"You all know that a God exists" - Bruggencate, etc.

[AndrewMorgan]

I'd like to hear people's views on this idea, promoted by Sye Ten Bruggencate etc. - that God has somehow revealed His 0existence to each one of us and that "atheists" are suppressing this truth in unrighteousness.
A personal anecdote - I wasn't brought up in a religious home, but in my situation (early 60s Britain), there was a general feeling that God existed as this remote, vaguely benign figure, perhaps akin to a celestial Santa Claus (or Father Christmas, as British people tend to call him).
One day, when I was - I guess - about 3 - one of my parents - prob. my mother - mentioned the fact about their naming me "Andrew". My reaction was "What?!" I'd thought that God had named me "Andrew". Even 'though we weren't overtly religious, I'd just assumed God's existence and part in my life.
Maybe, this was like coming to God "as a little child", rather than with sophistry. Maybe, this corresponds with Bruggencate's "instinctive believing.

 

[Jesusfollower]

I'd like to hear people's views on this idea, promoted by Sye Ten Bruggencate etc. - that God has somehow revealed His 0existence to each one of us and that "atheists" are suppressing this truth in unrighteousness.
A personal anecdote - I wasn't brought up in a religious home, but in my situation (early 60s Britain), there was a general feeling that God existed as this remote, vaguely benign figure, perhaps akin to a celestial Santa Claus (or Father Christmas, as British people tend to call him).
One day, when I was - I guess - about 3 - one of my parents - prob. my mother - mentioned the fact about their naming me "Andrew". My reaction was "What?!" I'd thought that God had named me "Andrew". Even 'though we weren't overtly religious, I'd just assumed God's existence and part in my life.
Maybe, this was like coming to God "as a little child", rather than with sophistry. Maybe, this corresponds with Bruggencate's "instinctive believing.

Revelation 2:17
New King James Version
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”

The little children always know.....
Peace,

JF

 

[persistent]

I'd like to hear people's views on this idea, promoted by Sye Ten Bruggencate etc. - that God has somehow revealed His 0existence to each one of us and that "atheists" are suppressing this truth in unrighteousness.
A personal anecdote - I wasn't brought up in a religious home, but in my situation (early 60s Britain), there was a general feeling that God existed as this remote, vaguely benign figure, perhaps akin to a celestial Santa Claus (or Father Christmas, as British people tend to call him).
One day, when I was - I guess - about 3 - one of my parents - prob. my mother - mentioned the fact about their naming me "Andrew". My reaction was "What?!" I'd thought that God had named me "Andrew". Even 'though we weren't overtly religious, I'd just assumed God's existence and part in my life.
Maybe, this was like coming to God "as a little child", rather than with sophistry. Maybe, this corresponds with Bruggencate's "instinctive believing.

WOW!!! I'm on the same page brother. Only my family was religious. Roman Catholics. Now I am trying to recall what I was taking in and when. I see Sye is available on internet and will check out his "spin". Which just from your post and my own recent thinking about the same thing makes me think something greater than ourselves is at work here. Maybe there really is a "Father Christmas". I still get these inclinations to say to myself, "Quit being such a dope; these ideas about God are ridiculous". I kind of think my unbelief almost overwhelms me at times. And here is one of these early incidents that pulls me back from the brink. Not too long ago I got hold of Psalm 73:2 'my feet nearly slipped, I was almost gone'. My paraphrase?? At age 12 or 13 me and some friends were on bicycles at a place known as Starved Rock which is some 90 miles southwest of Chicago where we lived. The area is full of deep canyons, maybe 50 foot drops or more, and we were able to bike near the edge on existing paths. At some point I was off my bike for some reason, which I can't recall, and on a 45or so degree incline and holding on to some little twigs to get back on the path. And I do remember 'my feet almost slipping' and when back on the path I found a place to look down and it pretty much scared me since it was at almost the highest point. I have been there a couple of times since then and just guess had I fallen it could have been very serious if not fatal. And then I also can't recall if this incident happened in reality or was it an extremely vivid dream. I can't figure out how we could have been on bicycles 90 miles from where we lived unless someone had driven us there. And I can't recall knowing anyone that would do so. It is all a mystery to me.

 

[Eli1]

I'd like to hear people's views on this idea, promoted by Sye Ten Bruggencate etc. - that God has somehow revealed His 0existence to each one of us and that "atheists" are suppressing this truth in unrighteousness.
A personal anecdote - I wasn't brought up in a religious home, but in my situation (early 60s Britain), there was a general feeling that God existed as this remote, vaguely benign figure, perhaps akin to a celestial Santa Claus (or Father Christmas, as British people tend to call him).
One day, when I was - I guess - about 3 - one of my parents - prob. my mother - mentioned the fact about their naming me "Andrew". My reaction was "What?!" I'd thought that God had named me "Andrew". Even 'though we weren't overtly religious, I'd just assumed God's existence and part in my life.
Maybe, this was like coming to God "as a little child", rather than with sophistry. Maybe, this corresponds with Bruggencate's "instinctive believing.

Great topic.
First of all I don’t know who Sye Ten Bruggencate is.
In regards to your question, the existence of God is somehow imparted in all of us but in the case of Atheists, they choose to reject God because they base their reality and existence from a materialistic point of view only.
For example, tribes in Amazon or Africa have been asked about the existence of God and their answers are along the lines of ”Our spirt goes to the Sky aka God”. Now these are people who have never had contact with the outside world and have no idea what Christianity or Buddhism is.
So this tells me that humans have a built-in capability to be aware of God without seeing Him.
This means that if a human is raised by the wolves in the forest, then he will show some inclination towards a Creator.
So this would. be the logical explanation.
The materialistic explanation would be in the form of miracles which atheists still reject because they want things reproduced in a lab on demand. Again they base their whole existence from a materialistic point of view only.

 

[Eli1]

Atheists are also incorrect in their language usage and are a bit in denial because they don’t apply the same rigorousity to themselves that they require from others. But that’s another topic.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

WOW!!! I'm on the same page brother. Only my family was religious. Roman Catholics. Now I am trying to recall what I was taking in and when. I see Sye is available on internet and will check out his "spin". Which just from your post and my own recent thinking about the same thing makes me think something greater than ourselves is at work here. Maybe there really is a "Father Christmas". I still get these inclinations to say to myself, "Quit being such a dope; these ideas about God are ridiculous". I kind of think my unbelief almost overwhelms me at times. And here is one of these early incidents that pulls me back from the brink. Not too long ago I got hold of Psalm 73:2 'my feet nearly slipped, I was almost gone'. My paraphrase?? At age 12 or 13 me and some friends were on bicycles at a place known as Starved Rock which is some 90 miles southwest of Chicago where we lived. The area is full of deep canyons, maybe 50 foot drops or more, and we were able to bike near the edge on existing paths. At some point I was off my bike for some reason, which I can't recall, and on a 45or so degree incline and holding on to some little twigs to get back on the path. And I do remember 'my feet almost slipping' and when back on the path I found a place to look down and it pretty much scared me since it was at almost the highest point. I have been there a couple of times since then and just guess had I fallen it could have been very serious if not fatal. And then I also can't recall if this incident happened in reality or was it an extremely vivid dream. I can't figure out how we could have been on bicycles 90 miles from where we lived unless someone had driven us there. And I can't recall knowing anyone that would do so. It is all a mystery to me.

Thanks for your input.
I had some difficulty in phrasing this response. I hope I've accurately represented you.
May I ask - re. your uncertainty - Are your overall thoughts that you are "uprooted" as to having a firm belief? Maybe I've missed something, but I'm unsure as to whether you "favor" belief or unbelief.
It seems you're tending toward belief, but your doubt is threatening toward unbelief.

 

[persistent]

Great topic.
First of all I don’t know who Sye Ten Bruggencate is.
In regards to your question, the existence of God is somehow imparted in all of us but in the case of Atheists, they choose to reject God because they base their reality and existence from a materialistic point of view only.
For example, tribes in Amazon or Africa have been asked about the existence of God and their answers are along the lines of ”Our spirt goes to the Sky aka God”. Now these are people who have never had contact with the outside world and have no idea what Christianity or Buddhism is.I
So this tells me that humans have a built-in capability to be aware of God without seeing Him.
This means that if a human is raised by the wolves in the forest, then he will show some inclination towards a Creator.
So this would. be the logical explanation.
The materialistic explanation would be in the form of miracles which atheists still reject because they want things reproduced in a lab on demand. Again they base their whole existence from a materialistic point of view only.

Makes me think of the movie or it is possibly a documentary possibly called "Wild Child". The movie may be fictional but there are documented cases of children having been "brought up" under extremely cruel conditions so that they were so severely impaired that they had virtually no capacity for any understanding. Even children developing under conditions of severe famine may be precluded from having "normal" mental capacity. Would these people fit in to this debate? Or how about the people on Sentinel Island that killed the missionary ?Allen Chau? Nov. 2018 I think. those folks are really really isolated sounds like.

 

[Eli1]

Makes me think of the movie or it is possibly a documentary possibly called "Wild Child". The movie may be fictional but there are documented cases of children having been "brought up" under extremely cruel conditions so that they were so severely impaired that they had virtually no capacity for any understanding. Even children developing under conditions of severe famine may be precluded from having "normal" mental capacity. Would these people fit in to this debate? Or how about the people on Sentinel Island that killed the missionary ?Allen Chau? Nov. 2018 I think. those folks are really really isolated sounds like.

When approaching another “species” of humans who have never had contact with the outside world, then you want to make sure you dont offend them and see you as a threat. You also want to make sure that you dont approach them with the attitude that they are “wrong” or “incorrect”.
With that being said, they must have their own rituals.
So these rituals are the point of this topic which is Atheists vs Belivers.

 

[persistent]

Thanks for your input.
I had some difficulty in phrasing this response. I hope I've accurately represented you.
May I ask - re. your uncertainty - Are your overall thoughts that you are "uprooted" as to having a firm belief? Maybe I've missed something, but I'm unsure as to whether you "favor" belief or unbelief.
It seems you're tending toward belief, but your doubt is threatening toward unbelief.

Near as I can tell, although I grew up with Roman Catholic religion, I was early on turned away from any belief calling my self an atheist starting at maybe 11 years old and having some exposure to Protestant beliefs at age 19 to 25 seemed to not really decrease my antagonistic feelings to religion and/or God. When I was about 65 an incident with my neighbor regarding their house possibly being burgled set me thinking about an incident that I was involved in at age 15 which set me on the path to realizing I had been the "devil's fool" for most of my life. So I think that now I always have to remember that scripture about 'helping my unbelief'. I sort of got the impression you were talking about something similar. Uncertainty, unbelief, lack of faith, doubt??

 

[persistent]

When approaching another “species” of humans who have never had contact with the outside world, then you want to make sure you dont offend them and see you as a threat. You also want to make sure that you dont approach them with the attitude that they are “wrong” or “incorrect”.
With that being said, they must have their own rituals.
So these rituals are the point of this topic which is Atheists vs Belivers.

You may learn something at this link.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Chau

 

[persistent]

I'd like to hear people's views on this idea, promoted by Sye Ten Bruggencate etc. - that God has somehow revealed His 0existence to each one of us and that "atheists" are suppressing this truth in unrighteousness.
A personal anecdote - I wasn't brought up in a religious home, but in my situation (early 60s Britain), there was a general feeling that God existed as this remote, vaguely benign figure, perhaps akin to a celestial Santa Claus (or Father Christmas, as British people tend to call him).
One day, when I was - I guess - about 3 - one of my parents - prob. my mother - mentioned the fact about their naming me "Andrew". My reaction was "What?!" I'd thought that God had named me "Andrew". Even 'though we weren't overtly religious, I'd just assumed God's existence and part in my life.
Maybe, this was like coming to God "as a little child", rather than with sophistry. Maybe, this corresponds with Bruggencate's "instinctive believing.

PS I see that Sye has a website and it seems to me that he is trying to get a following? Maybe a cult?

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Thanks fo

Great topic.
First of all I don’t know who Sye Ten Bruggencate is.
In regards to your question, the existence of God is somehow imparted in all of us but in the case of Atheists, they choose to reject God because they base their reality and existence from a materialistic point of view only. Bruggencate is a dedicated Christian apologist - I've seen a few debates between him and others, including Matt Dillahunty of the "Atheist Experience"
For example, tribes in Amazon or Africa have been asked about the existence of God and their answers are along the lines of ”Our spirt goes to the Sky aka God”. Now these are people who have never had contact with the outside world and have no idea what Christianity or Buddhism is.
So this tells me that humans have a built-in capability to be aware of God without seeing Him.
This means that if a human is raised by the wolves in the forest, then he will show some inclination towards a Creator.
So this would. be the logical explanation.
The materialistic explanation would be in the form of miracles which atheists still reject because they want things reproduced in a lab on demand. Again they base their whole existence from a materialistic point

Thanks for your response.
Bruggencate is a dedicated Christian apologist. I've seen a few debates between him and atheists - eg - Matt Dillahunty of the "Atheist Experience". I've come across his basic idea (that everyone knows God exists, but some are suppressing this knowledge) before, but his approach is particularly -for want of a better word - "abrupt".
He has irritated listeners with his put-down lines, like "...but you (admit that you) could be wrong" after a sometimes lengthy well- thought out discourse. His stance is that without God, nothing makes sense and no "logic" is valid without starting from this point.
Someone (else) pointed out the point you made about remote tribes having a sense of a transcendent being - even the idea that animals having this sense too.
PS - as a side note - Bruggencate was recently involved in an episode "with a vulnerable woman", in which he admitted he "took advantage of her". I don't want to overstate the severity of this - I don't think any crime was committed - it was more of something that was deemed inappropriate for a Christian.
Because of this, he has now decided (or has been persuaded) to give no further debates as it would be considered inappropriate for him to represent the cause of Christ.

 

[Eli1]

You may learn something at this link.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Chau

Yes I am familiar with that event.

 

[phil36]

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Romans 1:18-25

 

[AndrewMorgan]

I don

PS I see that Sye has a website and it seems to me that he is trying to get a following? Maybe a cult?

I don't know.
It has been said (perhaps somewhat "dodgily") that "one man's cult is another man's denomination". I personally feel that , although I share others' irritation in his interaction style, he is trying to authentically promote the cause of Christ.
I think his no-nonsense style is his way of "cutting through the crap" of others' indulgences.

 

[Eli1]

I don

I don't know.
It has been said (perhaps somewhat "dodgily") that "one man's cult is another man's denomination". I personally feel that , although I share others' irritation in his interaction style, he is trying to authentically promote the cause of Christ.
I think his no-nonsense style is his way of "cutting through the crap" of others' indulgences.

Exactly and I totally agree with you.
‘This is why I don’t confuse the Christian religion of men who have committed atrocities throughout history with God.
‘Because Jesus when He was here told us some very different messages and how to live our lives which is contrary to control, manipulation and war.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Near as I can tell, although I grew up with Roman Catholic religion, I was early on turned away from any belief calling my self an atheist starting at maybe 11 years old and having some exposure to Protestant beliefs at age 19 to 25 seemed to not really decrease my antagonistic feelings to religion and/or God. When I was about 65 an incident with my neighbor regarding their house possibly being burgled set me thinking about an incident that I was involved in at age 15 which set me on the path to realizing I had been the "devil's fool" for most of my life. So I think that now I always have to remember that scripture about 'helping my unbelief'. I sort of got the impression you were talking about something similar. Uncertainty, unbelief, lack of faith, doubt??

Thanks.
From how you've responded, I think I'd understood.

 

[persistent]

I don

I don't know.
It has been said (perhaps somewhat "dodgily") that "one man's cult is another man's denomination". I personally feel that , although I share others' irritation in his interaction style, he is trying to authentically promote the cause of Christ.
I think his no-nonsense style is his way of "cutting through the crap" of others' indulgences.

I am really new to all of finer points of Christianity and didn't listen to any of his talk but saw the title to a video of Sye debating some apparently well known "atheist" and that is way out of my league. His website just looks a little off-putting to me. If he is for the Gospel of Jesus, Godspeed.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

Exactly and I totally agree with you.
‘This is why I don’t confuse the Christian religion of men who have committed atrocities throughout history with God.
‘Because Jesus when He was here told us some very different messages and how to live our lives which is contrary to control, manipulation and war.

Following up on something you alluded to (man's often violent action in the name of Christ), I'm sometimes unsure about what action would be considered appropriate to take in - eg - time of conflict.
My basic belief is that Jesus espoused pacifism - even laying down ones life rather than fighting back. Jesus obviously did that, as it seems did his disciples. The one time that comes to mind when this was not the case - Peter's attack on the soldier near Gethsemane - led to Jesus' rebuke "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword".
However, many people take a different stance. War, they say, is sometimes necessary. I see the need not to be walked over, but I can't square this with Jesus' stance on non-violence. For example the crusades in the circa 11th century against non-Christians seems a totally non-Christian event.
America seems very polemic in its "Christian" actions. A prominent Christian who seemed to generally promote a biblical stance on things was asked on TV whether a foreign policy following Chtrist's teachings responded something like "Hell no! We need someone who's gonna fight and destroy an aggressive enemy.".

 

[Eli1]

I saw a quick article on Wikipedia bout Sye and he seems like an …. Interesting guy.
Andrew, I don’t know if you’ve heard of William Lane Craig but I’d recommend him to you where you are in your journey.