And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
Kinda hard to believe given all your bashing of Christianity, and "from the beginning" no less. We read all about the "beginning" in the book of the Acts of the Apostles. Which you bash.

All your LIES mean nothing. Prove that I have bashed Christianity from my posts. Cite the post # and quote my statement.

Otherwise, you have no credibility. And you have NEVER proven ANY of your wild claims against me. You are empty.


Not my problem.

Just using your severely flawed logic on you. Now that you experience it, you can feel first-hand how ridiculous it is. You just learned to not falsely accuse people of being a cultist.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Kinda hard to believe given all your bashing of Christianity, and "from the beginning" no less. We read all about the "beginning" in the book of the Acts of the Apostles. Which you bash.

95 AD or so THE ASSESSMENT OF THE CHURCHES BY CHRIST JESUS OF WHICH YOU MUST BE WHOLLY IGNORANT

Ridiculous. When John wrote Rev 2-3, that wasn't the "beginning of Christianity" at all. You are showing YOUR ignorance.

Back up to the book of Acts, where Christianity actually began.

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Revelation 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Revelation 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Go ahead and quote as many irrelevant verses as you want. You just keep failing to make your case.

If you thought the church began around 85-96 AD, that's ignorant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Liar.

Says the LIAR.

Here’s what I said:

Post #1359

Yes seems to be the case. i have good reason to believe that the widespread confusion on eternal torment on account of the present day church is for two reasons.

Firstly, the New Testament doesn’t always accurately translate the word soul. This is apparent for anyone with an open mind dives into studying how the word soul is used for an hour or two. I won’t be opening that here. People who really want to know can go look.

Secondly, traditions and doctrines of men influenced church thought from an early stage, possibly from pagan influences like Plato, that gave people the false idea that the soul is unconditionally immortal.

And you're dishonest too. I was quoting you directly. And you want to hide your comment.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Read my posts. I made my position very clear. Quit asking such stupid questions, please.

Read my posts. I made my position quite clear. I’m a Christian, not a cultist. Don’t be ridiculous. I wouldn’t step foot in a Kingdom Hall or a SDA building.

Your position doesn't line up with Scripture, as you've been shown over and ever.

 

[kleronomos]

Well, I would never bash Christianity, which is what you keep doing. You cannot prove from Scripture that those at the GWT judgment will cease to exist when the first 3 plus all the fallen angels will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



THERE IS A SPECIFIC TIME IN WHICH THEIR TORMENT CAN OCCUR
AND IT IS THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT




ONLY YOU keep saying they will be IN TORMENT for ever

when

what is written IS

the smoke of their torment is for ever, NOT THEIR TORMENT.


THEIR TORMENT CAN ONLY LAST AS LONG AS THEY ARE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS AND THE LAMB.


YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY. IT SHOULD BRING YOU GREAT PEACE KNOWING THAT THERE WILL BE NO SOULS WITHOUT HOPE SUFFERING FOREVER. WHY DOES THAT NOT SIT WELL IS THE QUESTION.

It is of WILLFULL IGNORANCE that you will not acknowledge that YOU ARE TAKING WHAT IS WRITTEN AND GIVING IT A DIFFERENT MEANING

AND WHY?

SO AS NOT TO BE WRONG??? Say it isn't so

 

[kleronomos]

Ridiculous. When John wrote Rev 2-3, that wasn't the "beginning of Christianity" at all. You are showing YOUR ignorance.

Back up to the book of Acts, where Christianity actually began.

Projecting.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
Read my posts. I made my position very clear. Quit asking such stupid questions, please.

Your position doesn't line up with Scripture, as you've been shown over and ever.

Your positions don’t line up with the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, I would never bash Christianity, which is what you keep doing. You cannot prove from Scripture that those at the GWT judgment will cease to exist when the first 3 plus all the fallen angels will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

THERE IS A SPECIFIC TIME IN WHICH THEIR TORMENT CAN OCCUR
AND IT IS THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT

ONLY YOU keep saying they will be IN TORMENT for ever when what is written IS the smoke of their torment is for ever, NOT THEIR TORMENT.

FINALLY, I SEE WHERE YOU ERR. In 14:10 we don't find the word "for ever and ever". So, it should be obvious that it is WHEN all believers will be cast into the LOF, where the Lamb and His holy angels WILL BE. They will see their torment.

The verse doesn't say the torment will cease, as you presume.

THEIR TORMENT CAN ONLY LAST AS LONG AS THEY ARE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS AND THE LAMB.

Doesn't as "last as long as...", as you keep presuming.

Just believe what is written. You keep trying to ADD to what was written.

Then, in v.11 John add that their torment will smoke for ever and ever. Says nothing about the Lamb and His angels still being there.

But you just can't control yourself and add what isn't there, the very thing you keep accusing me of.

YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY. IT SHOULD BRING YOU GREAT PEACE KNOWING THAT THERE WILL BE NO SOULS WITHOUT HOPE SUFFERING FOREVER.

By the time all unbelievers have died and go to Hades awaiting the GWT judgment, they DON'T HAVE ANY HOPE. So your question is weird. And they WILL suffer forever and ever.

WHY DOES THAT NOT SIT WELL IS THE QUESTION.

I'm totally OK with what the Bible says. I'm not sure what your question even is here.

It is of WILLFULL IGNORANCE that you will not acknowledge that YOU ARE TAKING WHAT IS WRITTEN AND GIVING IT A DIFFERENT MEANING

No, that is what you are doing.

AND WHY?

Good question. Please tell us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Ridiculous. When John wrote Rev 2-3, that wasn't the "beginning of Christianity" at all. You are showing YOUR ignorance.

Back up to the book of Acts, where Christianity actually began.

Projecting.

Your comment doesn't make sense. Projecting what, exactly? I am directing you to the book of Acts.

That's not projecting. That is guidance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your positions don’t line up with the Bible.

You're like a parrot, "parrotting" what I post.

 

[Jackson123]

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Are the souls of men that worshipped the beast either

the devil

the beast or

the false prophet themselves?



Because we are told the smoke of those who worship goes us for ever

where as we are told these will be tormented for ever



Are we rightly dividing when we ASSIGN TO a different GROUP what has been written of another?

ISN'T THAT CALLED COMING TO A CONCLUSION and doesn't that conclusion TWIST what is actually written?


ISNT THAT WHAT SATAN DID IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN WITH THE WORDS OF GOD?

satan not only exist on GT,

worship satan not only happen on GT

In my country there is an old temple, where some people pray for blessing, if they want to be rich, their make a contract with the devil

all unbeliever beast follower

beast is satan

all unbeliever follow satan

so, all unbeliever go to eternal punishment

 

[Gojira]

Twice. First, at the beginning of the Millennial reign, when he will be locked in a prison for the duration. Second and final time is at the end of the Millennium when he will join the beast and FP.


Please read Rev 20 again, and all of it this time. After satan and obviously his angels are thrown into the LOF in Rev 20:10, the text IMMEDIATELY describes what will happen to all the unbelievers; judgment at the GWT and then they will join the beast, FP, satan and all his fallen angels. There is NO REASON to ASSUME/PRESUME/GUESS that all the unbelievers will get LESS than the previous occupants of the LOF. That is just pure SPECULATION.


Yes, I see it in all your speculative posts.


This is when the resurrected and mortal physical bodies of the unbelievers will DIE AGAIN.


What a ridiculous speculation. Why in the world (or universe) would God include the LOF in the NE? There is NO REASON.


Well, there you go!! God is that One. The Bible SAYS those in the LOF will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. So, yeah, there is Someone who IS keeping death and hell around. To be cast into the LOF and then be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


The LOF, naturally.


Yep.


They are in the LOF. Your question is weird. There is NO PLACE for death and hell except the LOF. That's it.


They can't get away from His omnipresence. Naturally.

Your questions reveal a serious misunderstanding of a lot of Scripture. Most of this is basic eschatology.

Yeah, you know there comes a time when you just have to move on from a conversation. This guy's going to keep doing this and it will never end -- just like Hell

I'm not really paying attention anymore. People believe what they want to believe, even trying to fit square facts into their round desired reality.

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
Ridiculous. When John wrote Rev 2-3, that wasn't the "beginning of Christianity" at all. You are showing YOUR ignorance.

Back up to the book of Acts, where Christianity actually began.

Your comment doesn't make sense. Projecting what, exactly? I am directing you to the book of Acts.

That's not projecting. That is guidance.

So you don't think that when John the Baptist was proclaiming the Kingdom and baptizing that was the beginning?

Nor when Jesus was converting all the Jews SO MANY that it made them want to KILL HIM was the beginning?

So what do we do with those thousands of souls who all the apostles were baptizing?

What about those apostles who became the elders of the church?

I most certainly question WHY you would think that YOUR GUIDANCE is the kind of guidance I would choose to follow.

 

[Jackson123]

In Matt 25 Jesus separate all nation Only 2 group, not 3

goat, and sheep

all goat go into eternal punishment

all sheep go to eternal live

no group cease to exist

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
Ridiculous. When John wrote Rev 2-3, that wasn't the "beginning of Christianity" at all. You are showing YOUR ignorance.

Back up to the book of Acts, where Christianity actually began.

Your comment doesn't make sense. Projecting what, exactly? I am directing you to the book of Acts.

That's not projecting. That is guidance.

Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.


NOW as YOU would have it this would read A WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT WOULDN'T IT?


TORMENT AND DEATH ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. THEY ARE SEEKING DEATH TO GET AWAY FROM THE TORMENT.


ISN'T it hard for you to kick against the pricks? Paul thought he had it right to. Causing all that pain and sorrow to those Christians.


I see you are still on line, I can't wait to hear how you address this prick

 

[Jackson123]

Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.


NOW as YOU would have it this would read A WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT WOULDN'T IT?


TORMENT AND DEATH ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. THEY ARE SEEKING DEATH TO GET AWAY FROM THE TORMENT.


ISN'T it hard for you to kick against the pricks? Paul thought he had it right to. Causing all that pain and sorrow to those Christians.


I see you are still on line, I can't wait to hear how you address this prick

those people want physical death to avoid physical pain
they never experience physical death and think like you, they think death is cease to exist
they need to read Matt 25 wher Jesus, the owner of universe only separate all nation into goat and sheep
eternal punishment or eternal live

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you don't think that when John the Baptist was proclaiming the Kingdom and baptizing that was the beginning?

Of course not. John preached in the OT. He never made it to the NT.

Nor when Jesus was converting all the Jews SO MANY that it made them want to KILL HIM was the beginning?

Nope. Same reason. See above.

So what do we do with those thousands of souls who all the apostles were baptizing?

What would you like to do with them? Jesus took all of them from Hades to heaven when He was resurrected.

What about those apostles who became the elders of the church?

what about them? Your questions are really really vague. The church began AFTER the ascension, when the Holy Spirit began to indwell every believer.

It seems you aren't very familiar with church history.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Ridiculous. When John wrote Rev 2-3, that wasn't the "beginning of Christianity" at all. You are showing YOUR ignorance.

Back up to the book of Acts, where Christianity actually began.

Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Are you asleep at the switch? The discussion was about the beginning of Christianity. And you quote these 2 verses??!!

NOW as YOU would have it this would read A WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT WOULDN'T IT?

Why do YOU think I would? And how do you think I would "re-write it", as you presume?

Do you even know what 9:5,6 refer to?

TORMENT AND DEATH ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Sure. Both souls and bodies can be tormented, but only bodies can die twice.

THEY ARE SEEKING DEATH TO GET AWAY FROM THE TORMENT.

Stupid unbelievers think that they will cease to exist when they die, so OF COURSE they would seek death thinking they will escape the pain/torment. However, God keeps them from what they want to do.

ISN'T it hard for you to kick against the pricks?

I wouldn't know, since I've never done that.

Paul thought he had it right to. Causing all that pain and sorrow to those Christians.

OK. And??

I see you are still on line, I can't wait to hear how you address this prick

I don't address pricks.

 

[kleronomos]

Sure. Both souls and bodies can be tormented, but only bodies can die twice.

Born again, born from above. What is born from above?

Made a new creature? What does that mean to you?



I suppose what GOD MEANT TO SAY WAS

'don't fear man who can kill the body but can't torture the soul
BUT FEAR GOD WHO IS ABLE TO BOTH KILL THE BODY and torture the soul, but NOT KILL IT.

 

[kleronomos]

I don't address pricks.

CLEARLY