The Faith OF Christ...

[ThewindBlows]

This is a strawman argument, because nowhere did I even imply that faith was a savior. Faith is trust in God, and it is God who saves.

Let me quote for you the apostle James: "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" According to your logic, I suppose you think James is wrong here, that he thinks faith is a savior. Is that what you think?

Sure you did , your implying its by your faith your saved, But the bibles says its a gift not of ourselves so you cant boast, And no you shouldn't presume I think James was wrong that's just rude, James was exactly right but who's works will someone that is saved have, There own works or God working through them, Then who gets thanks

Another straw man point, and it falls far short, because I well-explained the verse.

You're the one stuck on it.

Lol no you straight up rejected it, It should have silenced you but you try explain it away, It says what it says when you said it doesn't mean what it clearly says that's as far as we got

Salvation is an issue with losing faith, otherwise why all the warnings about apostasy? What is the reason for the exercise? The doctrine of eternal security does nothing for a person who "receives the gospel with joy, but falls away because of the cares of this life" (Mat. 13:20-21). Endurance of faith is a necessary element for a person to know he is eternally secure (Mk. 13:13, 1 Tim. 4:16, Col. 1:21-23).

So, if your phrase "lose faith" doesn't mean apostasy, then I need your exact definition of it before I could begin to agree with what you're saying.

non sense, Salvation is not an issue of losing faith where did you get that from, Salvation is through Jesus shedding his blood on that cross for our sins, The warning are for the ones that reject it obviously, I didn't mention eternal security I have talked about faith in Jesus and him been savior, you have to look away from Jesus to bring in any other problem

I suppose this may be a controversial question, because it depends on a viewpoint or an agenda as to how you interpret it. Nowhere in scripture does it declare that Jesus had faith, especially the same kind of faith that we are commanded to have. It becomes obvious, since Jesus was the 2nd person of the Trinity, He had love and trust for the Father. Yet He said "I do whatever I see My Father doing," so if one dares say He had faith, it was a faith so close to sight, that one might not call it faith.

Conversely, Heb. 11:1 defines faith as hoping in something not seen. We have the promise of God, and so we hope in something that is totally beyond us. Was the promise of God totally beyond Jesus? Was Jesus dependent on God in all things as we are, since we really don't know, and are relying on the scripture to tell us what we don't know? This is a far cry from Jesus' intimate relationship with the Father. The only thing Jesus ever admitted He didn't know was something related only to His humanness.

IMO failing to acknowledge the distinction between the natural and spiritual will keep concepts like faith vague and subjective. I've already mentioned this by saying that faith of the NT is a spiritual matter. People who think that faith is something natural that comes from natural reasoning will not understand the faith described in the NT.

Yea a controversial question you brought in to take faith away from Jesus and try put it on myself, Read carefully

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Not of yourself so you cant boast, which comes back to your point failing to acknowledge the distinction between the natural and spiritual will keep concepts like faith vague and subjective. I've already mentioned this by saying that faith of the NT is a spiritual matter. Faith is of course spiritual, why cant you see that Jesus can have and you can have have, why one or the other, and if you want to try say Jesus had no faith would be to simply say he wasn't really human like us, But he was and been born under the law, scripture says without faith it is impossible to please God, So Id say for salvation Jesus Faith was without Sin, To please God we can have faith towards him, because of Love but never to earn or work for salvation

You really don't know me, and it appears to me you are projecting something on my words that I clearly denied. I already agreed that faith in faith doesn't save anyone, yet here you are harping on it again. It shows me you have an agenda that doesn't have scripture as a priority. If scripture was your top priority, you would be using it to explain your position, rather than repeating the same opinions without scriptural support.

The bottom line is, if a person loses his belief in Christ, such a person has nothing to stand on for any assurance that he is justified before God. Lost faith puts into question if he ever had NT faith at all. Mat. 13:21, Mat. 7:21.

No I don't know you but you come in with fake authority so I just deal with your words, My agenda if you want to call it that would be to talk about Jesus and the Cross something you don't talk about, so here we are talking about yours and my faith lol, What's your agenda then to get me to put faith in myself and do it for salvation? that's a cursed message galations 1:8, So lets make that my agenda to expose false Gospels of self and works that can never save anyone, Also our discussion started with you bringing doubt about the scripture literally, And the bottom line is you have never spoken about what really saves because your faith is in your faith we cant get past your faith to the point you suggest Jesus had none? lets get to the bottom of this

 

[TDidymas]

Sure you did , your implying its by your faith your saved, But the bibles says its a gift not of ourselves so you cant boast, And no you shouldn't presume I think James was wrong that's just rude, James was exactly right but who's works will someone that is saved have, There own works or God working through them, Then who gets thanks

No, I implied nothing of the sort. And it appears to me that what you are saying here is exactly what I was trying to convey, so then do you admit that you agree with me on the matter that faith is the gift of God to us, and that we exercise it through God's working?

Lol no you straight up rejected it, It should have silenced you but you try explain it away, It says what it says when you said it doesn't mean what it clearly says that's as far as we got

I'm not going to argue with you on this. It says "if we are faithless," not "if we lose our faith," which it appears to me you are trying to make it say. My point is that one born of God will never lose their faith, since Peter said that God keeps us in it.

non sense, Salvation is not an issue of losing faith where did you get that from, Salvation is through Jesus shedding his blood on that cross for our sins, The warning are for the ones that reject it obviously, I didn't mention eternal security I have talked about faith in Jesus and him been savior, you have to look away from Jesus to bring in any other problem

You say "the ones that reject it" - when? Only when they first hear the gospel? Then what about the seed that falls among thorns? What about Col 1:23 for example? "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister" - notice it says IF YE CONTINUE, that is, we are reconciled to God through Christ, IF WE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH. Now, this might mean that someone with real faith might lose it and be lost, but it also might mean that the only way we can know for certain that we are reconciled to God is if we don't lose faith, that is, we continue in the Christian life he is talking about. The apostate abandons the faith because his faith wasn't real. That is, it wasn't grounded in the power of Christ, but was in something or someone else. And it is verses like this (of which there are many), that shows salvation is a matter of faith. But then, whose faith are we talking about in this thread? Isn't this what the discussion is about?

Yea a controversial question you brought in to take faith away from Jesus and try put it on myself, Read carefully

I disagree with your interpretation, in which you said something to the effect of: "anything not of faith is sin" and "without faith it is impossible to please God", therefore Jesus had faith. But IMO, the faith that Jesus had in the Father was fundamentally different than the faith we have, because the faith we have is in someone we don't even know (except by scripture). But Jesus knew the Father from eternity past. Can you see the difference? If not, then can you explain why the NT never once says that Jesus had faith, nor does the OT ever say that God has faith? But you have to put pieces of scripture together to come to that conclusion. IMO "anything not of faith is sin" is talking about how a Christian lives his life, not about how Jesus lived His. And "without faith it is impossible to please God" is talking about the Christian's faith, not about Christ Himself. Jesus pleased God because He was His only begotten Son, which is quite a different relationship to God the Father than what we have. Jesus proved that by the miracles He wrought.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Not of yourself so you cant boast, which comes back to your point failing to acknowledge the distinction between the natural and spiritual will keep concepts like faith vague and subjective. I've already mentioned this by saying that faith of the NT is a spiritual matter. Faith is of course spiritual, why cant you see that Jesus can have and you can have have, why one or the other, and if you want to try say Jesus had no faith would be to simply say he wasn't really human like us, But he was and been born under the law, scripture says without faith it is impossible to please God, So Id say for salvation Jesus Faith was without Sin, To please God we can have faith towards him, because of Love but never to earn or work for salvation

I don't agree that Jesus was like us in every way. Heb 7:26 "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens." When the NT talks about us having faith, isn't it saying that we trust in Christ to deliver us from sin? Isn't this the faith the NT is talking about? Then since Christ was sinless, how could He have this same faith? That would not be logical. I say this is why the NT never says Jesus had faith, because to do that would confuse Jesus with sinful mankind.

No I don't know you but you come in with fake authority so I just deal with your words, My agenda if you want to call it that would be to talk about Jesus and the Cross something you don't talk about, so here we are talking about yours and my faith lol, What's your agenda then to get me to put faith in myself and do it for salvation? that's a cursed message galations 1:8, So lets make that my agenda to expose false Gospels of self and works that can never save anyone, Also our discussion started with you bringing doubt about the scripture literally, And the bottom line is you have never spoken about what really saves because your faith is in your faith we cant get past your faith to the point you suggest Jesus had none? lets get to the bottom of this

The bottom line is, if a person loses his belief in Christ, such a person has nothing to stand on for any assurance that he is justified before God. Lost faith puts into question if he ever had NT faith at all. Mat. 13:21, Mat. 7:21.

And I deny that my faith is in my faith, as you falsely claim. Such a statement is a straw man, because it wrongly changes the direction of the faith exercised. Faith IN CHRIST is the right direction of real "saving faith" as some people would say it. Not that faith saves, but that this kind of faith is the kind that pleases God and is the action through which a person is justified and thereby saved, according to Eph. 2:8 and elsewhere. It is God who saves, therefore our trust must be in Him (that is, in Christ), or we shall not be saved, just as John 3:36 testifies "he who believes (in Christ) has eternal life, but he who does not believe shall not see life..."

I just don't see how you can justify the claim that we're saved by faith that Jesus has, even if we have no faith. Certainly God is greater than our heart if we feel condemned, but that doesn't negate the fact that we continue to believe in Christ and hope in Him beyond our subjective feelings.