The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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The unregenerate person can call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. That is the point. Your Calvinism will never gain a foothold here, so just give yourself a break and give it up. We get the Holy Spirit indwelling after salvation, not before. It is we who decide who we shall follow.
Joshua 24:15
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Joshua 24:15
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
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Show me, with scriptures, where the unregenerate person can call upon the name of the Lord and be saved, and I will show you how you are interpreting the scriptures incorrectly.
God does, indeed, give us the liberty to make our own choices, but the unregenerate person will never make a choice to believe anything that is of a spiritual nature, because he only has the nature of the fleshly person, and not the spiritual mature of the regenerate person, until he has been born again with the new spiritual life.
I, do, agree with you that we get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as part of the new birth, and not before then.
God does, indeed, give us the liberty to make our own choices, but the unregenerate person will never make a choice to believe anything that is of a spiritual nature, because he only has the nature of the fleshly person, and not the spiritual mature of the regenerate person, until he has been born again with the new spiritual life.
I, do, agree with you that we get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as part of the new birth, and not before then.
No one says they can.
This is true and does NOT include the gospel message, which is a TRUST issue. Something that everyone can understand.
True. This is what allows the believer to begin to understand the Bible and the many doctrines needed for spiritual growth.
Does that save everyone then? He died for everyone. Explain, please.
Again, you quote verses that DO NOT SAY what you say. I've given you the many verses that plainly say that Christ died for all or everyone.
This is true and does NOT include the gospel message, which is a TRUST issue. Something that everyone can understand.
True. This is what allows the believer to begin to understand the Bible and the many doctrines needed for spiritual growth.
Does that save everyone then? He died for everyone. Explain, please.
Again, you quote verses that DO NOT SAY what you say. I've given you the many verses that plainly say that Christ died for all or everyone.
FreeGrace2 said:
I agree. We do not give birth to ourselves. John 1:12 makes that real clear.
Why do you keep trying to change the subject? Is it because you really do NOT know HOW a person is born again?
I never asked how a person is not born again.
No, read it again. It tells us WHO gives us birth, which is God.
But, it doesn't tell how HOW we are born again.
Are you really having trouble differentiating between the meanings of "who" and "how"? They are certainly different.
Let me know when you realize that you can't explain the "how". In the meantime, I will continue looking for your responses regarding the "how".
I agree. We do not give birth to ourselves. John 1:12 makes that real clear.
Why do you keep trying to change the subject? Is it because you really do NOT know HOW a person is born again?
I never asked how a person is not born again.
No, read it again. It tells us WHO gives us birth, which is God.
But, it doesn't tell how HOW we are born again.
Are you really having trouble differentiating between the meanings of "who" and "how"? They are certainly different.
Let me know when you realize that you can't explain the "how". In the meantime, I will continue looking for your responses regarding the "how".
FreeGrace2 said:
But it seems you really do NOT know how a person is made alive. How is that for another re-phrasing?
Again, all you are doing is telling me the WHO but not the HOW. Obviously being born again is from God. That's not the question.
But you still haven't even come close to answering the HOW, or to re-phrase once again, "the means of being born again". And it isn't a question of WHO. We've got that covered.
Can you transition to the HOW, or do you just not really know HOW, or by what means?
Another way to ask is this: on what basis (the HOW) does God give new birth to a person?
Maybe that is clear enough for you to understand my questions.
We know He doesn't give every human being a new birth. So, do you know the WHY of those He does give a new birth?
If you default to the calvinistic "limited atonement" line, I'll scream. That is NOT the answer either.
But it seems you really do NOT know how a person is made alive. How is that for another re-phrasing?
Again, all you are doing is telling me the WHO but not the HOW. Obviously being born again is from God. That's not the question.
But you still haven't even come close to answering the HOW, or to re-phrase once again, "the means of being born again". And it isn't a question of WHO. We've got that covered.
Can you transition to the HOW, or do you just not really know HOW, or by what means?
Another way to ask is this: on what basis (the HOW) does God give new birth to a person?
Maybe that is clear enough for you to understand my questions.
We know He doesn't give every human being a new birth. So, do you know the WHY of those He does give a new birth?
If you default to the calvinistic "limited atonement" line, I'll scream. That is NOT the answer either.
FreeGrace2 said:
When you realize that you can't answer my question, just let me know and I will be glad to inform you
Interesting response, given that you haven't been able to answer my question.
And you have not shown any evidence that I have misinterpreted any Scripture. You are the one having a real hard time trying to explain HOW or on what basis a person is born again.
I can give you clear verses about the HOW or on what BASIS a person is born again. Ready when you are.
When you realize that you can't answer my question, just let me know and I will be glad to inform you
Interesting response, given that you haven't been able to answer my question.
And you have not shown any evidence that I have misinterpreted any Scripture. You are the one having a real hard time trying to explain HOW or on what basis a person is born again.
I can give you clear verses about the HOW or on what BASIS a person is born again. Ready when you are.
FreeGrace2 said:
But it seems you really do NOT know how a person is made alive. How is that for another re-phrasing?
Again, all you are doing is telling me the WHO but not the HOW. Obviously being born again is from God. That's not the question.
But you still haven't even come close to answering the HOW, or to re-phrase once again, "the means of being born again". And it isn't a question of WHO. We've got that covered.
Can you transition to the HOW, or do you just not really know HOW, or by what means?
Another way to ask is this: on what basis (the HOW) does God give new birth to a person?
Maybe that is clear enough for you to understand my questions.
We know He doesn't give every human being a new birth. So, do you know the WHY of those He does give a new birth?
If you default to the calvinistic "limited atonement" line, I'll scream. That is NOT the answer either.
Maybe you just have a big reading problem. NONE of the verses you quoted support your ideas.
I have asked you a question that you have clearly demonstrated that you CANNOT answer. iow, you simply don't know.
Why don't you just admit that, instead of your blah blah blah nonsense about my being "indoctrinated in false doctrines".
It is YOU who can't answer my question. Probably because you don't even understand the question. So how could you answer it?
So, for the benefit of the readers only of this thread, I will answer my question.
The people who are born again by God are BELIEVERS. That's the HOW. That's the MEANS by which one is born again.
WHEN a person believes in Christ, God does a number of things for and to that person:
1. gives eternal life
2. justifies
3. seals in Christ by the Holy Spirit
4. new birth
5. becomes a new creation
All of these are irrevocable.
But it seems you really do NOT know how a person is made alive. How is that for another re-phrasing?
Again, all you are doing is telling me the WHO but not the HOW. Obviously being born again is from God. That's not the question.
But you still haven't even come close to answering the HOW, or to re-phrase once again, "the means of being born again". And it isn't a question of WHO. We've got that covered.
Can you transition to the HOW, or do you just not really know HOW, or by what means?
Another way to ask is this: on what basis (the HOW) does God give new birth to a person?
Maybe that is clear enough for you to understand my questions.
We know He doesn't give every human being a new birth. So, do you know the WHY of those He does give a new birth?
If you default to the calvinistic "limited atonement" line, I'll scream. That is NOT the answer either.
Maybe you just have a big reading problem. NONE of the verses you quoted support your ideas.
I have asked you a question that you have clearly demonstrated that you CANNOT answer. iow, you simply don't know.
Why don't you just admit that, instead of your blah blah blah nonsense about my being "indoctrinated in false doctrines".
It is YOU who can't answer my question. Probably because you don't even understand the question. So how could you answer it?
So, for the benefit of the readers only of this thread, I will answer my question.
The people who are born again by God are BELIEVERS. That's the HOW. That's the MEANS by which one is born again.
WHEN a person believes in Christ, God does a number of things for and to that person:
1. gives eternal life
2. justifies
3. seals in Christ by the Holy Spirit
4. new birth
5. becomes a new creation
All of these are irrevocable.
Whosoever will may come. God is not willing that any should perish.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
We see that believing is open to all, not just a privileged few.
2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
At this point, you have been shown the error of your ways and are accountable before God for any further spreading of you false doctrine. Please stop and think about that before further posting.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
We see that believing is open to all, not just a privileged few.
2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
At this point, you have been shown the error of your ways and are accountable before God for any further spreading of you false doctrine. Please stop and think about that before further posting.
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The inspired scriptures are a mystery to most of God's born again children. I will explain 2 Peter 3:9, where it will harmonize with the other scriptures, but most, well intended, students of the bible have their own ingrained idea of how they want to interpret the scriptures, which to my understanding, their interpretations conflict with other scriptures, instead of harmonizing.
We have to go back to 2 Peter 1:1, to find out who Peter is speaking to, and it is to them that have obtained like precious faith. Peter is giving a warning to those he is speaking to, even calling them "beloved" in the previous verse, that when they commit a sin, they should repent to avoid losing their fellowship with God. Peter even includes himself, in his warning, by using the word "usward".
Perish = death = separation. When a born again child of God commits a sin, he separates himself from fellowship with God, because God will not fellowship with sin, he even turned his back on his own Son, during that 3 hours (from 6 to 9) on the cross, when Christ was bearing the sins of those that his Father gave him, and calling out "My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me? (Mark 15:34).