A Few of the Scriptures that Make me Post-Millennial

[Ethan1942]

These are really incriminating posts for a-mil and post-mil commentators. I assume these are all referring to the fact that these verses in Acts 1 do not fit with their views, and they try to find a way to fit their round peg fit into the hole.

Again the verses in question from Acts 1,
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
(NKJV)

And of course there is no scripture where the apostles change their opinion. Amil is just an interpretive system added later.



Your first question there is good one, but you need to put it to the first century, or perhaps a bit earlier, teachers who abandoned the historical millennial teachings of the church. If you look at the earlier commentary on it, it is along the lines of millennialism, whether or not the millennium is specifically mentioned in an author's commentary. One of the posters referenced several early commentators quotes.

Two that come to mind are Papias. I have read that the 4th century historian and bishop, contemporary with Constantine as I recall, Eusebius was amillennial in his beliefs. But he acknowledged Papias, who he said knew John, held to a millennial belief, then tried to paint him as sort of well-meaning but ignorant. Others in John's circle held to similar beliefs.

You can also read Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho, where he believed in a restoration of Jerusalem with the prophets being there, etc.

There was an early view along the lines of a restored kingdom, millennialism, etc. At some as allegorical interpretation grew in popularity, amillennialism took hold.

Augustine was known to be an amillennialist, and he probably had a lot to do with the spread of the idea since his writings were so popular in the west. He had a strange interpretation of a passage in II Corinthians, in which he interpreted literal interpretations to be 'of the letter', and came up with the bizarre idea of the 'spirit of the law' which is not in the text, and that allegorical interpretation was spiritual. So literal interpretations were deemed to be low, and allegory more spiritual. He was apparently influenced by Ambrose on those ideas, rather than originating them all by himself.

Why would you reject the interpretation of the apostles and the earliest generations of Christians. Do you know of any second century amillennial teachings?

As I'm post-mil, not a-mil, I'll just give a link to a historical look at that. Because of the similarity in some ways between a-mil and post-mil, both may claim many of the quotes listed:

https://postmillennialworldview.com/2019/05/03/preterism-in-history/

It is the writings of the apostles in the New Testament that I do rely upon for proper interpretatiopn of the OT prophecies. I do not put much weight on the very first centuries of the church, since so many errors can be found, and as well the heretics. The epistles of the New Testament is clear that errors and heresies has begun before the close of the canon. That was the need for the Ecumenical Creeds, various church confessions and catechisms. The church is adrift because of abandoning those instructive devices.

There is progress in dogma over the centuries and a good book covers that: https://gracetheology.org/blog/a-defense-of-free-grace-theology.html/

It is true you can find 'historic' pre-mil beliefs all through the history of the church, along with a-mil and post-mil. You CANNOT find the dispensationalist perversion of millennialism back through the history of the church before the 1800s. Any attempt to do so is to take the route of the cultists. Groups like the Watchtower can sift through religious history and piece together a theology based upon various heretics and come up with an eclectic heretical system. You can cherry pick out of religious history, but there is a core doctrine of the faith that is well accepted.

I can understand the reasoning between the a-mil, post-mil and historic pre-mil camps so I don't fall out of those differences. In fact, as to my solid, foundational belief on the end time, I fully accept the very simple, modest belief stated in the First London Confession of Faith, 1646 thus:

LII.

There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust, and everyone shall give an account of himself to God, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Acts 24:15; 1 Cor. 5:10; Rom. 14:12. [Matt. 25; Rev. 22:11,12,13,14,15.]


That I am unwavering and solid on, but as to the various theories in prophecy, I am most moved by the Scriptures supporting the post-millennial view, which is gospel powered, not humanism based. I find dispensationalism to be a dangerous heresy not found until the 1800s.

 

[Beckie]

Where does the Bible teach that heaven is the eternal home of God's people? In Revelation, the New Jerusalem descends. What about the new earth?

New in what way? Bran new like a second creation? New as in a new way to live? New like a new car that is new to you yet used? New in what way to your understanding?

We are told here where we are. Notice the tense. It is not speaking past or future.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Just imagine what the world could be like if we took this verse literally .

A couple verses here tell us

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

New ^ here does not seems to mean what we might normally call new more like transformed our spirit is new yet we are still in this old body. Again what does the word new mean to your understanding?

 

[Beckie]

Is Dispensationalism the increase of knowledge in the traditional translation of Daniel 12:4, at the time of the end?

No it is a distortion of Scripture .

 

[Ethan1942]

On being truly "literal", reading from the KJV "Translators to the Readers", found in the early KJV Bibles:

"Lastly, wee have on the one side avoided the scrupulositie of the Puritanes, who leave the olde Ecclesticall words, and betake them to other, as when they put washing for Baptisme, and Congregation in stead of Church"

If dispensationalists want to truly be literal, they'd use a literal translation where you'll not find the word "church" anywhere from Genesis to Revelation. The KJV translators chose to use the ecclesiastical word "church" instead they're being literal to the Hebrew and Greek language. You can check in the LITV by Jay P Green, the YLT, LSV and Rotherham's Emphasized Bible and you'll not find the word "church" anywhere. When you stay with literal as in the YLT, you have God's people under the Old Covenant and under the New Covenant described in similar phrases:

Translating by using "assembly", in both OT and NT we find the following passages with the YLT.

Judg 20:2 " the assembly of the people of God,"
1 Chron. 13:2 "David saith to all the assembly of Israel" "the assembly of Israel" is the same as "the assembly of God", over which David is king. Jesus is king over the true Israel of God, the "assembly of God, God's people under the New Covenant.
1 Chron. 28:8 "the assembly of Jehovah"
Neh. 13:1 "the assembly of God"

Acts 20:28 " the assembly of God; 1 Cor. 1:2; 10:32; 11:22; Gal. 1:13, etc.
1 Cor. 1:2 " the assembly of God that is in Corinth" repeated to the each congregation in various cities
1 Tim. 3:15 "the house of God, which is an assembly of the living God"
Rev. 2:18 " the assembly of Thyatira"
Rev. 3:1 " the assembly in Sardis"
Rev. 3:14 "the assembly of the Laodiceans"

God's people are called an "assembly" under the Old Covenant as well as the New Covenant.
The assembly of God, God's people, under the Old Covenant was the single physical nation Israel, yet not all are true Israel Rom. 9:6.
The assembly of God, God's people, under the New Covenant is "out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation", but not all are true Israel.

David as a type of Jesus Christ was king over "the assembly of God", God's people under the Old Covenant was the nation Israel alone. Now Jesus Christ is king over the "assembly of God", God's people from all nations, under the New Covenant, not just the nation of Israel, but the Israel from all nations, being the people of God, the assembly of God.

"for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation; and as many as walk by this rule—peace on them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, LSV)

The word translated "and" in the phrase "and on the Israel of God" is the Greek kai. According the Strong's Greek Dictionary, kai is defined as:

"Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet."

In Gal. 6:16 kai/and is used to indicate that the people of God described in v15 are the "Israel of God". The word kai is used in this manner in the following: 1 Cor. 3:5; 8:12; 15:38; John 1:16.

When king David addesses "all the assembly of Israel", he is addressing "the assembly of God", God's people over which he is king.

When king Jesus addresses "the assembly of God" in the New Covenant, he is addressing God's people over which He is the king. The assembly of God under the New Covenant includes all every nation and is referred to as "the Israel of God", as in the following:

"All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:16, REB)

David was on the throne of David over God's people Israel, and according to Peter in Acts 2, Jesus is seen as on the throne over God's people who are Israel from all nations.

I'm writing to expand on this earlier post/reply about the word "church". It may be good to expand the post I'm relying to in order to catch the connection.

1828 Webster's entry of "church" gives 9 uses or definitions for "church" one of which is:
"6. The worshipers of Jehovah or the true God, before the advent of Christ; as the Jewish church."

Recently found out I could do a word search with a computer Bible, through various commentaries and the results I found are as I've given below.

The word church occurs in the following whole Bible commentaries as follows:
Barnes ............. total of 8196 about 1/2 found in the OT
Clarke ............ total of 1325 about 1/3 found in the OT
Gill ................. total of 3660 about 1/2 found in the OT
JFB ................ total of 1065 about 1/4 found in the OT
Poole ............... total of 1846 almost 1/2 found in the OT
Trapp............... total of 2147 about 2/3 found in the OT

It appears that before dispensationalism, referring to the church in the OT was quite common and was understood by the body of Christ, the New Covenant church. I can remember when I began to question dispensationalism, I happened to have bought a book by Charles H. Spurgeon and I found he used the word "church" in OT commentary. I remember thinking, It's so quaint' how they used that word 'church' referring to the OT before we knew better, having more biblical knowledge.

 

[Ethan1942]

These are really incriminating posts for a-mil and post-mil commentators. I assume these are all referring to the fact that these verses in Acts 1 do not fit with their views, and they try to find a way to fit their round peg fit into the hole.

Again the verses in question from Acts 1,
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
(NKJV)

And of course there is no scripture where the apostles change their opinion. Amil is just an interpretive system added later.

You can go back through early church history and pick statements out of context and prove anything in the world. I've already learned you cannot trust anything dispensationalist claim. For those interested, Lous berkhof has a great section on the views on the millennium. I'm quoting just a few sections. The web site is free, take advantage of it. All below here is from that textbook.

Some information from the Systematic Theology, by Lous Berkhof
https://downloads.biblicaltraining.org/Systematic Theology by Louis Berkhof.pdf

Some Premillenarians have spoken of Amillennialism as a new view and as one
of the most recent novelties, but this is certainly not in accord with the testimony of
history. The name is new indeed, but the view to which it is applied is as old as
Christianity. It had at least as many advocates as Chiliasm among the Church Fathers of
the second and third centuries, supposed to have been the heyday of Chiliasm. It has
ever since been the view most widely accepted, is the only view that is either expressed
or implied in the great historical Confessions of the Church, and has always been the
prevalent view in Reformed circles. page 785

2. THE PREMILLENNIALISM OF THE PRESENT. In the second quarter of the nineteenth
century a new form of Premillennialism was introduced under the influence of Darby,
Kelly, Trotter, and their followers in England and America, a Premillennialism wedded
to Dispensationalism. The new views were popularized in our country especially
through the Scofield Bible, and are widely disseminated through the works of such men
as Bullinger, F. W. Grant, Blackstone, Gray, Silver, Haldeman, the two Gaebeleins,
Brookes, Riley, Rogers, and a host of others. They really present a new philosophy of the
history of redemption, in which Israel plays a leading role and the Church is but an
interlude. Their guiding principle prompts them to divide the Bible into two books, the
book of the Kingdom and the book of the Church. In reading their descriptions of God’s
dealings with men one is lost in a bewildering maze of covenants and dispensations,
without an Ariadne thread to give safe guidance. Their divisive tendency also reveals
itself in their eschatological program. There will be two second comings, two or three (if
not four) resurrections, and also three judgments. Moreover, there will also be two
peoples of God, which according to some will be eternally separate, Israel dwelling on
earth, and the Church in heaven.
The following will give some idea of the Premillennial scheme that enjoys the
greatest popularity to-day: page 787

d. There is no positive Scriptural foundation whatsoever for the Premillennial view
of a double, or even a three- or fourfold resurrection, as their theory requires, nor for
spreading the last judgment over a period of a thousand years by dividing it into three
judgments. It is, to say the least, very dubious that the words, “This is the first
resurrection” in Rev. 20:5, refer to a physical resurrection. The context does not
necessitate, nor even favor this view. What might seem to favor the theory of a double
resurrection, is the fact that the apostles often speak of the resurrection of believers only,
and do not refer to that of the wicked at all. But this is due to the fact that they are
writing to the churches of Jesus Christ, to the connections in which they bring up the
subject of the resurrection, and to the fact that they desire to stress the soteriological
aspect of it, I Cor. 15; I Thess. 4:13-18. Other passages clearly speak of the resurrection of
the righteous and that of the wicked in a single breath, Dan. 12:2; John 5:28,29; Acts
24:15. We shall consider this matter further in the following chapter.
e. The Premillennial theory entangles itself in all kinds of insuperable difficulties
with its doctrine of the millennium. It is impossible to understand how a part of the old
earth and of sinful humanity can exist alongside of a part of the new earth and of a
humanity that is glorified. How can perfect saints in glorified bodies have communion
with sinners in the flesh. How can glorified saints live in this sin-laden atmosphere and
amid scenes of death and decay? How can the Lord of glory, the glorified Christ,
establish His throne on earth as long as it has not yet been renewed. page 792

 

[presidente]

You can go back through early church history and pick statements out of context and prove anything in the world. I've already learned you cannot trust anything dispensationalist claim. For those interested, Lous berkhof has a great section on the views on the millennium. I'm quoting just a few sections.

Who is taking quotes out of context? He acknowledges that premillennialism is ancient. What is the earliest evidence for amillennial. It is old, but is there any reason to think it is as old as premillennial? Why were those around St. John premil?

A lot of your posts seem like straw man arguments to me, since you are arguing against dispensationalism and Darby, etc., while that is not what I am addressing.

 

[presidente]

You can go back through early church history and pick statements out of context and prove anything in the world. I've already learned you cannot trust anything dispensationalist claim. For those interested, Lous berkhof has a great section on the views on the millennium. I'm quoting just a few sections. The web site is free, take advantage of it. All below here is from that textbook.

Some information from the Systematic Theology, by Lous Berkhof
https://downloads.biblicaltraining.org/Systematic Theology by Louis Berkhof.pdf

Some Premillenarians have spoken of Amillennialism as a new view and as one
of the most recent novelties, but this is certainly not in accord with the testimony of
history.

The author you quote acknowledges that premil is ancient. Justin Martyr said he and many Christians believed that Jerusalem would be rebuilt, that his people and the prophets would be there (agreeing with words he attributed to Trypho.) But he doesn't say they were amil. Do you know of any evidence for early second century amil followers? There is clearly evidence for early adherents of premil. The apostles believed Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel after Jesus opened their minds to understand the scriptures. The belief of the restoration of Israel in the church goes back clearly to the apostles.

 

[Ethan1942]

The author you quote acknowledges that premil is ancient. Justin Martyr said he and many Christians believed that Jerusalem would be rebuilt, that his people and the prophets would be there (agreeing with words he attributed to Trypho.) But he doesn't say they were amil. Do you know of any evidence for early second century amil followers? There is clearly evidence for early adherents of premil. The apostles believed Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel after Jesus opened their minds to understand the scriptures. The belief of the restoration of Israel in the church goes back clearly to the apostles.

A dispensationalist has no right whatsoever to compare his distortion of historic pre-millennialist belief to that found in history prior to the 1800s! Dispensationalism arrived in the 19th century, NOT previously. Too many weird, man-made teachings have been added to historic pre-mil beliefs to claim historic legitimacy. Only heretics in the centuries past thought of the Jews back in Jerusalem as Old Covenant people. Historically, pre-mils did believe the 1000 years involved converted Jews, within the body of Christ. I do not know why you keep wanting me to defend the a-mil in history. I am post-mil. I've given the link showing the post-mil system in history and I'll give it again: https://postmillennialworldview.com/2019/05/03/preterism-in-history/

 

[Ethan1942]

Does the gospel of Jesus Christ have power to change the world? I'll quote a passage from The Heritage Foundation -
https://www.heritage.org/civil-society/report/tocqueville-christianity-and-american-democracy

"Modern democratic freedom, Tocqueville argues, developed as a result of Christianity’s influence on European civilization, and more particularly as a result of Puritanism’s influence on American civilization. This link is not accidental: Political freedom requires an unshakeable moral foundation that only religion can supply. Moreover, religion is necessary not only to democracy’s emergence, but also to its preservation. Democracy fosters intellectual and moral habits that can be deadly to freedom: the tyranny of the majority, individualism, materialism, and democratic despotism. American Christianity acts as a corrective to these perilous democratic tendencies.

Accordingly, Tocqueville concludes, the preservation of America’s traditional religion is one of the most important tasks of democratic statesmanship. Indeed, he goes so far as to say that religion “should be considered the first” of America’s “political institutions” and even that it is necessary for Americans to “maintain Christianity…at all cost.”

Most of the push for Christianity in the public square today is from fundamentalists and evangelicals and they base the greatness and exceptionalism of the USA on the faith of Jesus Christ, and rightly so. I am so surprised then, that they are so overwhelmingly opposed to the eschatological position of post-millennialists, and embrace the modern heresy of dispensationalism.

I cannot read the parable of the mustard seed and the parable of leaven and not think that illustrates the post-mil position. I believe in the power of the gospel and God's kingdom crushes all the worldly kingdoms prior to the 2nd advent, after which we go into eternity.

“You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot. (Matt 5:13, NRSV)

"So Christians, by their lives and instructions, are to keep the world from entire moral corruption. By bringing down the blessing of God in answer to their prayers, and by their influence and example, they save the world from universal vice and crime." Barnes

“You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. No one after lighting a lamp puts it under the bushel basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven." (Matt 5:14-16, NRSV)

"You are not in your good actions to aim at yourselves, to be seen of men, as Mat 6:1, nor merely at doing good to others; good works are to be maintained for necessary uses, Tit 3:14, but having a primary, and principal respect to the glorifying of your Father." Poole

"For the husband now belongs to God through his Christian wife, and the wife through her Christian husband. Otherwise your children would not belong to God, whereas in fact they do." (1Cor 7:14, REB)
or
"For, in such cases, the unbelieving husband has become—and is—holy through union with a Christian woman, and the unbelieving wife is holy through union with a Christian brother. Otherwise your children would be unholy, but in reality they have a place among God's people." (1Cor 7:14, Weymouth, a Baptist)

"Not so simple is the use of the word ‘sanctify’. Here the word ‘sanctified’ means that the presence of the Christian in some way makes the other partner come within the sphere of God’s earthly, temporal blessing, and under God’s temporary protection, and wards off evil spiritual influence. This follows the pattern that whatever touches what is holy becomes holy (Exo 29:37; Lev 6:18). They are not ‘saved’, as 1Co 7:16 emphasises. But they enjoy temporary blessing as being part of a Christian enclave, just as a ‘stranger’ dwelling in Israel enjoyed certain benefits while he was there by being under the umbrella of the people of God (Deuteronomy 24:14, 17, 24; Deu 26:10-13). He enjoyed a peripheral part of the covenant." Peter Pett, also Baptist

"Wives, in the same way, accept the authority of your husbands, so that, even if some of them do not obey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives’ conduct, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives." (1Pet 3:1-2, NRSV)

For last night there stood by me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship, and he said, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before the emperor; and indeed, God has granted safety to all those who are sailing with you.’ (Acts 27:23-24, NRSV)

The giant sequoia trees can be as old as 3400 years of age, being alive at the time of the 1st Advent of Christ. Just as you study the growth rings and evidence of damage from the elements down through the centuries, they are still the largest trees on earth. The rings show the growth was not always strong, and they were attacked by insects and weather, but they kept going and became the largest trees on earth. I see the kingdom of God in the same way and find that to be the teachings of post-millennialists. My time-line is the same as the a-mils, but I believe the gospel changes the world, when we are living a truly Christian life in the gospel.

I was just as justified and saved when a dispensationalist as I am now, but I surely lived a defeated life in comparison to what should be the Christian life. Looking at the poor state of the nation now, maybe that is part of what is causing the decline in the west today.

 

[Ethan1942]

Dispensationalists depict the millennium like an Old Covenant Israel, including sacrifices, but supposedly accepting Jesus as their Messiah. They seem to think this is the kingdom that would have been set up in the 1st century if the Jews had not rejected Jesus and his kingdom and God had to insert the stop-gap measure, the church. But that is not how even historic pre-mils saw Romans 11:25ff.

John Gill, 18th century Baptist who was historic pre-mil says about the end time conversion of the Jews and the 1000 years:
"The next step to the increase and enlargement of Christ's kingdom and government in the world, will be the conversion of the Jews, which will follow upon the destruction of antichrist; for the Popish religion is the great stumbling block which lies in the way of the Jews; and therefore must be first removed. There are many prophecies that speak of their conversion; as that they shall be "born" at once; not in a civil sense, set up and established as a nation; but in a spiritual sense, born again of water and of the spirit; they shall be brought into a thorough conviction of sin, and a true sense or it, and shall mourn for it; particularly the sin of their obstinate rejection of the true Messiah, and their continued unbelief in him; when they shall be led and go forth with weeping and with supplication, and shall seek the Lord their God, and David their king, the Messiah, and receive him and submit unto him; and join themselves to Christian churches, and be subject to the ordinances of Christ: and this will be universal; all Israel shall be saved..."
http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace2/bk7-ch8.html

Speaking of the millennium, Gill writes:
"This glorious and visible kingdom of Christ, will not take place till after the resurrection of the just, and the renovation of the world"
"But as for the personal reign of Christ with his saints, that will be on the new earth, wherein will "dwell righteousness", and that only; that is, Christ, who is the Lord, the Righteousness of his people; and they who are made righteous by him, #2Pe 3:13 so the new heavens and new earth John had a vision of, are, according to that vision, the seat of the new "Jerusalem", or church of God, and of Christ, who will there tabernacle with them, #Re 21:1-3 and then the Lord will be King over all the earth; there will be no offset; there will be one Lord, and his name one, #Zec 14:9."
http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace2/bk7-ch8.html

Adam Clarke, 19th century post-mil on Rom 11:25
"...the apostle, therefore, seems to give this sense of the mystery-that the Jews will continue in a state of blindness till such time as a multitude of nations, or Gentiles, shall be converted to the Christian faith; and the Jews, hearing of this, shall be excited, by a spirit o emulation, to examine and acknowledge the validity of the proofs of Christianity, and embrace the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ."
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/acc/romans-11.html

Charles Hodge, a Post-mil, in his Commentary on Romans 11:32
"It seems also to enter into the design of the apostle to show that God had dealt alike with Gentile and Jew. They stood on the same ground. Both were dependent on sovereign mercy. Both had sunk into a state from which the grace of God alone could save them. As all were equally miserable and helpless, God determined to have mercy upon all, and to bring all, Jews as well as Gentiles, into the fold of Christ."
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/hdg/romans-11.html

Hodge has an interesting comment on how to read prophecy and it is not like reading the future, as if it was the newspaper today:

Charles Hodge, a Post-mil, in his Commentary on Romans 11:25
"Prophecy is not proleptic history. It is not designed to give us the knowledge of the future which history gives us of the past. Great events are foretold; but the mode of their occurrence, their details, and their consequences, can only be learned by the event. It is in the retrospect that the foreshadowing of the future is seen to be miraculous and divine."
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/hdg/romans-11.html

For dispensationalists to think their system can be compared to historic pre-millennial thought in history makes no more sense than to draw a comparison between the American Revolution and the French Revolution. They may both be revolutions, but far different in conduct shown in history.

R. L. Dabney in his Systematic Theology wrote:
"But the attempt to form a science of polemics, different from Didactic Theology fails; because error never has true method. Confusion is its characteristic."
https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/Robert Dabney/RLD_Systematic Theology.pdf

I find nothing but error and confusion in the convoluted dispensational system, and only God the Holy Spirit can open the eyes to it through the plain, didactic words of Scripture, not what can be 'read into' Scripture.

 

[Ethan1942]

If the Jews had not rejected the Messiah's kingdom and had not crucified the Lord of glory, there would be no death of the Savior. Supposedly the literalist's kingdom prophesied in the OT would then have been set up. So who would have paid for sins and redeemed men? Ezekiel 40-48 in literal language then would show animal sacrifice paid for sins? How is that handled in the dispensational scheme?

 

[presidente]

A dispensationalist has no right whatsoever to compare his distortion of historic pre-millennialist belief to that found in history prior to the 1800s! Dispensationalism arrived in the 19th century, NOT previously. Too many weird, man-made teachings have been added to historic pre-mil beliefs to claim historic legitimacy.

This reads like a straw man. Can you show me one post where I have defended 19th century dispensationalism to you?

Only heretics in the centuries past thought of the Jews back in Jerusalem as Old Covenant people.

What do you mean by that? Unbelieving Jews are under the old covenant and they are under the curse they get for not following the law, like Paul teaches in Galatians. If Galatian Gentiles could be circumcised and put under this curse, why would it not be valid today?

Romans 11 talks about salvation for Israel, which is now partly blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, and many postmils (and amils) have believed in future salvation for the Jewish people.

Historically, pre-mils did believe the 1000 years involved converted Jews, within the body of Christ. I do not know why you keep wanting me to defend the a-mil in history. I am post-mil. I've given the link showing the post-mil system in history and I'll give it again: https://postmillennialworldview.com/2019/05/03/preterism-in-history/

From my perspective amil and post mil are quite similar. But if you want to talk about historical views (and keep talking about how dispensationalism is not historical even though my point is that premil is the old historical view).... how many centuries did it take for pre-mil to emerge? Within a few centuries there were amils, but what about post-mils.

Then you send me a link about how old preterism is. That doesn't prove postmil is old.

 

[Ethan1942]

This reads like a straw man. Can you show me one post where I have defended 19th century dispensationalism to you?

You seem to defend dispensational doctrine at times, and then switch to historic premillennial beliefs. What is your understanding of prophecy? John Gill to me represents historic premillennialism, and here are his comments on key passages. Do you agree with Gill and if not where do you disagree with his pre-mil views? Your arguments appear to defend dispensationalism.

From the 18th century pre-mil, John Gill commenting Josh 21:45

There failed not ought of any good thing,.... Not only every good thing in general, but every part and particular of that good thing; that, with all that was included in it, or were appendages to it, or circumstances of it:

which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel; as of their deliverance out of Egypt, and passage through the Red sea and wilderness, with all conveniences for them therein; so of their passage through Jordan, success of their arms, the conquest of their enemies, possession of their land, a land flowing with milk and honey:

all came to pass; exactly, precisely, and punctually, even everything relative to their temporal and spiritual good: so all that God promises to his spiritual Israel, with respect to their present comfort or everlasting happiness, all is exactly fulfilled, all his promises in Christ are yea and amen.

John Gill commenting on Ezekiel chapters 40-48 -

"This and the eight following chapters contain a vision of a city and temple herein described, and are thought to be the most difficult part of the whole Bible. The Jews forbid the reading of it till a man is arrived to thirty years of age; and then he must expect to meet with things in it he does not understand, and which must be left until Elijah comes to explain them. Many Christian commentators have omitted the exposition of these chapters; and all acknowledge the difficulties in them. Something however may be got out of them, relating to the Gospel, and Gospel church state, which I am fully persuaded is intended by the city and temple;"

John Gill on Daniel's 70 weeks Dan. 9:24-

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city,..... Or, "concerning thy people, and concerning thy holy city"; that is, such a space of time is fixed upon; "cut out", as the word signifies; or appointed of God for the accomplishment of certain events, relative to the temporal good of the city and people of the Jews; as the rebuilding of their city and temple; the continuance of them as a people, and of their city; the coming of the Messiah to them, to obtain spiritual blessings for them, and for all the people of God; who also were Daniel's people and city in a spiritual sense, to which he belonged; and likewise what was relative to the utter ruin and destruction of the Jews as a people, and of their city: and this space of "seventy" weeks is not to be understood of weeks of days; which is too short a time for the fulfilment of so many events as are mentioned; nor were they fulfilled within such a space of time; but of weeks of years, and make up four hundred and ninety years; within which time, beginning from a date after mentioned, all the things prophesied of were accomplished; and this way of reckoning of years by days is not unusual in the sacred writings;" see Ge 29:27.

John Gill on Matthew 24:34 -

"Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass,.... Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live

till all these things were fulfilled; see Mt 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state."

John Gill on 2 Thess. 2:3 about "the man of sin" -

"...nor is this to be understood of a certain Jew, that is to be begotten by the devil on a virgin of the tribe of Dan, and who is to reign three years and a half, and then to be destroyed by Christ, which is a fable of the Papists; but a succession of men is here meant, as a king is used sometimes for an order and succession of kings,"
(John Gill like many following the Protestant Reformation, identifies this as "the whole hierarchy of Rome")

John Gill on Rev. 7:14, about "the great tribulation" -

"...and he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation: seeing this company designs all the elect of God, that ever were, are, or shall be in the world; "the great tribulation", out of which they came, is not to be restrained to any particular time of trouble, but includes all that has been, is, or shall be; as all the afflictions of the saints under the Old Testament; from righteous Abel to Zechariah; and all the troubles of the people of God in the times of the Maccabees, Heb 11:35; all the persecutions of the Christians by the Jews, at the first publication of the Gospel; and the persecutions under the Roman emperors, both Pagan and Arian;..."

 

[Thewatchman]

The following comes from Biblehub.comEzekiel 13:19
You have profaned Me among My people for handfuls of barley and scraps of bread. By lying to My people who would listen, you have killed those who should not have died and spared those who should not have lived.

Ezekiel 13:21
I will also tear off your veils and deliver My people from your hands, so that they will no longer be prey in your hands. Then you will know that I am the LORD.




Treasury of Scripture

Why thus said the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, with which you there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that you hunt to make them fly.

I am

Ezekiel 13:8,9,15,16
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD…

to make them fly.

2 Timothy 3:8,9
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith…

2 Timothy 3:8-10 Evil in the Last Days
…8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth. They are depraved in mind and disqualified from the faith. 9But they will not advance much further. For just like Jannes and Jambres, their folly will be plain to everyone. 10You, however, have observed my teaching, my conduct, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my perseverance,…



Matthew 24:1-4 1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Why am I starting with Matthew 24:1-4? You need to know who is talking and teaching, who He is talking to and what the subject is. We have all that in these verses. Jesus is with His disciples they are on the Mt. Of Olives and He will be teaching them about what will happen at the end of this earth age.

Verses 5-8: False Christs

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

What is the first thing He tells them. Many false teachers, preachers, pastors . . . will come saying I have the truth about Jesus, then another saying no I have the truth, NO NO my church has the real truth. The truth is 99% of them don't have any idea about the truth. We will have wars and rumors of wars famines, earthquakes ect. All of these are the beginning of sorrows. Sorrows= birth pains, What is being birthed? A new age the Heaven Age. The eternity.

Witnessing to All Nations

(Mark 13:10-13; Luke 21:10-19)

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We are living in these days. We are in that last generation; the generation of the fig tree.

 

[Ethan1942]

From James Petigru Boyce (1827–1888) served as a Southern Baptist pastor, theologian, author, seminary professor, and founder and first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/b.../www.reformedreader.org/rbb/boyce/aos/toc.htm

(1.) The rewards of the righteous are especially associated with Christ's coming in the great day. Matt. 16:27; Luke 12:37; 1 Cor. 1:7, 8; 1 Thess. 3:13; 2 Thess. 1:7, 10; 1 Pet. 5:4; 1 John 2:28; 4:17.

(2.) The suffering and punishment of the wicked are also intimately connected with the day of Christ's coming to judgement. John 12:48; 2 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:7.

(3.) There are passages also in which both the reward of the righteous, and the punishment of the wicked are set forth unitedly in connection with the second coming of Christ. Matt. 16:24-27; 24:36-51; Mark 13:24-27; Rom. 2:1-16; 1 Cor. 4:5; 2 Pet. 2:9; 2 Pet. 3:7-9.

(4.) The righteous and the wicked are judged together. Ecc. 3:17; Dan. 12:2; Matt. 16:27; Acts 17:31; Rom. 2:1-16; 2 Cor. 5:10; Heb. 9:27.

(5.) The resurrection of the dead occurs at the same time with the judgement. Dan. 12:2; Rev. 20:12, 13.

(6.) The resurrection and the change that occurs in it are also associated with the coming of Christ. 1 Cor. 15:52; Phil. 3:21; 1 Thess. 4:16.

(7.) The judgement and the coming of Christ, take place in immediate conjunction. Matt 16:27; 25:31-46; 2 Pet. 3:7-10.

(8.) The resurrection of both just, and unjust, shall occur at the same time. Dan. 12:2; John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15.

(9.) The unrighteous are kept unto the day of judgement. 2 Pet. 2:9.

(10.) At the time of Christ's coming, the world is to be destroyed, and the promise fulfilled of "new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Pet. 3:8-13. But, that day is also the day of "judgement and destruction of ungodly men;" for which "the heavens that now are and the earth by the same word have been stored up for fire," v.7.

These statements show that the general teaching of the Word of God is that the Lord will come; that at his coming there shall be a general resurrection of the just and unjust, who shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body. Not only is it not taught that there are two resurrections of the body, the one of the righteous at the second coming of the Lord, and the other of the wicked at the general judgement after an interval of one thousand years; but the judgement and the coming of the Lord are recognized as contemporaneous. The day of both events is called by various names, some of which are repeated more than once: as "the day," (1 Cor. 3:13); "that day," (Matt 7:22); "the day of judgement," (2 Pet. 2:9); "the day of God," (2 Pet. 3:12); "the day of the Lord," (1 Thess. 5:2); "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Cor. 1:8); "the day of Jesus Christ," (Phil. 1:6); "the day of Christ," (Phil. 2:16); "the day of the Lord Jesus," (1 Cor. 5:5); "the last day," (John 6:39); "the great day," (Jude 6); "the great day of their wrath," (Rev. 6:17); "the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God," (Rom. 2:5); "that great and notable day of the Lord," (Acts 2:20); "the day when God shall judge the secrets of men . . . by Jesus Christ," (Rom 2:16); "the day that the Son of Man is revealed," (Luke 17:30); "the coming of our Lord Jesus," (1 Thess. 3:13); "the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Tim. 6:14); "the revelation of Jesus Christ," (1 Pet. 1:13); the "appearing of glory of our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ," (Tit. 2:13), etc.

 

[Ethan1942]

A. A. Hodge (1823-1886), Presbyterian, Outlines of Theology: https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/aahodge/OutlinesofTheology-AAHodge.pdf

What is the Scriptural doctrine concerning the millennium?

1st. The Scriptures, both of the Old and New Testament, clearly
reveal that the gospel is to exercise an influence over all branches of the
human family, immeasurably more extensive and more thoroughly
transforming than any it has ever realized in time past. This end is to be
gradually attained through the spiritual presence of Christ in the ordinary
dispensation of Providence, and ministrations of his church.––Matthew
13:31, 32; 28:19, 20; Psalm 2:7, 8; 22:27, 29; 72:8–11; Isaiah 2:2, 3; 11:6–
9; 60:12; 66:23; Daniel 2:35, 44; Zechariah 9:10; 14:9; Revelation 11:15.

2nd. The period of this general prevalency of the gospel will
continue a thousand years, and is hence designated the millennium.––
Revelation 20:2–7.

3rd. The Jews are to be converted to Christianity either at the
commencement or during the continuance of this period. Zechariah
12:10; 13:1; Romans 11:26–29; 2 Corinthians 3:15, 16.

4th. At the end of these thousand years, and before the coming
of Christ, there will be a comparatively short season of apostasy and
violent conflict between the kingdoms of light and darkness.––Luke
17:26–30; 2 Peter 3:3, 4; Revelation 20:7–9.

5th. Christ’s advent, the general resurrection and judgment,
will be simultaneous, and immediately succeeded by the burning of the
old, and the revelation of the new earth and heavens. "Confession of
Faith," Chaps. 32. and 33.

 

[Ethan1942]

R. L. Dabney (1820-1898), American Christian theologian, Southern Presbyterian pastor
https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/Robert Dabney/RLD_Systematic Theology.pdf

Millennium and Second Advent

The wisdom and modesty of the Westminster Assembly are displayed in the caution with which they speak on these difficult subjects. Their full discussion would lead into a thorough investigation of that vast and intricate subject, unfulfilled prophecy. Nothing more can be attempted here, than a brief statement of competing schemes. They each embrace, and attempt to adjust, the following points: The millennium, or thousand years’ reign of Christ on earth: Christ’s second advent: The destruction of the Kingdom of Satan among men: The resurrection of the righteous and the wicked: and the general judgment and final consummation. That doctrine which we hold, and which we assert to be the Apostolic and Church doctrine, teaches, just as much as the pre–Adventists, the literal and personal second advent of Christ, and we hold, with the Apostolic Christians, that it is, next to heaven, the dearest and most glorious of the believer’s hopes: as bringing the epoch of his full deliverance from death, and full introduction into the society of his adored Saviour. This hope of a literal second advent we base on such Scriptures as these: Acts 1:11: 3:20, 21; Heb. 9:28; 1 Thess. 4:15, 16; Phil. 3:20; Matt. 26:64, etc., etc. Before this second advent, the following events must have occurred. The development and secular overthrow of Antichrist, (2 Thess. 2:3 to 9; Dan. 7:24–26; Rev. 17:, 18 which is the Papacy. The proclamation of the Gospel to all nations, and the general triumph of Christianity over all false religions, in all nations. (Ps. 72:8–11; Is. 2:2–4; Dan. 2:44, 45; 7:14; Matt. 28:19, 20; Rom. 11:12, 15, 25; Mark 13:10; Matt. 24:14). The general and national return of the Jews to the Christian Church. (Rom. 11:25, 26). And then a partial relapse from this state of high prosperity, into unbelief and sin. (Rev. 20:7, 8). During this partial decline, at a time unexpected to formal Christians and the profane, and not to be expressly foreknown by any true saint on earth, the second Advent of Christ will take place, in the manner described in 1 Thess. It will be immediately followed by the resurrection of all the dead, the redeemed dead taking the precedence. Then the generation of men living at the time will be changed (without dying) into their immortal bodies, the world will undergo its great change by fire, the general judgment will be held; and last, the saved and the lost will severally depart to their final abodes, the former to be forever with the Lord, the latter with Satan and his angels.

 

[Beckie]

The giant sequoia trees can be as old as 3400 years of age, being alive at the time of the 1st Advent of Christ. Just as you study the growth rings and evidence of damage from the elements down through the centuries, they are still the largest trees on earth. The rings show the growth was not always strong, and they were attacked by insects and weather, but they kept going and became the largest trees on earth. I see the kingdom of God in the same way and find that to be the teachings of post-millennialists. My time-line is the same as the a-mils, but I believe the gospel changes the world, when we are living a truly Christian life in the gospel.

This is the best analogy of His Kingdom i have ever read.! It is so true and in keeping with the parable of the Leaven He speaks of .
Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Luk 13:20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
Luk 13:21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

I believe we will have Anti-Christ first, and perhaps quite soon; then the Period of Peace described as "1000 years" will begin. Whether it is a literal 1000 years or not I don't know. What I want to point out is that the Beast and False Prophet are already in the lake of fire when later Satan is thrown there after the final battle. What does that mean? That Anti-Christ comes before the Millenial Period, not after it, as some believe. God Bless. The passage below:

"The Thousand Years
20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.



The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Also, the idea that Satan is currently unable to deceive the nations and locked up makes no sense at all and explicitly contradicts other Scriptures, which says he is like a roaring lion prowling to devour us. That shows the "1000 years" where Christ and His Saints will reign is still in the Future, a future Period of Peace which is also described in Isaiah 65.

Thus 1 Pet 5:8: "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. "

Isa 65: "
20No longer will a nursing infant live but a few days,

or an old man fail to live out his years.

For the youth will die at a hundred years,

and he who fails to reach a hundred

will be considered accursed.

21They will build houses and dwell in them;

they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

22No longer will they build houses for others to inhabit,

nor plant for others to eat.

For as is the lifetime of a tree,

so will be the days of My people,

and My chosen ones will fully enjoy

the work of their hands.

23They will not labor in vain

or bear children doomed to disaster;

for they will be a people blessed by the LORD—

they and their descendants with them.

24Even before they call, I will answer,

and while they are still speaking, I will hear.

25The wolf and the lamb will feed together,

and the lion will eat straw like the ox,

but the food of the serpentg will be dust.

They will neither harm nor destroy

on all My holy mountain,”