The World vs the Child of God

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pablocito

Guest
#21
Hi pablocito,

Could you explain the above.

Better still could you show in scripture where we have the Holy Spirit starting our sanctification and at the end of this sanctification at some unspecified time the Spirit of Christ then comes in and seals and preserves..
You messed up our initial correspondence (this one) by quoting some human figure - Matthew Henry. I would have preferred if you had quoted the bible instead.

Little do we know or understand the impact that those foreign actors have on our thinking and our perspective concerning godly things.

Not accusing or blaming you, I can now understand why you ask the question that you do. A question that should never be asked as it is the core principle of the entire New Testament being promulgated by the New Testament writers.

I will only give you a clue but I will encourage you to revisit all verses on salvation or redemption and hope you see the truth clearly with unfeigned eyes.

Even John the Baptist who did not know Jesus, and even before Jesus came on the scene knew the way to salvation, because he spoke the words of God, because he was sent from God, and he had the Holy Spirit within him guiding him.

He spoke about his mission in the first instance, but afterwards spoke about the mission of Jesus by saying this:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

This is the first instance, though not as clear as Paul's and Peter's and Christ's writings that the way to salvation is a step process. He says the Holy Ghost is needed but also that fire was the final step.

Revisit Paul's, Peter's, Jude's and Christ's sayings and you will understand those steps very clearly as they are explicit.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#22
You messed up our initial correspondence (this one) by quoting some human figure - Matthew Henry. I would have preferred if you had quoted the bible instead.

Little do we know or understand the impact that those foreign actors have on our thinking and our perspective concerning godly things.

Not accusing or blaming you, I can now understand why you ask the question that you do. A question that should never be asked as it is the core principle of the entire New Testament being promulgated by the New Testament writers.

I will only give you a clue but I will encourage you to revisit all verses on salvation or redemption and hope you see the truth clearly with unfeigned eyes.

Even John the Baptist who did not know Jesus, and even before Jesus came on the scene knew the way to salvation, because he spoke the words of God, because he was sent from God, and he had the Holy Spirit within him guiding him.

He spoke about his mission in the first instance, but afterwards spoke about the mission of Jesus by saying this:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

This is the first instance, though not as clear as Paul's and Peter's and Christ's writings that the way to salvation is a step process. He says the Holy Ghost is needed but also that fire was the final step.

Revisit Paul's, Peter's, Jude's and Christ's sayings and you will understand those steps very clearly as they are explicit.

Mmmm 🤔. I was quoting you.
 
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pablocito

Guest
#23
Mmmm 🤔. I was quoting you.
Sorry, I was reading the quote at the bottom of your message. The one that says -

What God requires of us he himself works in us etc etc etc.

I know it did not have anything to do with the content of our discussion but I guess, I observe everything and take everything into consideration.

In the old testament, which really is a graphical representation of the New Testament, I have heard the argument that God has changed. But that is far from the truth. The Old Testament brings the New Testament into clearer view, giving us a really personal knowledge of God. Without the Old Testament it is possible that one really could not know God in all his fullness. The Old Testament spells it out for us in detail.

We come to God through Jesus Christ, but God is the all in all that we need to know. Of course Jesus Christ is God, but in the New Testament, he came as the Son of man, and as our savior.

So getting back to the quote that I made about Matthew Henry, in the Old Testament God told the Israelites to destroy the enemy in total, and not to bring anything belonging to the enemy into their houses. Not even their gold or anything else as those items would corrupt them (the Israelites).

So I believe that the word of God is the only thing that represents God and any opinions or statements about God from any man is off limits to me.
 
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pablocito

Guest
#24
Mmmm 🤔. I was quoting you.
This is my last response to you unless you decide to follow up on this post.
I might be wrong but it is possible that you are offended by my previous reply to you.

But God is no respecter of persons and we too should not respect anyone. The way I answered you would be the same as I would have answered my mother or even those who I love on this earth. Favoritism is not in God's vocabulary.

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

I will give a few verses to elaborate upon the discussion we were having yesterday.

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

The most important word in the above verse is the word "and".

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied

The most important word again is "and".

You have to realize that sanctification is a process in the New testament. That was why Jesus came to his servants in the church of Laodecia and told them to open their hearts so that he could enter.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is just a few verses and the entire New Testament has scores of such verses, even though they are phrased differently.

A person must stop being conditioned by past traditions, so they they can evaluate each bible verse for themselves.

Finally the Jews of Old, the astute teachers, probably knew the scriptures verbatim, but Jesus called them blind, because they were brainwashed by their traditions.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
482
83
#25
Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.


Perhaps the thoughts and hearts of the grown-up people are not pure, they can not be as pure as children, and they can not understand the words of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe sometimes we should try to read the Bible from the perspective of children, without so much purpose.
 
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persistent

Guest
#26
Hi pablocito,

Could you explain the above.

Better still could you show in scripture where we have the Holy Spirit starting our sanctification and at the end of this sanctification at some unspecified time the Spirit of Christ then comes in and seals and preserves..
It seems that the quote of Henry is what Keller teaches in a sermon I think he calls "converted by the spirit".
 
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pablocito

Guest
#27
Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.


Perhaps the thoughts and hearts of the grown-up people are not pure, they can not be as pure as children, and they can not understand the words of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe sometimes we should try to read the Bible from the perspective of children, without so much purpose.
I have no comment because you are 200% right. There really is nothing else to add. May God bless you.

Just an after thought, we grown-ups have too much excess baggage in our closets, and also in our minds that are often just junk, which we cannot let go, because we have become too attached to them.

Children are often so honest that sometimes they unknowingly send their parents to prison, because they cannot lie. It's very difficult for them to lie.

But unfortunately in our present world children are being fed and indoctrinated with lies from kindergarten, and elementary schools that they too now cannot tell their right hand from their left hand.
 
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pablocito

Guest
#28
Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.


Perhaps the thoughts and hearts of the grown-up people are not pure, they can not be as pure as children, and they can not understand the words of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe sometimes we should try to read the Bible from the perspective of children, without so much purpose.

Just an addition to our previous comments.
This bible verse brings more clarity to God's infinite ways and our inability to understand scripture or God without his Spirit leading us at all times.

We are one-dimensional in our thinking and our actions while God is infinite-dimensional, because he is God.

The Apostle Paul says:
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Paul again says this:
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The last verse shows that God inputs these powers into our lives of which wisdom is the first. Reading the bible is actually a stumbling block or trap for the unbeliever, one who does not believe in God, because God has not supplied him with the necessary resources to understand it.

God's ways are past finding out for the unbeliever and it would be better for them to stick to man's science books and "the like" than mess around with the bible.

As God put an obstacle around the tree of life in the garden of Eden; God has put a protection around his bible to prevent his enemies from entering therein.

The bible is called the book of life similar to the tree of life in the garden of Eden.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,074
1,075
113
#29
water baptism is exclusively for Christian’s who believe Jesus does and rose it’s where this transition happens

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baltism has nothing to do with the law or ordinance of Moses not a command to only Jews by Jesus . they under Moses law all were baptized in Moses name not Christs like I was saying Moses law is a figure the gospel is reality

The law of Moses had its own figure of baptism

“Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you have it sort of backwards the old testsment is the prophecy the New Testament is the reality baptism is well explained in scripture

your saying it’s a Jewish thing commanded to the Jews according to Moses law Jesus says it’s for all nations who believe the gospel

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Baptism and everything Jesus taught the Jews is what’s sent to the entire world here’s more proof that you probably won’t accept

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

believing and getting baptized says the lord, now of course your argument is baptism in water is not a Christian doctrine and never was but baptism is for a believer of Jesus and the gospel here’s proof

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:36-38‬

Philip just didn’t get it probably so he baptized in Water this gentile Ethiopian eunuch

forst he needed to believe in Jesus death and resurrection he was reading about in Isaiah 53 and then if he believed he could get baptized in water

another example with gentiles when they had tbier sort of day of pentocost and we’re baptized with the spirit by the lord because they believed

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter must not have understood either apparently because he commands water baptism to this group of gentile believers

And of Peter just didn’t get it it would make sense why he said baptism is for remission of sins and fulfillment of the promise to Abraham to all nations

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41‬ ‭

I know you won’t accept this but think it through by did the apostle Peter specifically make the command to these gentiles to get baptized in water ? Did Peter not understand what you do ? Or maybe is the fact baptism hasn’t changed and began with the gospel like it makes so obvious ?

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭

that has been sent to all Mankind now
baptism is where the gospel begins , it’s why we can come near to Jesus and repent and learn from him our sins we’re remitted . it wasn’t until Jesus died and rose that all he had established went into effect while Jesus lived before his death the law was still in effect when Jesus died and shed the blood of remission , the transition happens

“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, ( the New Testament is what Jesus said he’s the only mediator between God and man ) that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus was speaking the New Testament when he died his word went into effect until that the law was the moment Jesus sent the gospel and baptism to the world all nations everything changed the whole testament. Because Jesus commands baptism toward all nations that’s the end of the matter for a Christian believer it has nothing to do with only Jews nothing to do with Moses law but remission of the sins imputes by the law

baptism is based on Jesus death and resurrection it’s why you are buried in water and raised up from water it has nothing in any way to do with anything Moses had commanded israel they were all baptized into moses and his law we aren’t we need to accept baptism into this name and doctrine

“When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭

you can say that’s not speaking of “ water “ baptism but I’ve shown you that’s what they were doing that’s the only baptism there is for us to do Jesus is who sends the holy spirit to a believer baptism is for remission of sins and is performed in water always has been since the gospel began with johns ministry of repentance and remission of sins regarding faith in Christ

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-6‬ ‭

now for you to say Peter commanding water baptism for remission of sins isn’t the one baptism would just be erroneous and saying Peter didn’t get it

the apostles were all baptized including Paul

“And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭9:18, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And they taught baptism and it’s deep meanings as I’ve provided above from ramans Six one aspect there’s also another point that sort of makes you think about what your saying Ali baptism being a “ Jewish “ thing

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism isn’t a Jewish or gentile thing it’s a Christian thing and an Abraham’s inheritance thing , and a remission of sins thing and is based solely upon the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and his name it’s for any Christian who wants remission of thier sins in his name
Thank you for your willingness to be a vessel led by the Holy Spirit to provide God's truth. It is refreshing to see these topics expressed with such clarity. Continue to be blessed!
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,201
5,303
113
#30
Thank you for your willingness to be a vessel led by the Holy Spirit to provide God's truth. It is refreshing to see these topics expressed with such clarity. Continue to be blessed!

much love brother , if we open our ears there’s a lot of value in many of the posts people write in this forum I’ve learned a lot of details from others writings here yours among many other folks

I think we are all vessels for Jesus just the fact we’re here looking into his word and sharing it with each other along with some of our thoughts and experiences.

it’s definately a group thing that provides any edification the key for us all is to open up to what the Bible says and believe it

I appreciate the encouragement and brotherly love and as much so the throngs you share when you do I have found great clarity and edification for myself personally through considering so much of what people have to say here

sometimes the contention here makes it hard but also sometimes contention if it’s respectful can change things we didn’t quite have a grasp of going both ways

I appreciate you and many others here who do the exact same things that I benefit from . This place is a blessing if we have an open mind towards scripture