak in tongues keep silent when the congregation meets — they can speak to themselves and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, while the others weigh what is said.

 

[shittim]

There we go again when the Divine prayer language is what we are guided to participate in without ceasing.
Why do so many heap themselves to TV preachers? Do they have "itching ears"? Jesus does not guide people to do so. Doing so is obviously NOT obedience to Him.

 

[Polar]

looks like your horse is the one that is dead, those who walk in His gifts have horses very much alive.

??????????

You misunderstand this poster. Maybe read a little slower.

 

[DavidTree]

Right

53When Jesus had finished these parables, He withdrew from that place. 54Coming to His hometown, He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. 55“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph,g Simon, and Judas? 56Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57And they took offense at Him.

But Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown and in his own household is a prophet without honor.” 58And He did not do many miracles there, because of their unbelief. Matthew 13

CORRECT - the TRUTH is ALIVE and LIVING = EXCEPT in the unbelieving heart and mind

 

[Amanuensis]

Point 3: The gift of tongues is not for everyone.

"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by [the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

The Holy Spirit gives the different gifts as He wills. Not everyone had the gift of tongues back then and neither is it scriptural to expect that everyone today should have the gift. Something else in this passage warrants comment. V. 10 says: ". . . to another different kinds of tongues." The gift is the ability to speak different languages, not an angelic language. If we take out the word "different" which is italicized in the KJV and NKJV, we still have "kinds of tongues." That is, a variety of languages. They weren't speaking "angelic," but different human languages which required and interpreter to interpret. If they were speaking "angelic," and the gift of tongues was the ability to hear in one's own native tongue, there would be no need for interpretation.

"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" 1 Corinthians 12:29-30

Obviously the answer is no.

Paul is talking about speaking in tongues with another interpreting in the church assembly. Not all will do that.

In each of the accounts in Acts 2, 8,9,10,11, 19 where tongues is mentioned they all spoke in tongues.

Each one. Everyone. All of them.

Therefore Paul must be talking about giving a tongue in the assembly like the 1 Corinthians understood him to be discussing, where someone with the gift of interpretation gave the meaning. This would not be done by everyone.

Paul was not saying that NOT all 120 in Acts 2 spoke in tongues because Paul knew very well that they did.

Paul is not saying that not all 12 of the Ephesus disciples spoke in tongues because Paul knew that they all did.

Paul is not saying that not all in the house of Cornelius spoke in tongues that day because Paul knew very well that they did.

Paul is simply making a point that not all will be used in the church service to speak in tongues and another interpret for the edification of the whole assembly.

This is the superior hermeneutic. Context is necessary.

 

[presidente]

I agree with him,that the meaning of tongues and God blessing people with that gift refers to human languages.

It just makes sense. When the Apostles were to bring the Gospel to all the world, they'd have to do so in the native tongues of the worlds people.

The problem is, the Bible doesn't support your theory. In Acts 2, they spoke of 'the wonderful works of God' according to those listening. But it doesn't say that the preached Jesus and Him crucified or the resurrection of Christ. After the speaking in tongues, Peter stood up and preached the Gospel. In I Corinthians 14, when one speaks in tongues, no one present understands, and the utterance needs to be interpreted for the church to be edified. There is a spiritual gift of interpretation of tongues. Speaking in tongues can be a prayer of thanksgiving in the passage.