Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?
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Yes.
Brother @Nehemiah6 did a pretty good job of explaining, but for the sake of redundance, we can rinse and repeat.
The Bride will be attending the wedding in Heaven before she returns to Earth with Jesus.
She returns to Earth with Jesus after the Tribulation. She was obviously not on Earth with those going through Tribulation if she has attended the Marriage and is now returning with Him...
Revelation 19
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Jude 1
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
The Rapture Event is described in Thessalonians...
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Brother @Nehemiah6 did a pretty good job of explaining, but for the sake of redundance, we can rinse and repeat.
The Bride will be attending the wedding in Heaven before she returns to Earth with Jesus.
She returns to Earth with Jesus after the Tribulation. She was obviously not on Earth with those going through Tribulation if she has attended the Marriage and is now returning with Him...
Revelation 19
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Jude 1
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
The Rapture Event is described in Thessalonians...
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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yeah I hadn’t been discussing with Nehemiah I was responding to your comment to me nd wondering what I’m the Bible made you think that
that’s usually how you and I communicate with each other
where is this guy ? And how did he get there ?
“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:43
was he let of a secret rapture ? Or did he die having faith in Christ and his kingdom ? do you think he died in the flesh and his spirit was taken to Jesus ? We know where Jesus is And we k is the thief on e cross is with him but was he raptured ? Or did this happen did his spirit part from his flesh ?
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 KJV
when a believer passes away they then are taken into the heavenly kingdom and when Christs returns he will
BRing them with him those I haven’t yet died but believe that same moment this will happen
“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; ( you have to part the flesh like the thief did ) neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
1 Corinthians 15:50-52
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep ( those who had passed away believing in him like the thief did ) in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. ( those who had already passed away from the flesh )
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 KJV
you see the thief when he died his spiritual body went to be with Jesus in heaven , that’s where any believer goes when thier body dies they become absent from the flesh and present by spirit with God
tribulation is let of existing in this world and merging we must endure nd keep faith through that’s why Jesus was telling them “ you are going to go through all Of these things I’m warning you about but keep faith and stay strong until it’s over and you’ll be saved “
“confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
Acts 14:22 KJV
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”
2 Timothy 3:12 KJV
if we are a worldly person the world will
Embrace us if we are Christian the world is not going to be kind To us tribulation is just part of human life if we are following after the gospel the world isn’t going to be kind and we aren’t going to be very popular with the world
it’s our spirit that’s taken into heaven not our body of flesh the way people enter into heaven is when they live and believe in Jesus d then hold on to that faith till they pass away they then go to be with the lord in heaven until the day he returns
those of that last generation who are alive the day of his return on earth will be taken from thier body and translated into spiritual beings and will be caug by up to Jesus and the rest in the air while the earth is destroyed with fire and vengeance from the lord just as he takes them up and has already gathered those in heaven then
“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-
Of your talking about a man’s spirit bekng “ raptured “from his body at death I could see it but the fact is Jesus promised his disciples they would have to endure much tribulation in the world but if they kept faith they would receive the rewards of his eternal Kingdom that comes after this world
that’s usually how you and I communicate with each other
where is this guy ? And how did he get there ?
“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Luke 23:43
was he let of a secret rapture ? Or did he die having faith in Christ and his kingdom ? do you think he died in the flesh and his spirit was taken to Jesus ? We know where Jesus is And we k is the thief on e cross is with him but was he raptured ? Or did this happen did his spirit part from his flesh ?
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
2 Corinthians 5:6, 8 KJV
when a believer passes away they then are taken into the heavenly kingdom and when Christs returns he will
BRing them with him those I haven’t yet died but believe that same moment this will happen
“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; ( you have to part the flesh like the thief did ) neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
1 Corinthians 15:50-52
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep ( those who had passed away believing in him like the thief did ) in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. ( those who had already passed away from the flesh )
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 KJV
you see the thief when he died his spiritual body went to be with Jesus in heaven , that’s where any believer goes when thier body dies they become absent from the flesh and present by spirit with God
tribulation is let of existing in this world and merging we must endure nd keep faith through that’s why Jesus was telling them “ you are going to go through all Of these things I’m warning you about but keep faith and stay strong until it’s over and you’ll be saved “
“confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
Acts 14:22 KJV
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”
2 Timothy 3:12 KJV
if we are a worldly person the world will
Embrace us if we are Christian the world is not going to be kind To us tribulation is just part of human life if we are following after the gospel the world isn’t going to be kind and we aren’t going to be very popular with the world
it’s our spirit that’s taken into heaven not our body of flesh the way people enter into heaven is when they live and believe in Jesus d then hold on to that faith till they pass away they then go to be with the lord in heaven until the day he returns
those of that last generation who are alive the day of his return on earth will be taken from thier body and translated into spiritual beings and will be caug by up to Jesus and the rest in the air while the earth is destroyed with fire and vengeance from the lord just as he takes them up and has already gathered those in heaven then
“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-
Of your talking about a man’s spirit bekng “ raptured “from his body at death I could see it but the fact is Jesus promised his disciples they would have to endure much tribulation in the world but if they kept faith they would receive the rewards of his eternal Kingdom that comes after this world
...and they did, and so are many others at this very moment.
Amen.
We endure because we have that glorious hope within us. The promise of the pre-trib Rapture is a part of that glorious hope (which is actually a glorious knowing.)
1 Thessalonians 4:18
“Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
Amen.
We endure because we have that glorious hope within us. The promise of the pre-trib Rapture is a part of that glorious hope (which is actually a glorious knowing.)
1 Thessalonians 4:18
“Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
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1 Thess. ch.5.1-5.
But of the times and the seasons brethren ye have no need that I write unto you
for yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night
for when they shall say peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape.
But ye brethren are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief Ye are all children of light and the children of the day. we are not of the night nor of darkness.
So we see it is not for the church that He comes as a thief [as pre-trib teaches] but to the world.
But of the times and the seasons brethren ye have no need that I write unto you
for yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night
for when they shall say peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape.
But ye brethren are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief Ye are all children of light and the children of the day. we are not of the night nor of darkness.
So we see it is not for the church that He comes as a thief [as pre-trib teaches] but to the world.
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aren't you one of them pesky pre-tribbers?
The promise of the pre-trib Rapture is a part of that glorious hope (which is actually a glorious knowing.)
what promise of a pre trib rapture brother ? That’s what I’m asking which scriptures promise the opposite of what Jesus promised
“that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:”
Hebrews 6:18 KJV
what I’m saying is Jesus said to them “ you will go through all these things but I’m telling you before so you keep faith while you endure keep strong y til it’s over and youll Be saved “
“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Matthew 24:8-13 KJV
he’s preparing disciples to endure tribulations not promising to rapture then do they don’t go through it and not lose faith because of it
“Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. ( everyone will see it )
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:23-31 KJV
mark of course adds e detail some are gathered ( those still alive ) from the earth and others were being gathered from heaven ( those who had died and left thoer dead body behind and are present in heaven with the lord )
God is t a respect or of persons what is true for any man in Christ is the same for every man in him what I’m asking is what scriptures make you think there’s a rapture before all Jesus is explaining they will go through and need to keep faith until it’s over ?
It’s really clear that tribulation is part of living in this world and would last until the end of the world when Jesus returns to gather his elect not before the tribulation but after it concludes
I guess the part I’m missing is e scriptures that establish that there’s a certain group of believers who are going to magically disappear before tv y have to go through tribulation the “ pre tribulation rapture “ I do t see it so I’m asking where is that established as Christs promise ?
I’m open to anything but if it’s not established in scripture then I have issues with believing it it’s why I was I quoting I’m always respectful of what you have to say because Ive learned a lot in discussing with you
so I’m wondering what I’m scripture has convinced you of a pre tribulation rapture ? Ot seems to me it’s always established to be the gathering of his people after the tribulation concludes
but think of the last two thousand years , what about all those Christians ? Y we’re they never raptured with all of the terrible tribulations they went through from 67 ad forward ? Through romes rule of state sponsored persecution of Christian’s fornthier faith ? The execution of the apostles by Nero and Titus , the siege of rome upon Jerusalem burning it by the ground and destroying the city exiling the Jews that survived the slaughter Through the dark ages through the Roman Catholic wars through the reformation through the Spanish Inquisition and the wars with Islam ?
tribulation is a perpetual thing in the world in the actual end it’s going to be just another normal day on the world not a mass tribulation but the ongoing tribulation even today with Christian’s imprisoned and killed daily in the world just like it described
“If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep your's also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.”
John 15:19-
“They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.”
John 16:2-4
see Jesus knew tribulation was coming and they would suffer through it he was giving them faith to keep strong when it happened so they didn’t think “ Jesus promised to save us and now we’re being slaughtered and persecuted “
he isn’t promising to keep them from the tribulation but preparing them to keep faith when and if they offer in it to not lose faith in him even though they are going through a great test of faith in suffering and tribulation
After Jesus was taken into heaven have you noticed how everyone started killing and persecuting the Christian’s ? It’s just part of the journey home the world rejected Jesus it tormented and tortured and killed him and those who are in him should t expect that they won’t be treated the same but jesusnis saying when it happens remember I told you ahead of time you’ll understand not to lose faith even though it’s hard
I don’t think I can find anything saying we’re going to be raptured in som other way than what he says out the day of his return after the tribulation concludes
But for like I was saying the thief who suffered and died his spirit is with Christ in the kk from I believe in that way he is raptured but it came after his suffering and death he died proclaiming faith in Jesus and the kingdom but was never delivered from earthly trials he endured and still believed
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24, 27 KJV
Paul is assuring the Christian’s that those who had already died are with Jesus already on heaven not to worry about them he will bring them back with him and then whoever is in that last generation that believes will be gathered from earth also together with those who went before and Jesus and all wil Be gethered that day in the air those on earth and those already on heaven but the “pre tribulation “ part is what I’m not seeing I’ve heard a lot of people claim it but not scripture
I was hoping you could share what scripture has you thinking it
what promise of a pre trib rapture brother ? That’s what I’m asking which scriptures promise the opposite of what Jesus promised
“that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:”
Hebrews 6:18 KJV
what I’m saying is Jesus said to them “ you will go through all these things but I’m telling you before so you keep faith while you endure keep strong y til it’s over and youll Be saved “
“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Matthew 24:8-13 KJV
he’s preparing disciples to endure tribulations not promising to rapture then do they don’t go through it and not lose faith because of it
“Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. ( everyone will see it )
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:23-31 KJV
mark of course adds e detail some are gathered ( those still alive ) from the earth and others were being gathered from heaven ( those who had died and left thoer dead body behind and are present in heaven with the lord )
God is t a respect or of persons what is true for any man in Christ is the same for every man in him what I’m asking is what scriptures make you think there’s a rapture before all Jesus is explaining they will go through and need to keep faith until it’s over ?
It’s really clear that tribulation is part of living in this world and would last until the end of the world when Jesus returns to gather his elect not before the tribulation but after it concludes
I guess the part I’m missing is e scriptures that establish that there’s a certain group of believers who are going to magically disappear before tv y have to go through tribulation the “ pre tribulation rapture “ I do t see it so I’m asking where is that established as Christs promise ?
I’m open to anything but if it’s not established in scripture then I have issues with believing it it’s why I was I quoting I’m always respectful of what you have to say because Ive learned a lot in discussing with you
so I’m wondering what I’m scripture has convinced you of a pre tribulation rapture ? Ot seems to me it’s always established to be the gathering of his people after the tribulation concludes
but think of the last two thousand years , what about all those Christians ? Y we’re they never raptured with all of the terrible tribulations they went through from 67 ad forward ? Through romes rule of state sponsored persecution of Christian’s fornthier faith ? The execution of the apostles by Nero and Titus , the siege of rome upon Jerusalem burning it by the ground and destroying the city exiling the Jews that survived the slaughter Through the dark ages through the Roman Catholic wars through the reformation through the Spanish Inquisition and the wars with Islam ?
tribulation is a perpetual thing in the world in the actual end it’s going to be just another normal day on the world not a mass tribulation but the ongoing tribulation even today with Christian’s imprisoned and killed daily in the world just like it described
“If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep your's also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.”
John 15:19-
“They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.”
John 16:2-4
see Jesus knew tribulation was coming and they would suffer through it he was giving them faith to keep strong when it happened so they didn’t think “ Jesus promised to save us and now we’re being slaughtered and persecuted “
he isn’t promising to keep them from the tribulation but preparing them to keep faith when and if they offer in it to not lose faith in him even though they are going through a great test of faith in suffering and tribulation
After Jesus was taken into heaven have you noticed how everyone started killing and persecuting the Christian’s ? It’s just part of the journey home the world rejected Jesus it tormented and tortured and killed him and those who are in him should t expect that they won’t be treated the same but jesusnis saying when it happens remember I told you ahead of time you’ll understand not to lose faith even though it’s hard
I don’t think I can find anything saying we’re going to be raptured in som other way than what he says out the day of his return after the tribulation concludes
But for like I was saying the thief who suffered and died his spirit is with Christ in the kk from I believe in that way he is raptured but it came after his suffering and death he died proclaiming faith in Jesus and the kingdom but was never delivered from earthly trials he endured and still believed
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24, 27 KJV
Paul is assuring the Christian’s that those who had already died are with Jesus already on heaven not to worry about them he will bring them back with him and then whoever is in that last generation that believes will be gathered from earth also together with those who went before and Jesus and all wil Be gethered that day in the air those on earth and those already on heaven but the “pre tribulation “ part is what I’m not seeing I’ve heard a lot of people claim it but not scripture
I was hoping you could share what scripture has you thinking it
definately not these living
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
John 11:25-26 KJV
“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:51-53 KJV
“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body,
and there is a spiritual body.”
1 Corinthians 15:35, 44 KJV
Christ has offered deliverance from death the dead in Christ are those waiting to be judged because they rejected his word rather than accepting the word of life
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.( v those who accept his word and live on chapter 5:24, 8: 51, 11:25-26 above three examples contrasted with those who reject his words )
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
what I’m saying is the dead in Christ arent those who accept his gift of everlasting life , not those who hear his word and have passed from death to life , or those who live and believe and never die “ but those who have fallen asleep in him and have to wait until the last resurrection and face those same words we can accept now and have life be delivered from the death of flesh and k to the life of the spirit
our spirit is t going into death if we believe it has no claim on us Jesus does
“The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
John 10:10 KJV
“And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
John 5:40
When Jesus went into death he took its authority over believers away now he can deliver us from deaths grasp when our flesh ends
“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
Revelation 1:18
we’re already delivered into his authority not deaths which was before he died and destroyed it and took the keys and freed us we don’t have to fear death anymore he went into death and broke its chains upon man and opened the doors
“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”
Hebrews 2:14-15 KJV
free to live in Christ and death cannot touch us it can only set our spirit free from the flesh
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
John 11:25-26 KJV
“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:51-53 KJV
“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body,
and there is a spiritual body.”
1 Corinthians 15:35, 44 KJV
Christ has offered deliverance from death the dead in Christ are those waiting to be judged because they rejected his word rather than accepting the word of life
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.( v those who accept his word and live on chapter 5:24, 8: 51, 11:25-26 above three examples contrasted with those who reject his words )
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
what I’m saying is the dead in Christ arent those who accept his gift of everlasting life , not those who hear his word and have passed from death to life , or those who live and believe and never die “ but those who have fallen asleep in him and have to wait until the last resurrection and face those same words we can accept now and have life be delivered from the death of flesh and k to the life of the spirit
our spirit is t going into death if we believe it has no claim on us Jesus does
“The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
John 10:10 KJV
“And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
John 5:40
When Jesus went into death he took its authority over believers away now he can deliver us from deaths grasp when our flesh ends
“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
Revelation 1:18
we’re already delivered into his authority not deaths which was before he died and destroyed it and took the keys and freed us we don’t have to fear death anymore he went into death and broke its chains upon man and opened the doors
“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”
Hebrews 2:14-15 KJV
free to live in Christ and death cannot touch us it can only set our spirit free from the flesh
I'm not disagreeing with your statement here, but how is that consistent with your pre-trib stance? Revelation 20 sets the 'first resurrection' toward the end of the book of Revelation, after those chapters about the beast rising up and such.
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(NKJV)
Uh-oh. Revelation uses the 'thief' comment after the sixth bowl of wrath, again toward the end of the book. What evidence is there in the Bible... at all... for Jesus coming back again and again after His ascension? The Bible talks about the parousia, the return of Christ. I can't see anywhere where it teaches that this will happen over and over.
Revelation 16
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. (NKJV)
Ummm, no that is not obvious. Is that your whole reason for inventing a whole 'nother return of Christ? The word for 'coming' is parousia, and the word was used for official visits from government officials. A dignitary would come to a city, and the people of the city would go out to meet him, then return to the city with him.
So just imagine this. There is the sound of a trumpet. Christ comes down to the clouds. The saints meet Him to the air as He returns. The word is 'parousia', after all. Look in Acts 1. The men who the apostles saw at the ascension said that Jesus would return the way He went up, after He went behind the cloud. When Jesus ascended, did He go to the clouds, come back down, wait seven years, then go up again?
You offered no evidence. You just asserted it. I see that with pre-trib teachers all the time. They take a passage that does not teach pre-trib, and may even contradict it, assume pre-trib, and then try to interpret the passage around it. Why doesn't Matthew 24 mention a rapture before the tribulation? Why doesn't the book of Revelation? Why is it that none of the scriptures that lay out a sequence of events mention a rapture before the tribulation? Then pre-tribbers will take one verse about the parousia, and make it about this pretrib rapture thing, but then use another verse to say that is a later second coming.
Have you actually read the passage about the marriage supper of the Lamb and considered whether it offers a shred of evidence for a pre-trib rapture? It shows up right before the scene of the King of Kings on the white horse, which premils often take as a passage about the second coming. Where is there any evidence at all of it happening in heaven. I will post this section of scripture from Revelation 19 to give some context. Notice the two references to supper, which I will post as large text.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
(NKJV)
Look, I understand the appeal of pre-trib. It's just more comfortable to believe that we do not have to go through suffering and difficulty, even though believers around the world suffer and believers throughout history have suffered. But for Americans and British in nice comfortable nations, the idea of not having to suffer has it's appeal.
I also get if you come from a church you have a connection to, and you really feel like your church has the right doctrine, and if they taught you pre-trib, and you have read books, you might be emotionally invested.
But if there is no evidence for it in scripture, and the only way to teach pre-trib is just to assume it, read it into the text, and make some passages about the parousia be about one coming of Christ and other verses about another, then why be pre-trib? I was taught pre-trib and believed it. Then I realized I couldn't find a passage that taught it. Then I realized it pretty much contradicted passages like II Thessalonians 1. And dispensational pretrib was invented in the 1800's. So why believe in it?
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(NKJV)
Uh-oh. Revelation uses the 'thief' comment after the sixth bowl of wrath, again toward the end of the book. What evidence is there in the Bible... at all... for Jesus coming back again and again after His ascension? The Bible talks about the parousia, the return of Christ. I can't see anywhere where it teaches that this will happen over and over.
Revelation 16
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. (NKJV)
Ummm, no that is not obvious. Is that your whole reason for inventing a whole 'nother return of Christ? The word for 'coming' is parousia, and the word was used for official visits from government officials. A dignitary would come to a city, and the people of the city would go out to meet him, then return to the city with him.
So just imagine this. There is the sound of a trumpet. Christ comes down to the clouds. The saints meet Him to the air as He returns. The word is 'parousia', after all. Look in Acts 1. The men who the apostles saw at the ascension said that Jesus would return the way He went up, after He went behind the cloud. When Jesus ascended, did He go to the clouds, come back down, wait seven years, then go up again?
You offered no evidence. You just asserted it. I see that with pre-trib teachers all the time. They take a passage that does not teach pre-trib, and may even contradict it, assume pre-trib, and then try to interpret the passage around it. Why doesn't Matthew 24 mention a rapture before the tribulation? Why doesn't the book of Revelation? Why is it that none of the scriptures that lay out a sequence of events mention a rapture before the tribulation? Then pre-tribbers will take one verse about the parousia, and make it about this pretrib rapture thing, but then use another verse to say that is a later second coming.
Have you actually read the passage about the marriage supper of the Lamb and considered whether it offers a shred of evidence for a pre-trib rapture? It shows up right before the scene of the King of Kings on the white horse, which premils often take as a passage about the second coming. Where is there any evidence at all of it happening in heaven. I will post this section of scripture from Revelation 19 to give some context. Notice the two references to supper, which I will post as large text.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
(NKJV)
Look, I understand the appeal of pre-trib. It's just more comfortable to believe that we do not have to go through suffering and difficulty, even though believers around the world suffer and believers throughout history have suffered. But for Americans and British in nice comfortable nations, the idea of not having to suffer has it's appeal.
I also get if you come from a church you have a connection to, and you really feel like your church has the right doctrine, and if they taught you pre-trib, and you have read books, you might be emotionally invested.
But if there is no evidence for it in scripture, and the only way to teach pre-trib is just to assume it, read it into the text, and make some passages about the parousia be about one coming of Christ and other verses about another, then why be pre-trib? I was taught pre-trib and believed it. Then I realized I couldn't find a passage that taught it. Then I realized it pretty much contradicted passages like II Thessalonians 1. And dispensational pretrib was invented in the 1800's. So why believe in it?
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There is NO such doctrine revealed in Scriptures!
It is a destructive heresy put into the Body of Christ by the Devil through "dupes" taking a few Scriptures out of context and twisting them to suit their own perverted ideas!
There is only one doctrine (the SECOND Coming (not a third)) that comes from the Scriptures (Gen 1v1 - Rev 22v21) and that is a POST-tribulation advent and rapture in glory! Matt 24v29-31
Indeed, the Lord Jesus taught against a secret pre-tribulation advent and rapture saying that only false prophet and teachers taught such. Matt 24v23-27
It is a destructive heresy put into the Body of Christ by the Devil through "dupes" taking a few Scriptures out of context and twisting them to suit their own perverted ideas!
There is only one doctrine (the SECOND Coming (not a third)) that comes from the Scriptures (Gen 1v1 - Rev 22v21) and that is a POST-tribulation advent and rapture in glory! Matt 24v29-31
Indeed, the Lord Jesus taught against a secret pre-tribulation advent and rapture saying that only false prophet and teachers taught such. Matt 24v23-27
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Once we understand that the first resurrection is similar to a Hebrew harvest, we will note that it is in three phases according to 1 Corinthians 15:23,24:
But every man in his own order: [1] Christ the firstfruits; afterward [2] they that are Christ's at his coming. [3] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
In terms of a harvest we have this:
THE FIRST FRUITS = the resurrection of Christ
THE MAIN HARVEST = the resurrection of the saints at the Resurrection/Rapture
THE GLEANINGS = the Tribulation saints mentioned in Revelation 20
"Then cometh the end" corresponds to the events in Revelation 20 and 21.
But every man in his own order: [1] Christ the firstfruits; afterward [2] they that are Christ's at his coming. [3] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
In terms of a harvest we have this:
THE FIRST FRUITS = the resurrection of Christ
THE MAIN HARVEST = the resurrection of the saints at the Resurrection/Rapture
THE GLEANINGS = the Tribulation saints mentioned in Revelation 20
"Then cometh the end" corresponds to the events in Revelation 20 and 21.
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The Day of the Lord will not overcome watchful Christians as a Thief, but only unbelievers or unprepared Christians.
1 Thess 5:
4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night; and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.
God Bless.
1 Thess 5:
4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night; and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.
God Bless.
Even if you had some kind of Biblical evidence for pre-trib, this is a pretty odd and weak argument you are making from this scripture. The scripture shows two stages of harvest-- Christ the firstfruitst then they that are Christ's at His coming. Then cometh the end-- after these two stages of harvest. There is no reason to think that 'the end' refers to a third harvest?
And how does that first with pre-trib anyway? Christ rules and reigns for 1000 years after 'they that are Christ's at His coming.'
Do you have any Biblical evidence for pre-trib.... not some scripture that you could try to fit into a pre-trib scenario like you are doing with this one?
And how does that first with pre-trib anyway? Christ rules and reigns for 1000 years after 'they that are Christ's at His coming.'
Do you have any Biblical evidence for pre-trib.... not some scripture that you could try to fit into a pre-trib scenario like you are doing with this one?
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I don't believe in pre-trib, but I have noticed pre-tribbers applying the thief in the night to their idea of a first second coming and not to the second second coming. Nehemiah did that. I wanted to post, then point out the reference to Jesus coming as a theif in Revelation 16, after the rapture was supposed to take place in their scenario.
Even though if you read Revelation, a pre-trib rapture is noticeably absent where you might expect it if it were true like around chapter 3 or 4. Just like it is absent in Matthew 24 and II Thessalonians 2.
Even though if you read Revelation, a pre-trib rapture is noticeably absent where you might expect it if it were true like around chapter 3 or 4. Just like it is absent in Matthew 24 and II Thessalonians 2.
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I agree Rapture is not Pre-Trib. You read 1 Thess 4, and Rapture is very clearly POST-TRIB and even Post-Resurrection of the saints. It is also not a hidden or secret, but a public and visible one, accompanied by a Loud Trumpet of Archangels.
1 Thess 4:
"15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
God Bless.
1 Thess 4:
"15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
God Bless.
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