Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

Thewatchman · Aug 17, 2022

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Like so ^

thanks

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Rather, the Bible has shown that we HAVE that enablement to make that choice. That is where calvinists depart from Scripture.

Rom 2-
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

It is our God given conscience that enables people to understand so people can choose whether to believe or not.

btw, there is something strange in your post. When I typed "given conscience", it was underlined. So I hit the return several times and returned to my sentence and everything was all right.

Here is what it looked like:
given co

Rather, when the Bible describes a New Heart, it is describing our regeneration, which is through faith, per Eph 2:8.

2ndTimothyGroup · Aug 18, 2022

Day 226 of the timeline, chronological reading plan shows us another interesting statement made in the book of Jeremiah. Written in Jeremiah’s letter to those carried away in captivity is the following:

Jeremiah 29:4, 7, 10, 20 NKJV - 4 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all who were carried away captive, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem to Babylon:” ... 7 “And seek the peace of the city where I have caused you to be carried away captive, and pray to the LORD for it; for in its peace you will have peace.” ... 10 “For thus says the LORD: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place.” ... 20 “Therefore hear the word of the LORD, all you of the captivity, whom I have sent from Jerusalem to Babylon.”

Above, we find that the Lord is taking full responsibility for the Israelites being taken as captives to Babylon. We also find that God will be taking full responsibility for bringing Israel [back] to “this place.” How does the Lord cause these things to happen? What are the options for [how] the Lord causes human-related events to take place?

God has the Power to make such events take place.

Sure. God possesses the Power to make events occur, but what does God do to cause human events to take place?

God would have to control the thoughts and actions of a person, or groups of people, to ensure that specific human events would come to pass.

Perhaps I am wrong, but are there any other options? For God to cause Israel to be captured by Babylon and taken away, there seems to be no other option but to conclude that the thoughts and actions of the Babylonians were pre-determined by the Lord. Without these imputed thoughts and desires to capture Israel, the Babylonian captivity would have never occurred. How else can the Lord cause these things to happen if He were [not] controlling the thoughts and actions of the Babylonians?

What does this suggest about the collective Babylonian sense of “free will”? If it were not for the Lord controlling the thoughts and actions of the Babylonians, they wouldn’t have captured and retained Israel for 70 years.

I would like to add that the four verses above demonstrate that God is not a simple bystander of world events, but rather, He determines them. If the Lord were a simple bystander to world events, He wouldn’t be quoted as saying He alone caused them to happen. A person who causes something to happen is more than a spectator but is the primary cause of the action. Further, this confirms the notion that God has a Plan and that He is fulfilling it.

Thewatchman · Aug 18, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

We have to make that choose God is not going to force us to make it and God wants all to come to Him so He is not going to stop anyone from coming to Him. There is that small group[compared to the total number of peopple that habe been, are, and will be on earth throughout time] spoken of in Ephesians 1 that have been chosen from before the foundations of this earth age. They are going to follow Him and do what He has for them to do. Look at Paul he was struck down on the road. The other 99% of us have to go to Him and ask for that forgivness. Does He make a ay for us yes He does but we have to open the door for Him when He knocks.

Thewatchman · Aug 18, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Day 226 of the timeline, chronological reading plan shows us another interesting statement made in the book of Jeremiah. Written in Jeremiah’s letter to those carried away in captivity is the following:

Jeremiah 29:4, 7, 10, 20 NKJV - 4 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all who were carried away captive, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem to Babylon:” ... 7 “And seek the peace of the city where I have caused you to be carried away captive, and pray to the LORD for it; for in its peace you will have peace.” ... 10 “For thus says the LORD: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place.” ... 20 “Therefore hear the word of the LORD, all you of the captivity, whom I have sent from Jerusalem to Babylon.”

Above, we find that the Lord is taking full responsibility for the Israelites being taken as captives to Babylon. We also find that God will be taking full responsibility for bringing Israel [back] to “this place.” How does the Lord cause these things to happen? What are the options for [how] the Lord causes human-related events to take place?

God has the Power to make such events take place.

Sure. God possesses the Power to make events occur, but what does God do to cause human events to take place?

God would have to control the thoughts and actions of a person, or groups of people, to ensure that specific human events would come to pass.

Perhaps I am wrong, but are there any other options? For God to cause Israel to be captured by Babylon and taken away, there seems to be no other option but to conclude that the thoughts and actions of the Babylonians were pre-determined by the Lord. Without these imputed thoughts and desires to capture Israel, the Babylonian captivity would have never occurred. How else can the Lord cause these things to happen if He were [not] controlling the thoughts and actions of the Babylonians?

What does this suggest about the collective Babylonian sense of “free will”? If it were not for the Lord controlling the thoughts and actions of the Babylonians, they wouldn’t have captured and retained Israel for 70 years.

I would like to add that the four verses above demonstrate that God is not a simple bystander of world events, but rather, He determines them. If the Lord were a simple bystander to world events, He wouldn’t be quoted as saying He alone caused them to happen. A person who causes something to happen is more than a spectator but is the primary cause of the action. Further, this confirms the notion that God has a Plan and that He is fulfilling it.

Yes He did put them into captivity and He brought them back. He did not do that to give them freewill or take freewill away from them. He was trying to open their eyes yes but the reason that He has kept them is because of the King line it must stay pure Eve to Noah to David to Jesus. At the time of the Babylonian captivity the only tribes left were Judah and Benjamin. It that way today the majority of Israel is made up of people from the tribe of Judah.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 18, 2022

Thewatchman said:

AMEN!

The "us" in v.4 is the same "us" in v.19, which is "us who believe". That's who God has chosen in 1:4.

Every human being faces the same choice. Titus 2:11 says that God's grace offers salvation to everyone.

Thewatchman · Aug 18, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

We agree on that one Amen and Amen

Saul-to-Paul · Aug 18, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

As I have read through the Bible several times, I have logged the many passages that clearly show that God caused people and groups of people to think, act, and speak against their own will. And while a person may not change their view once I have offered all passages collected, a new perspective will at least be offered (and undeniable if at least in specific circumstances).

Here is the first according to a chronological, timeline reading format:

Deuteronomy 2:25 NLT - "Beginning today I will make people throughout the earth terrified because of you. When they hear reports about you, they will tremble with dread and fear.'"

If the Lord is going to place fear of the Jews into the hearts and minds of all people on the earth . . . How is that fear of their own free will and choice?

To those of you who are adamant about our sense of free will, how does this passage make you feel? Is it right or wrong that God would strip the world of this right to view the Jews as they wish?

Romans 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Freewill is a joke.

2ndTimothyGroup · Aug 18, 2022

Saul-to-Paul said:

100%.

The reason for why most "christians" lack genuine Fear of the Lord is that they do not comprehend His Power. Anyone who reads the Bible should be in awe of God's Almighty Power. But if a person has not been granted a heart that can understand these things, grasping the Power of God will always be elusive.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 19, 2022

Saul-to-Paul said:

It's no joke. Paul quoted from Ex 9 to prove that Pharaoh had the freedom to choose. And he kept choosing the wrong way.

13 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me,
14 or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth.
15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.
16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.
18 Therefore, at this time tomorrow I will send the worst hailstorm that has ever fallen on Egypt, from the day it was founded till now.

v.13 states God's command to Pharoah; let My people go. God never forced Pharoah to resist Him.
v.14 God's promise IF Pharoah didn't obey His command, and the reason; "so you may KNOW that there's no one like Me".
v.15 God tells Pharoah that "by now" He could have wiped the idiot off the earth.
v.16 God explains to Pharoah WHY He continued to let Pharoah live longer. To let everyone know that God kept Pharoah ALIVE longer in order to show the world His power.
v.17 Pharoah kept making the WRONG choice and resisted what God wanted him to do.
v.18 God's promise as a result of Pharoah's continued BAD choices.

So don't kid yourself. God created mankind with the freedom to choose.

No joke.

briankboyce · Aug 19, 2022

Runningman said:

Reads a lot like Passover.
Murdering the first born to the elderly to anyone who apposes them is their way. Murder is what they do best.
That is really all they know.
Try to guess who “they” be?

briankboyce · Aug 19, 2022

pottersclay said:

If that was true, then we would be nothing more than puppets on a string.
We are not, God's greatest gift to us is free will.
God gave us instructions on how we should live our lives. He also told us what would happen if we chose not to follow His commandments.
the greatest gift to us is free will.

Rosemaryx · Aug 19, 2022

briankboyce said:

The greatest gift to us is His Son , our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ...

2ndTimothyGroup · Aug 19, 2022

briankboyce said:

Have you ever prayed that God would change something within you that you could not change on your own . . . ie, a bad habit?

briankboyce · Aug 20, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

no

2ndTimothyGroup · Aug 21, 2022

briankboyce said:

That's amazing. Do you see evidence of the Power and Plan of God in your life, or are you in total control?

pottersclay · Aug 21, 2022

briankboyce said:

Oh my friend free will or the such as you see it the puppet .
Jesus said "i do nothing on my own only what the father tells me. Is he less than you.
He prayed "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"...Gods will.
God can use evil to correct or destroy...he uses goodness to restore and edify.
Care to reconsider your view?

2ndTimothyGroup · Aug 21, 2022

Day 227 of the timeline, chronological reading plan gives us an interesting insight into the relationship between not only Christ and His Father, but the relationship between us and the Father, our Father God. Jeremiah 30:21 reads as follows:

NLT - “They will have their own ruler again, and he will come from their own people. I will invite him to approach me,” says the LORD, “for who would dare to come unless invited?”

If you consult your favored Commentary, it will likely point out that this Scripture references Christ. It may also point out that the basic principle of “who would dare to come unless invited” also applies to the Lord’s Holy Elect, which is that none of us would approach the Lord if we had and have not been invited. So what does this say about our ability to choose?

The above Scripture seems to support the notion that we do not choose God, but God chooses us, and that if not for God, we would not “choose” Him. The conclusion? The Lord must draw us, and if this is the case, what does it say about the level of power allegedly wrapped up in our sense of “free will”?

John 6:44 NLT – “For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.”

John 15:16 NIV – “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.”

There is a purpose of being drawn by the Lord, and according to the "so that" above, it is to bear fruit . . . the kind of fruit that will last into Eternity.

So again, are we Truly “free” to choose the Lord according to the above passages? No, for it is impossible, lest we should boast.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 21, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:
Have you ever prayed that God would change something within you that you could not change on your own . . . ie, a bad habit?

briankboyce said:

It actually works.

1 John 5:14,15
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

The command to be filled with the Holy Spirit in Gal 5:16 is certainly God's will.

The blue words require being in fellowship with the Lord. 1 John 1:9 regular on-going confession of sins.

Green words requires faith in God doing what He promises.

Since a bad habit (and I assume that refers to a sin, not just some kind of annoying habit) is is NOT God's will, 1 John 5:14 tells us to pray for anything that is "according to His will. So, yes, you should pray that God will remove the sin. And then believe that He will. Of course if you pray for God's will but haven't been confessing your sins, God will NOT hear your prayers, regardless of what you pray for.

Psa 66:18 - If I had regarded in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;

That's why we need to heed 1 John 1:9. Confess your sins before you pray for God's will.

2ndTimothyGroup · Aug 22, 2022

Once again, Day 227 of the timeline, chronological reading plan keeps us in Jeremiah, chapter 31, and offers another interesting nugget of how the Lord is in control of the path of Israel . . . and His Holy Elect (both Jew and Gentile).

NKJV - “They shall come with weeping, And with supplications I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters, In a straight way in which they shall not stumble; For I am a Father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn.”

It seems pretty clear that the Plan of God is to lead His people by streams of water (Holy Spirit) and on a level path where they cannot stumble (Christ removing the Sin Nature). But this is no ordinary Plan, such as a humanistic plan. The Plan of God is different in that the things that the Lord Plans, they [will] take place. But this is not like human planning, as we discovered on Day 128:

Psalm 33:10-11 NKJV – “The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.”

And as said, the Plans of God are fulfilled without any impedance of human power, including that of “free will.” Below, Job makes this point clear, which is that He is in control and that he, Job, is not:

Job 42:2 CSB – “I know that you can do anything and no plan of yours can be thwarted.”

The Plan? “I will cause” a chosen group of people to think and act in a new and specific way that does not lead to stumbling. But wait . . . isn’t it our sense of “free will” that is the procuring cause for our Holy Walk? Isn’t our sense of “free will” responsible for walking with and in the Water of the Holy Spirit? We make this choice . . . right? Well, that isn’t what we find here in Jeremiah 31:09. Here, we find that the responsible party is God, the one who will “cause” His Elect to walk in a specific way; a way that will not stumble.”

Friends, this [is] the Blessing of Abraham! The Blessing is that Abraham was given a Pure and undefiled Heart. His old heart was Purified of the Sin Nature, meaning that no longer would any of Abraham’s future errors be attributed to the influence of Satan. This is the Holy Purpose of Spiritual Circumcision, first introduced as physical circumcision in Genesis chapter 17.

At the “Heart” of the Bible is the concept of the Circumcised Heart. Without Spiritual Circumcision, there is no Eternal Life with God in Heaven. Spiritual Circumcision is the crux of the entire Bible, for, without the doctrine of Spiritual Circumcision, the Bible would be washed down . . . as in, modern-day preaching.

But here is the point: Spiritual Circumcision is a Work from Christ, lest we should boast that we had Purified ourselves of the Sin Nature. Further still, this Work of Christ is Effectual. This Effectual Work is what [causes] us to walk in a new way, meaning that the way we now think is not the way and manner in which we used to think. Spiritual Circumcision of the mind of Satan releases a person’s mind so that it will have the option to act upon its choices successfully, instead of merely making a choice (but not acting upon it).

If anything, no one is truly “free” until Christ set’s them free, and He does this through the Spiritual Circumcision of the Sinful Nature . . . the mind of the Devil. Only until a person begins to develop the Mind of Christ can they think in alignment with the Spirit. Until Spiritual Circumcision takes place, there is no possibility of “freedom,” for that person is held captive by the Devil to do his will - 2nd Timothy 2:26. They are trapped by the motivator of sin:

2 Timothy 2:25-26 NIV – “Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”

John 8:36 KJV – “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 “When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. ... 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.”

Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

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