Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 260 renders us a familiar concept, which is that God has the Power to “stir” the hearts of people against others or to do specific things . . . including the “stirring” to say particular things. Ezra 1:1-7 is a recounting of what was predicted and promised in 2 Chron 36:22. It reads as follows:

Ezra 1:1-7 NLT – “In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, the LORD fulfilled the prophecy he had given through Jeremiah. He stirred the heart of Cyrus to put this proclamation in writing and to send it throughout his kingdom: “This is what King Cyrus of Persia says: “The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth. He has appointed me to build him a Temple at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Any of you who are his people may go to Jerusalem in Judah to rebuild this Temple of the LORD, the God of Israel, who lives in Jerusalem. And may your God be with you! Wherever this Jewish remnant is found, let their neighbors contribute toward their expenses by giving them silver and gold, supplies for the journey, and livestock, as well as a voluntary offering for the Temple of God in Jerusalem.” Then God stirred the hearts of the priests and Levites and the leaders of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin to go to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple of the LORD. And all their neighbors assisted by giving them articles of silver and gold, supplies for the journey, and livestock. They gave them many valuable gifts in addition to all the voluntary offerings. King Cyrus himself brought out the articles that King Nebuchadnezzar had taken from the LORD’s Temple in Jerusalem and had placed in the temple of his own gods.”

Literally, the enemy of God will actually build His temple for Him. The grace being applied to Judah and Israel is increasing, for their enemies are serving them, aiding them with the gifts of silver and gold, goods, and livestock.

In the previous Days of the timeline, chronological reading plan, we have discovered two earlier examples of such “stirring.” They are as follows:

Day 107 - 1 Samuel 26:19 NKJV - “Now therefore, please, let my lord the king hear the words of his servant: If the LORD has stirred you up against me, let Him accept an offering. But if [it is] the children of men, [may] they [be] cursed before the LORD, for they have driven me out this day from sharing in the inheritance of the LORD, saying, ‘Go, serve other gods.”

Day 231 - 2 Chronicles 36:22 NKJV – “Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also [put it] in writing, saying . . .”

Quickly, the underlined phrase "so that" indicates purpose; the reason for which God "stirred" the heart of the king. The purpose is to accomplish a specific objective that would not otherwise take place if the "stirring" had not been enforced.

The language and principles are the same: if the Lord had not accessed the heart of king Cyrus or others, the king and “others” would not think nor act otherwise. These Scriptures make it clear that God takes full responsibility for the actions (and thoughts) of king Cyrus and the others whose hearts the Lord has caused to think and behave as reported.

The question is . . . who is in control? Are “you” the reader in control? Or is the Lord in control?

If the Lord is in control, the concept of “free will” is placed in immediate danger for its validity.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 261 of the timeline, chronological reading plan issues a most remarkable act of the Lord. What does He do? He causes the king’s heart of Assyria to be “favorable” towards Israel and the rebuilding of their temple. Think about it: In the Scripture below, who decides that the king of Assyria would be kind and express favor to Israel? Who takes responsibility for the king’s thoughts and actions toward Israel? Scripture clearly points to our Lord taking responsibility.

Ezra 6:22 NLT – “Then they celebrated the Festival of Unleavened Bread for seven days. There was great joy throughout the land because the LORD had caused the king of Assyria to be favorable to them, so that he helped them to rebuild the Temple of God, the God of Israel.”

If “free will” is the right to choose between at least two options, did the king have the capacity to decide to be unfavorable toward Israel, even though the Lord predisposed the king’s heart to do so? And to demonstrate the Power of God in how he caused the king to view Israel, Ezra 6:9-11 states the following:

NLT - “Give the priests in Jerusalem whatever is needed in the way of young bulls, rams, and male lambs for the burnt offerings presented to the God of heaven. And without fail, provide them with as much wheat, salt, wine, and olive oil as they need each day. Then they will be able to offer acceptable sacrifices to the God of heaven and pray for the welfare of the king and his sons. “Those who violate this decree in any way will have a beam pulled from their house. Then they will be tied to it and flogged, and their house will be reduced to a pile of rubble.”

The king of Assyria preferred to help the Israelites rebuild their temple and provide them with virtually anything they needed for a full and healthy life. It was warned that the punishment would be devastating if anyone did not comply with assisting any Israelite in the ways mentioned above. Friends, this is about Power. It is as if the Lord is saying, “Look at me. Know me. Consider all that I can do, including the causing of this enemy of Israel to be favorable toward them . . . I can cause a king to favor my Chosen people and consider them more important than his own. Who else can perform such a thing?”

There may be a limited sense of “free will” within the mind of a human, but in the story above, “free will” is not at all involved. Instead, it is but another incredible example of the complete and total mind control of the Lord.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 264 of the timeline, chronological order delivers in a mighty fashion in terms of negating the “free will” concept, at least within the partial story below. This story still involves the building of the Holy Temple and reads as follows:

Zechariah 8:9-10 NLT - “This is what the LORD of Heaven’s Armies says: Be strong and finish the task! Ever since the laying of the foundation of the Temple of the LORD of Heaven’s Armies, you have heard what the prophets have been saying about completing the building. Before the work on the Temple began, there were no jobs and no money to hire people or animals. No traveler was safe from the enemy, for there were enemies on all sides. I had turned everyone against each other.”

It doesn’t matter which Bible translation is used; the message is clear that the Power of God is responsible for the following quote: “everyone against each other.” There is no escaping the fact that God is in control of the enemies of Israel and their thoughts toward Israel. And how many are impacted by this Holy Mind Control of the Lord? “Everyone.” Folks, as stated so many times before . . . this is a story that revolves around Power. The Lord wants us to know precisely how Powerful He is, for His Word plainly tells us that He is responsible for all of these happenings. If all of Scripture is God-Breathed, then God recorded this fact for us, which is that He alone has the ability to control the hearts, minds, thoughts, actions, and “decisions” that take place not only within humans but animals as well, including all inanimate creation (such as rocks that produce water).

So, whose choice was it to turn themselves against a potential “safe traveler”? Was this choice through the hearts of the enemy of Israel? Or was it the Lord who caused them to feel as they did toward the Blessed Jews?

Embedded within this remarkable story are even more descriptions of what He, the Lord, will powerfully execute in the future. God is about to reverse the negative feelings and emotions surrounding Israel and make this small Nation one of a Blessing (from the viewpoint of those very same enemies). God is about to turn Israel into a Nation that is to be admired. This is the Power of God, for only God has the ability to perform such incredible work.

Zechariah 8:13 NLT – “Among the other nations, Judah and Israel became symbols of a cursed nation. But no longer! Now I will rescue you and make you both a symbol and a source of blessing. So don’t be afraid. Be strong, and get on with rebuilding the Temple!”

The only way for the Lord to “rescue” an Entire Nation is by being in complete and total control over the situation, including the minds of those involved. If this is True, and we know that it is, of what use would “free will” be even if we held it? If the Lord has the Power to cause the entire world to hate Israel, and if He has the Power to force the world to view Israel as a Blessing, how could the “free will” concept apply? Of what use would it be?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 265 of the timeline, Chronological reading plan thrusts another incredible demonstration of the Lord's Almighty Power upon us. Zechariah 12:4 reads as follows:

NLT - "On that day," says the LORD, "I will cause every horse to panic and every rider to lose his nerve. I will watch over the people of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of their enemies."

This is odd. Day 243, just 22 Days earlier from where we are currently at (along the timeline reading plan), shows us a completely different type of enemy to Israel . . . a confident and robust enemy:

Ezekiel 23:23-25 NKJV – "The Babylonians, All the Chaldeans, Pekod, Shoa, Koa, All the Assyrians with them, All of them desirable young men, Governors and rulers, Captains and men of renown, All of them riding on horses. And they shall come against you With chariots, wagons, and war-horses, With a horde of people. They shall array against you Buckler, shield, and helmet all around. 'I will delegate judgment to them, And they shall judge you according to their judgments. I will set My jealousy against you, And they shall deal furiously with you; They shall remove your nose and your ears, And your remnant shall fall by the sword; They shall take your sons and your daughters, And your remnant shall be devoured by fire."

Israel has always been the smallest of Nations . . . which is the primary tools for which the Lord expresses His Power to the world. I have provided Biblical stories where the Lord influences the minds of Kings to be stirred both against and for Israel. Here, in Zechariah chapter 12, this story is no different. This time, however, instead of God empowering the enemy of Israel, the Lord will disempower them. How will the Lord accomplish this feat even though Israel is the smallest of Nations? First, the Lord will create Jerusalem, the city which harbored the Blessed Jews, to become an "immovable rock." "All" of the Nations will try to destroy it but will be unable. How do the smallest and weakest of Nations protect and defend themselves as they face "the world." The answer is simple, look at Zechariah 12:1-4:

Zechariah 12:1-4 NLT – "This message concerning the fate of Israel came from the LORD: "This message is from the LORD, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundations of the earth, and formed the human spirit. I will make Jerusalem like an intoxicating drink that makes the nearby nations stagger when they send their armies to besiege Jerusalem and Judah. On that day I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock. All the nations will gather against it to try to move it, but they will only hurt themselves. "On that day," says the LORD, "I will cause every horse to panic and every rider to lose his nerve. I will watch over the people of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of their enemies."

First, did you note the Power of God described above? This is not accidental but recorded with purpose and intention. He "stretched out the heavens, laid the foundations, and formed the human spirit." The Lord is not shy to remind us of who He is. The Lord is constantly reminding us of what He [can] do and what we [cannot] do. The Lord continually reminds us exactly who He is and what He can do. He constantly reminds us of our position with and underneath Him.

So in the current story, what are the actions of the Lord? Hailstones? Burning Sulphur falling from the sky? Hoards of creatures consuming the land? Does the Lord cause the ground to open up and swallow thousands? No, the Lord seems clear in how He causes the enemies of the Vine of Christ to perish. The Lord is clear in what He does to these enemies and how, for these are His opportunities to express His unique and Supreme Power over all possible matters.

NLT - "On that day," says the LORD, "I will cause every horse to panic and every rider to lose his nerve. I will watch over the people of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of their enemies."

The Lord refutes the enemies of Israel very simply . . . He instilled panic into the mind of each horse, and the Lord instilled fear into the minds of the world's overpowering, all-consuming armies. How does the Lord cause panic? He takes biological control over the horses and causes physical blindness. The Lord is in such supreme control that He can physically impact each horse identified as related to the enemy of Jerusalem. In an instant, the Lord accesses their biology and changes them all so that physical blindness is applied. This level of awareness, Power, and control is shocking.

Every rider shall lose his nerve? Does this sound like the army described in Ezekiel above? These are the largest, most powerful armies, so why would these fighting men lose their nerve? The Lord accesses a person's mind to impose certain fears and anxieties. The Lord is so Powerful that not only can he control the biology of specific horses, but the Lord can influence that which is not physical . . . the human mind.

Where . . . is "free will" in all of this? I do not see "free will" in this story whatsoever. Instead, I see people behaving precisely as God expresses the responsibility for their doing so. That's right. Each time that God records (for us) in His Word that He causes things to happen, these are His moments when He is expressing His Sovereign Power of all creation . . . and especially us humans.

The Bible is filled with these stories, primarily in the Old Testament. Why? These stories show us what it means to be controlled by Satan or the Father, Son, and Spirit. We are controlled either by the Devil or by the spirit. There is no other option. No one is independent of a Spiritual Father. All people have one of two Spiritual Fathers, either Satan or God in Heaven.

Romans 8:9 NLT – "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 268 of the timeline, chronological reading plan renders a concept regarding “free will” that is undeniable. So, grab your favorite translation, and let’s find out how different it is from the Blessed Jewish Tanakh. How do the Blessed Jews translate the Holy Words from Ezra 7:27-28?

Tanakh: “Blessed is the Lord God of our fathers, who put it into the mind of the king to glorify the House of the Lord in Jerusalem, and who inclined the king and his counselors and the king’s military officers to be favorably disposed toward me. For me part, thanks to the care of the Lord for me, I summoned up courage and assembled leading men in Israel to go with me.”

For what does Ezra thank God? Two things:

• Causing the king to beautify the Temple of God.
• Causing the king, his counselors, and all of the king’s military officers to be “favorably disposed” toward him, Ezra.

Where is the “free will” concept in this story? Right . . . it doesn’t exist. So instead, what we find and see is the Lord literally taking control over the minds and actions of all parties involved.

Were king Artaxerxes, his counselors, and the many military officers granted a choice? Did the Lord offer a choice, or were these men, and perhaps some women, utterly controlled by God to think, act, and speak in a way that would render all things good for Ezra?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Were king Artaxerxes, his counselors, and the many military officers granted a choice? Did the Lord offer a choice, or were these men, and perhaps some women, utterly controlled by God to think, act, and speak in a way that would render all things good for Ezra?

Why would these specific examples support the claim that man has no free will?

The only real issue is concerning salvation. And man does have a choice concerning the gospel.

The gospel is a promise of salvation through faith in Christ. People have a choice whether to believe the promise or not.

Some will never get to the choice because they previously chose not to believe that God exists. So further discussion is irrelevant to them. And even that is a choice.

Rom 1:19-21 says that God has revealed Himself and His attributes to everyone, so that no one has an excuse for not believing that He exists as Creator and being thankful to Him.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Genuine question...
If we are not under Gods will , then we are under Satan's will , so where does our free will sit ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Genuine question...
If we are not under Gods will , then we are under Satan's will , so where does our free will sit ?

The same place as where the prodigal son was sitting; in a pig sty. Where he "came to his senses". That is a choice.

Satan doesn't own anyone. He has to deceive people to get them to follow him. But those who come to their senses are freely able, just as the prodigal did, to stand up, get out of the pig sty and return to the Father.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Genuine question...
If we are not under Gods will , then we are under Satan's will , so where does our free will sit ?

You nailed it.

The "free will" concept actually denies Satan the alleged power that he is/was supposed to have over us. If a person has True "free will," then they are NOT held captive by the Devil. And as you say, if a person is not held captive by the Devil, that person is under the Holy Will of God, and what God Wills, it all comes to pass without alarm.

As much as I can see, Adam and Eve prior to sinning had True "free will." They were neither indwelt and led by the Holy Spirit, nor were they under the Curse of the Sinful Nature, the added Nature that "motors" sin. They were both uninfluenced via some type of Spiritual Fatherhood. But after the Fall, there is no more human independence from Spiritual Influence, whether our Spiritual Father is Christ or the Devil. There are no other options, including being independent of Christ AND the Devil. Impossible.

 

[Rosemaryx]

The same place as where the prodigal son was sitting; in a pig sty. Where he "came to his senses". That is a choice.

Satan doesn't own anyone. He has to deceive people to get them to follow him. But those who come to their senses are freely able, just as the prodigal did, to stand up, get out of the pig sty and return to the Father.

But are we not a slave to sin or a slave to Christ...
The prodigal was a slave to sin until he repented...

 

[FreeGrace2]

But are we not a slave to sin or a slave to Christ...
The prodigal was a slave to sin until he repented...

You are contradicting yourself if you understand "we" as believers or saved people. You say we (believers) are neither, then you say the prodigal was a slave to sin. But he was already a son in the parable, just like his brother.

So the parable isn't about an unsaved person becoming saved, as too many believers have been taught (incorrectly).

He was saved, he got way out of fellowship with his father, and then "came to his senses", confessed and repented and returned to his father, restoring fellowship with his father.

And Paul would disagree with you about whether believers are slaves or not.

Romans 6-
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

v.12 is a direct command to NOT be a slave to sin. Meaning that it is possible.
v.13 the black words refer to being a slave to sin. Red words refer to being a slave to God.
v.16 blue words refer to the fact that believers ARE slaves with 2 choices; to sin, or to obedience to God.

One or the other.

 

[Rosemaryx]

You are contradicting yourself if you understand "we" as believers or saved people. You say we (believers) are neither, then you say the prodigal was a slave to sin. But he was already a son in the parable, just like his brother.

So the parable isn't about an unsaved person becoming saved, as too many believers have been taught (incorrectly).

He was saved, he got way out of fellowship with his father, and then "came to his senses", confessed and repented and returned to his father, restoring fellowship with his father.

And Paul would disagree with you about whether believers are slaves or not.

Romans 6-
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

v.12 is a direct command to NOT be a slave to sin. Meaning that it is possible.
v.13 the black words refer to being a slave to sin. Red words refer to being a slave to God.
v.16 blue words refer to the fact that believers ARE slaves with 2 choices; to sin, or to obedience to God.

One or the other.

I agree , one or the other...
Believers are under Gods grace...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree , one or the other...
Believers are under Gods grace...

And choose to whom to obey as slaves. It's an on-going choice.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

You are contradicting yourself if you understand "we" as believers or saved people. You say we (believers) are neither, then you say the prodigal was a slave to sin. But he was already a son in the parable, just like his brother.

So the parable isn't about an unsaved person becoming saved, as too many believers have been taught (incorrectly).

He was saved, he got way out of fellowship with his father, and then "came to his senses", confessed and repented and returned to his father, restoring fellowship with his father.

And Paul would disagree with you about whether believers are slaves or not.

Romans 6-
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

v.12 is a direct command to NOT be a slave to sin. Meaning that it is possible.
v.13 the black words refer to being a slave to sin. Red words refer to being a slave to God.
v.16 blue words refer to the fact that believers ARE slaves with 2 choices; to sin, or to obedience to God.

One or the other.

I truly hope that one day the Lord will confirm to you that you do not understand His Holy Word, and that you would stop teaching others what the Bible says until you have done all that you can to thoroughly understand its core principles.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You are contradicting yourself if you understand "we" as believers or saved people. You say we (believers) are neither, then you say the prodigal was a slave to sin. But he was already a son in the parable, just like his brother.

So the parable isn't about an unsaved person becoming saved, as too many believers have been taught (incorrectly).

He was saved, he got way out of fellowship with his father, and then "came to his senses", confessed and repented and returned to his father, restoring fellowship with his father.

And Paul would disagree with you about whether believers are slaves or not.

Romans 6-
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

v.12 is a direct command to NOT be a slave to sin. Meaning that it is possible.
v.13 the black words refer to being a slave to sin. Red words refer to being a slave to God.
v.16 blue words refer to the fact that believers ARE slaves with 2 choices; to sin, or to obedience to God.

One or the other.

I truly hope that one day the Lord will confirm to you that you do not understand His Holy Word, and that you would stop teaching others what the Bible says until you have done all that you can to thoroughly understand its core principles.

Thank you for your opinion.

Now, if you would, please address what I "got wrong" in the parable of the prodigal and Romans 6.

Opinions are nice, but do nothing to move the discussion.

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

As I have read through the Bible several times, I have logged the many passages that clearly show that God caused people and groups of people to think, act, and speak against their own will. And while a person may not change their view once I have offered all passages collected, a new perspective will at least be offered (and undeniable if at least in specific circumstances).

Here is the first according to a chronological, timeline reading format:

Deuteronomy 2:25 NLT - "Beginning today I will make people throughout the earth terrified because of you. When they hear reports about you, they will tremble with dread and fear.'"

If the Lord is going to place fear of the Jews into the hearts and minds of all people on the earth . . . How is that fear of their own free will and choice?

To those of you who are adamant about our sense of free will, how does this passage make you feel? Is it right or wrong that God would strip the world of this right to view the Jews as they wish?

In the Word of God for those of us who speak English, Deuteronomy 2:25 is written thus: This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee. Amen, as it is written, I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

In the Word of God for those of us who speak English, Deuteronomy 2:25 is written thus: This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee. Amen, as it is written, I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

It's pretty simple: God is in control and we are not.

What is more, those who belong to Christ are controlled by the Spirit, so if a person states that they have "free will," they cannot be controlled by the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 NLT - "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

What are the two possible controlling forces above? Are either of them "self?" No, the only two options in this life in terms of who controls us are either Satan or Christ, depending upon whether or not you have received Christ's Colossians 2:11-15 Circumcision of the Heart.

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

 

[Pray_without_ceasing]

It's pretty simple: God is in control and we are not.

What is more, those who belong to Christ are controlled by the Spirit, so if a person states that they have "free will," they cannot be controlled by the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 NLT - "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

What are the two possible controlling forces above? Are either of them "self?" No, the only two options in this life in terms of who controls us are either Satan or Christ, depending upon whether or not you have received Christ's Colossians 2:11-15 Circumcision of the Heart.

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believe? As it is written, they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And unto what were you baptized?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's pretty simple: God is in control and we are not.

Simple question for you: when a believer (YOU) sins, who is in control in that?

What is more, those who belong to Christ are controlled by the Spirit, so if a person states that they have "free will," they cannot be controlled by the Spirit.

OK, please show from the Bible that believers are "controlled by the Spirit.

Eph 5:18 commands (the need to obey) believers to be "filled with the Spirit".
Gal 5:16 commands (the need to obey) believers to "walk by the means of the Spirit".

Eph 4:30 commands believers to NOT "grieve the Spirit".
1 Thess 5:19 commands believers to NOT "quench the Spirit".

Given these commands, how can you say that believers are "controlled by the Spirit". Yes, IF IF IF a believer is filled with the Spirit and walking by the Spirit, they ARE controlled by the Spirit.

But IF IF IF a believer is grieving or quenching the Spirit, they are NOT controlled by the Spirit.

So, now your assignment is to explain HOW to obey the commands to be filled and walk by means of the Spirit.

Can you do this?

If not, you have no idea what you are talking about.

And then you quote from a PARAPHRASE translation (lame)

Romans 8:9 NLT - "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"

New International Version
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
English Standard Version
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Berean Literal Bible
Now you are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you; but if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.
King James Bible
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
New American Standard Bible
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Christian Standard Bible
You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

Even the KJV got it right! There is NO mention of 'control' in the Greek, and these translations reflect that.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believe? As it is written, they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And unto what were you baptized?

I appreciate your questioning me, but we're going to stay on topic for this thread . . . "free will."