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Perhaps they can love God without exactly knowing who they love.
This passage came to mind:
Acts 17:23,24
23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.
Paul said the altar of worship to An Unknown God was actually to the true God. People don’t worship a God they don’t love. They must have loved God before they were saved, but then later were informed about who He is.
This passage came to mind:
Acts 17:23,24
23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.
Paul said the altar of worship to An Unknown God was actually to the true God. People don’t worship a God they don’t love. They must have loved God before they were saved, but then later were informed about who He is.
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"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." (I John 4:10)
Cornelius feared God before being saved:
Acts chapter 10
[1] There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
[2] A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
[22] And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
[34] Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
[35] But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Does anybody here fear God?
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Proverbs 1:7)
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." (Proverbs 9:10)
Cornelius feared God before being saved:
Acts chapter 10
[1] There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
[2] A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
[22] And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
[34] Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
[35] But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Does anybody here fear God?
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Proverbs 1:7)
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." (Proverbs 9:10)
Paul equated this altar with idolatry, superstition, and ignorance, and, in God's stead, commanded these people to repent. Some of his hearers mocked him, others said that they wished to hear him again, and some believed.
Acts chapter 17
[16] Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
[17] Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
[18] Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
[19] And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
[20] For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
[21] (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
[22] Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
[23] For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
[25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
[26] And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
[27] That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
[28] For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
[30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
[31] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
[32] And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
[33] So Paul departed from among them.
[34] Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
Acts chapter 17
[16] Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
[17] Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
[18] Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
[19] And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
[20] For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
[21] (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
[22] Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
[23] For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
[25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
[26] And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
[27] That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
[28] For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
[30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
[31] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
[32] And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
[33] So Paul departed from among them.
[34] Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
The reason I don’t follow that is because Paul equated that particular altar to the Unknown God to God Himself. So I doubt Paul would have called an idol an altar to Yahweh Lord God Almighty Creator of the universe.
That’s just what Paul did, but it would have been great to be there and see what he was looking at.
Possibly they had an altar built to Old Testament biblical specifications there? One can only speculate.
That’s just what Paul did, but it would have been great to be there and see what he was looking at.
Possibly they had an altar built to Old Testament biblical specifications there? One can only speculate.
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I get what you're saying, but I don't agree.
The Greeks had a pantheon of "gods" who they falsely worshipped, and it certainly seems as if they were just superstitiously including an "unknown god" in case they had missed one. Paul's discourse was with a bunch of "philosophers" who "spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell or to hear some new thing". When they first heard Paul speak about Jesus and the resurrection, they called him "a babbler" and "a setter forth of strange gods".
How does any of that equate with an alleged love of the one true God?
It doesn't.
The very first commandment is to have no other "gods" before him, and, again, the Greeks had a pantheon of "gods" that they falsely worshipped.
Again, they were superstitious, philosophical, and ignorant idolaters. After hearing about Christ whom they allegedly loved, some mocked, others asked to hear Paul again, and some believed.
In other words, after their ignorance was dealt with, only some actually embraced Christ. The others demonstrated no love towards him whatsoever.
Acts chapter 17
[16] Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
[17] Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
[18] Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
[19] And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
[20] For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
[21] (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing)
[22] Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
[23] For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
[25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
[26] And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
[27] That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
[28] For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
[30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
[31] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
[32] And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
[33] So Paul departed from among them.
[34] Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
The Greeks had a pantheon of "gods" who they falsely worshipped, and it certainly seems as if they were just superstitiously including an "unknown god" in case they had missed one. Paul's discourse was with a bunch of "philosophers" who "spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell or to hear some new thing". When they first heard Paul speak about Jesus and the resurrection, they called him "a babbler" and "a setter forth of strange gods".
How does any of that equate with an alleged love of the one true God?
It doesn't.
The very first commandment is to have no other "gods" before him, and, again, the Greeks had a pantheon of "gods" that they falsely worshipped.
Again, they were superstitious, philosophical, and ignorant idolaters. After hearing about Christ whom they allegedly loved, some mocked, others asked to hear Paul again, and some believed.
In other words, after their ignorance was dealt with, only some actually embraced Christ. The others demonstrated no love towards him whatsoever.
Acts chapter 17
[16] Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
[17] Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
[18] Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
[19] And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
[20] For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
[21] (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing)
[22] Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
[23] For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
[24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
[25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
[26] And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
[27] That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
[28] For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
[30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
[31] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
[32] And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
[33] So Paul departed from among them.
[34] Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
Love comes in different degrees. You can love an object, a food, an activity, an animal, a person, etc. God judges the hearts of man, not man. All men are born with a body and a spirit. The heart of man is the unique spirit that each unique body possesses. Each spirit is created with a motivation for existing knowing that the life of the body will eventually die. We all fail because our motivation is wrong. God demands perfection. He perfects us by increasing the amount of love in our hearts through His Spirit which is in Jesus which is in us. The motivation of the natural man, which is the amount of love for God and man, is not enough. When we receive the Spirit of the Father and Son, their spirits and ours become one and our conscienceness and motivations are adjusted with their love in us.
Yeah, right.
Which is why he went around persecuting Christ/Christians as he was busy "kicking against the pricks" or fighting against God's attempts to chastise him unto repentance, right?
Sigh...
Acts chapter 9
[1] And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
[2] And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
[3] And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
[4] And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
[5] And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Which is why he went around persecuting Christ/Christians as he was busy "kicking against the pricks" or fighting against God's attempts to chastise him unto repentance, right?
Sigh...
Acts chapter 9
[1] And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
[2] And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
[3] And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
[4] And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
[5] And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
There is natural love and there is supernatural love. Natural love can exist in anyone, even Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc, who may strive to sincerely love God as best they understand Him. Supernatural love comes only after the Holy Spirit dwells in us through Christ, and then inspires us with that perfect supernatural love of God. Cornelius feared God and tried to obey what he knew of His Commandments before coming to Salvation in Christ. He is the classic example of the "naturally virtuous pagan/non-Christian". Those who have not yet heard the Gospel, are bound to keep God's Commandments as they know it through creation, nature, the law on their conscience etc, to strive to love God and their neighbor as they should. And if they are doing their best to do this, like God sent St. Peter to Cornelius, He will send someone to them, to bring them to Salvation in Christ. God Bless.
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I can’t accept that because it infers Paul misspoke and said the Unknown God isn’t the real God at all, but rather an idol. The plain text of the passage is preferable in this case and I believe they loved God before they were saved.
Paul said they were worshipping. Given that Paul knew worshipping is more than lip-service, he meant they were doing it with sincerity. Sincerity of worship is certainly love.
Paul said they were worshipping. Given that Paul knew worshipping is more than lip-service, he meant they were doing it with sincerity. Sincerity of worship is certainly love.
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Paul persecuted the church out of his zeal for God, but he did it ignorantly not knowing what he was doing. There was none more zealous and faithful than Paul in following God and his law.
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
In Acts 17:23,24 they had an altar for worshipping God. Albeit they were ignorant of who God is, they were worshipping Him none the less.
Paul confirmed it was genuine worship as opposed to lip service or false worship.
One can’t genuinely worship God without love so they loved God before they were saved.
As for the kind of love, only God knows. It could have been agape love, sure. Why not?
Paul confirmed it was genuine worship as opposed to lip service or false worship.
One can’t genuinely worship God without love so they loved God before they were saved.
As for the kind of love, only God knows. It could have been agape love, sure. Why not?
I don’t think Its possible to worship GOD with the kind of love that GOD will accept BEFORE salvation You are talking about love that would be more about worship from respect rather than worship from agape love.
sidenote:How does a person be perfect the way our heavenly Father IS perfect unless GOD creates them new?
sidenote:How does a person be perfect the way our heavenly Father IS perfect unless GOD creates them new?