Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

Since you "actually know what scripture says", the next step is for you to believe what Scripture says.

Scripture says faith ≠ works. Period.
.

Its you who dont understand scripture and now twisting it to your disfavor, and promote the very opposite to what the passage teaches, Justification by your works !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

reneweddaybyday – Post 2201

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

After you heard, you believed.

After you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regenerated / born again)


brightfame52 – Post #2231
Eph 1:13 is describing the regenerated person being brought to faith !


reneweddaybyday – Post 2268
Nope. The verse clearly states that after a person hears, they believe and after a person believes, they are sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (regenerated).

You are suggesting the verse reads that a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (regenerated) before they hear/believe and, clearly, that is not how the verse is written.

Your manipulation of Scripture fails.


brightfame52 – Post #2302
one must be made alive spiritually to hear


reneweddaybyday – Post 2341
just more of your "one must be born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma

You're saying that Ephesians 1:13 applies to the believer after he/she is born again????

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

After you heard, you believed.

After you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regenerated / born again)




brightfame52 said:
There is no spiritual hearing without being born of God.
You are trying to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma ... that is not proper interpretation of Scripture.

The verse clearly states that one is sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (which means to be born again) after he/she believes.

You have the verse backwards because you hold to your dogma rather than hold to Scripture. You are to hold to Scripture and where your dogma does not line up, let go of your error.

Just went over this issue. Hearing comes out of having life, just like seeing does. The fact that the Ephesians heard the word of truth, a spiritual message, was indicative of being in a spiritually saved state, born again by the Spirit, afterwards the believed, and the Spirit sealed the testimony in their minds heart, they can never become unbelievers again !

 

[brightfame52]

reneweddaybyday – Post 2342

... just more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma ...​

​

John 1:​

​

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.​

​

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:​

​

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

​

verse 12 explains what occurs when a person receives [Greek lambanō – to lay hold by aggressively(actively) accepting what is available] the Lord Jesus Christ as opposed to those who reject Him as those shown in vs 11.​

​

Those who lay hold by actively accepting the Lord Jesus Christ are granted the privilege, honor, right to become sons of God.​

​

even to them that believe on his name ... those who receive Him (lambanō – to lay hold by aggressively(actively) accepting) are the ones who believe on His name.​

​

verse 13 explains that those who receive Him ... those who believe on His name are begotten of God ... not in some distant time in the past to which you continuously infer ... but at the time they received [Greek lambanō – to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available] the Lord Jesus Christ and believed on his name (vs 12).​

​

Again, under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???​

... just more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma ...





If, as you claim "they were born again previously", there would be no need to be granted the privilege, honor, right to become the sons of God because, according to you, they already are born of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

Quit trying to manipulate Scripture to align to your erroneous dogma. Align your dogma with Scripture and where your dogma is in error, get rid of your error.





nope ... aorist indicative

A person is born again at the time he/she believes.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

As already proven, believing is resultive of having been born again.

 

[brightfame52]

If anyone "dishonestly twist things", it would be you. You "dishonestly twist" Scripture to align with your erroneous dogma ... you "dishonestly" submit posts in which you show me as having stated something submitted by you and then include my reply so that it appears I made both statements. I'm not surprised, though, because it's just you feeding your old, carnal nature rather than rendering it crucified.


Please, again, refresh your memory:

brightfame52 – Post 2189

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.​

reneweddaybyday – Post #2205

I have no problem with Romans 12:3 ... Since it is you who does not believe Romans 12:3, then it is you who has the problem with God.​

brightfame52 – Post #2234

You trying to make it apply to all mankind, when its referring only to the saints, particularly at the time of writing, the saints at rome Rom 1:7-87 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.​

reneweddaybyday – Post #2271

... so now you want me to believe that Romans 1:18-32 refers only to believers????​

brightfame52 – Post #2305

I dont know where you got that from​

reneweddaybyday – Post #2343

Now you claim you "don't know where [ I ] got that from"??? I "got that" from you ...​

​

You claimed in your Post #2234 that Romans refers "only to the saints, particularly at the time of writing, the saints at Rom 1:7-8".​

​

Since, according to you, Rom 12:3 applies "only to the saints, particularly at the time of writing, the saints at Rom 1:7-8", then Rom 1:18-32 applies "only to the saints, particularly at the time of writing, the saints at Rom 1:7-8".​

now you're starting to pick up what I laid down.

The only reason you are so insistent that there is more than one faith (even though Scripture tells us there is only one faith – Eph 4:5) and that no one has faith until he/she is regenerated (in order that he/she can believe the gospel by which he/she is regenerated – no Scripture to support that notion) is because you hold to your erroneous dogma rather than holding to the truth of Scripture.

Again, you are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, let go of the error.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!





Please note what Peter stated in Acts 3:19:

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord

The instruction to the people present that day was that they were to repent. Then, once they repent, and are born again, God works inside the believer to turn us away from iniquity.

Once we are born again, we are to continue to live our lives according to God's instruction ... according to the new man, the new creation ... God works within us to conform us to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29).

The person who claims to be a born again believer, yet continues to live his/her life according to the carnal flesh is either (1) not born again, or (2) born again but living according to the flesh (the "old man") which we are instructed to crucify according to Romans 6.


Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
.

All this is so confusing, you just posting without any direction and clarity.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

reneweddaybyday – Post 2206:

God justifies those who believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead for we are justified by faith. Those who reject God will find themselves rejected come judgment day.


brightfame52 – Post 2235
God Justifieth the ungodly, so that means He Justified them before Faith


reneweddaybyday – Post 2272
no it doesn't. Once a person is justified, they are no longer "ungodly".

So if a person is justified before he/she believes, he/she is not "ungodly".

Again, your erroneous dogma fails.



brightfame52 said:
God justifieth the ungodly, therefore they are justified before faith, while being ungodly.
If a person is justified, he/she is no longer "ungodly".




brightfame52 said:
Thats your confusion
I'm not confused ... your claim does not line up with Scripture because you are trying to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma does not align, you are to rid yourself of the error.




brightfame52 said:
A person is ungodly by nature, before they are born again. And if they are elect, they are Justified while unregenerate.
Your so-called "elect" are all part of the pool of humanity.

Prior to being born again, all descendants of Adam are ungodly.

Once a person is born again, he/she is a member of the body of Christ ... Who is the Elect. Once a person is born again, he/she is no longer ungodly.




brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
brightfame53, in your Post #910, you stated the following:
brightfame52 said:
And its no where in scripture where the believer in Christ is stated to be the ungodly
Click to expand...
Now you are adamant that once a person is born again, he/she is still considered "ungodly".

Not only does your erroneous dogma not align with Scripture, but your erroneous dogma does not align with itself!!!
Click to expand...
Right, so the elect were Justified while ungodly, while an unbeliever
Click to expand...
unbelievers are not justified. unbelievers are ungodly.

The Elect are Justified while being ungodly/unbelievers. Thats proven by Rom 4:25

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

reneweddaybyday – Post #2344

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The word believeth is also present tense.

The ungodly person believes and God imputes righteousness to him/her right then, right when the person believes (present tense) ... God justifies that person, right then (present tense) ... at that point, they are no longer "ungodly".

The elect can be and are Justified while being ungodly/unbelievers, but they cant believe while being ungodly, its that simple.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Your so-called "elect" are all part of the pool of humanity.

Prior to being born again, all descendants of Adam are ungodly.

Yes I agree with this

Once a person is born again, he/she is a member of the body of Christ ... Who is the Elect.

Disagree, the elect are part of the Body of Christ before they are born again, for they were Chosen in Christ before foundation of the world Eph 1:4 so they were part of His Body way before they were born again, or even before they were born period.

Once a person is born again, he/she is no longer ungodly.

Correct

unbelievers are not justified. unbelievers are ungodly.

Yes they are if they are elect and Christ died for them.

If they are not elect and Christ didnt die for them, you are correct.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed 447

brightfame52 – Post 2308

its a present tense participle, Hes Justifying the ungodly ! So if Justifying is in the present tense, so are the ungodly he is Justifying.


reneweddaybyday – Post #2344
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The word believeth is also present tense.

The ungodly person believes and God imputes righteousness to him/her right then, right when the person believes (present tense) ... God justifies that person, right then (present tense) ... at that point, they are no longer "ungodly".

Prior to being justified, all born again ones were ungodly (even your so-called "elect"). Once a person is born again, the Holy Spirit resides within. The born again one is no longer "ungodly".

You failed to prove your point or to disprove mine. The elect were being Justified while being ungodly, so their Justification before God was not due to any work, act of theirs, because they were ungodly. And if they were yet ungodly, they were not yet born again.

The same thing in Rom 5:10 the elect were reconciled to God by Christs death while being enemies/ungodly Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom 5:10 is equivalent to Rom 4:5

Scripture teaches when a person is saved ... born again ... sealed with the holy Spirit of promise ... regenerated ... doesn't matter what you want to call it ... the person is born again when Scripture tells us:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

After you heard, you believed.

After you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regenerated / born again)


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

One other thing, being born again and the Spirit sealing are not the same !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

enemies translated from Greek echthros – ("enemy"), implies irreconcilable hostility,

reconciled translated from Greek katallássō – decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

According to Rom 5:10 when were they reconciled to God ? How were they reconciled to God ?

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

The one who is justified by faith (Rom 5:1) is no longer an enemy because he/she is now reconciled. Both parties are now reconciled.

Right this person is born again because now they have faith, the fruit of the Spirit. However they were reconciled to God before Faith solely by the death of Christ, even when they were enemies, ungody, unbelievers Rom 5:10

God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.

Partly correct, He only reconciled Himself to the elect of mankind, those who shall be believers. And He only reconciled some of mankind by the death of His Son, only those whom He shall save by His Life. Read the verse Rom 5:10

The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she is justified. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (see definition of reconciled translated from Greek katallássō).

The believer is the one who had already been reconciled previously to God by Christs death while being an enemy, but when they are born again, and given Faith, they are reconciled experientially, spiritually, converted and begin to live a life of faith and peace with God.

 

[brightfame52]

brightfame52 ... in your Post 2387, you replied to yourself.
.

Im not sure thats accurate, but if I mistakenly did, its still the truth, the elect were Justified before God by Christs death while they were being ungodly, so apart from Faith/Believing.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

The word "evidence" is translated from the Greek word elegchos which means that by which invisible things are proved.

I know that, hence Faith given the Justified convinces them they are Justified by Christs Blood and Righteousness. See the elects Justification before God is invisible, its not tangible, but intangible and Spiritual. Yet it convinces the mind, the conscience of Justification before God reality.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Righteousness has been imputed when one believes.
nope ... it [righteousness] shall be imputed ...

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

Its the same, shall be imputed means that those who shall believe in the future had righteousness imputed to them also, since Christ rose from the dead for their Justification as well Rom 4:25. The reality is, everyone Christ died for and rose for have been Justified/declared righteous before God, either before the cross, and after the cross, to all righteousness has been imputed and they will be regenerated so they can believe.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

The gospel is what God's Word says it is ... the gospel is not some cutesy construct of man [TULIP] whereby what God's Word tells us is the gospel is tossed aside in order to hold on to erroneous dogma.

The Doctrines of Grace are Gospel of Gods Grace Truths. Do you know what they are ?

You scoff at God's Word. Your attempts to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma fail miserably.

Thats what you do, you scoff the Truths of Tulip which are vital Gospel Truths of Gods Grace

in 1 Tim 2:4, you have to change "all man" to "all elect"

1 Timothy 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


in John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 1 John 2:2, you have to change "the world" and "the whole world" to "the world of the elect"

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

All these scriptures refer to all of Gods Elect

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

The Lord Jesus Christ is not descended from Abraham.

Yet He is the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Matt 1:1

The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

And Believers are the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In fact, Salvation is only for the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

Joseph and Mary were lineal descendants of Abraham.

Thats true but it doesnt help your case at all

The point of Hebrews 2:16 is not the lineal genealogy of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ is not a lineal descendant of any man or woman.

That wasnt my point I was making. The point Im making is that Christ came to exclusively save the seed of Abraham, thats who He Identified with in order to save.

In Philippians 2, we are told that the Lord Jesus Christ was made in the likeness of men ... that is the same truth as Heb 2:16 ... Philippians just refers to the more general pool of humanity.

What you think the seed of Abraham is, frogs or something ? Guess what they were men, sinful men at that.

BTW the Seed of Abraham of Heb 2:16 has absolutely nothing to do with race, ethnicity. Its a multi racial society

And get this straight, brightfame52 ... because you have a tendency to believe that Scripture is about the "elect

".

It is, Jesus Christ Gods Elect, and His Seed Chosen in Him

Only the blood of Christ can cleanse from all iniquity.

Wait a minute, dont you teach that people Christ shed His Blood for still die in their sins/iniquity ? What happen ?

 

[persistent]

Maybe I'm a butinsky here BUT just had to comment seeing this started on my birthday in 2021 and still going and I being kind of new to all this, happened to listen to a sermon by Charles Spurgeon on 1 August of this year called "the believers challenge" based on Rom.8:34. I still have a hard time understanding most of the Bible but when I listen to Spurgeon's sermons they make sense to me. Is there some serious flaw with the way Spurgeon preached?

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

You know what is not mentioned in Rev 5:9? "Spiritual seed of Abraham" ... "Spiritual seed of Israel".

Which means Nothing, thats who it is in Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Israel is whom God promised to redeem Ps 130:8

And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

Lk 1:68

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

All whom Christ died and redeemed belong to Him and they are the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Recipients
The letter was addressed primarily to Jewish converts who were familiar with the OT and who were being tempted to revert to Judaism or to Judaize the gospel

(cf. Gal 2:14). Some have suggested that these professing Jewish Christians were thinking of merging with a Jewish sect, such as the one at Qumran near the Dead Sea. It has also been suggested that the recipients were from the "large number of priests who became obedient to the faith" (Acs 6:7).

Still Salvation isnt based upon race. Thats mans pride

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

I understand that's what you believe. However, when you believe that "faith is found in the new created born again man", what you are saying is that the man must be born again in order to believe Scripture wherein he/she is born again.

One has to be born again to believe in Jesus. I have showed you this many times.

I understand that's what you believe. However, when you believe that "faith is found in the new created born again man", what you are saying is that the man must be born again in order to believe Scripture wherein he/she is born again.

Under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???





Hear this:

Scripture clearly states that faith ≠ works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.







NIV:

However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.


ESV:

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness


NKJV:

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness


ISV:

However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
.

You haven't provided anything saying believing isnt a work. If you condition your Justification before God on your act of believing, that's works, that's your merit.

 

[brightfame52]

I understand your dilemma in having to hold to your limited atonement fallacy.

You are not to try to force Scripture to align with your erroneous dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, get rid of the error.

The whole world is the whole world ... you are free to suppress the truth in unrighteousness as you add add a little here ... remove a little there. At that point, you no longer have Scripture.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. Wisdom 10:1)): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29(John 1:36 L in brackets); John 3:16f; 6:33,51; 8:26; 12:47; 13:1; 14:31; 16:28; 17:6,21,23; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); 1 Corinthians 4:13; 5:10; 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 ( cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536));​

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
.

I know the various definitions of world in the lexicons. One of definitions is:

1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3. the world, the universe
4. the circle of the earth, the earth
5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
   1. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
   1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2889/kjv/tr/0-1/

The collection of all Gods elect are the world of those verses. The gathering together and collection of His Sheep

 

[brightfame52]

just more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma

Since [according to you] they're already "having been born of God" (vs 13), they are already "sons of God" and there is no reason for them to "become the sons of God" (vs 12) ... no reason for the Lord Jesus Christ to have to give them anything.

So, again, under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???

Your erroneous dogma again fails under the full scrutiny of the light of Scripture.
.

Except a person is born again they cant see, hear, understand the things of the Kingdom of God.