Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[DavidTree]

Hhhhmmm.......are these who you think constitute the 24 Elders of Rev 4 & 5? Or just plain old-fashioned Christians?

Where in the Scripture does it state that the 24 Elders are the Corporate Pre-Trib Raptured Church???

Please provide the Scripture that supports your (present unproven) claim.

 

[DavidTree]

You a

This is how I read your proof verses, which are also my proof verses... let me paraphrase

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the 7yrs of tribulation is happening right now.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for the 7yrs of tribulation and wrath shall not start, except there come a departure(rapture) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Thessalonians and Christians throughout the ages like us undergo various trials and tribulations and even today some make the assumption that we may actually be in the day of the Lord the seventieth week of Daniel which we know we are not.

And how do we know we are not, there are two reasons given to us that we may know this is not the case.

1. the departure comes first. the church has not been caught up to the clouds so the fact we have not departed yet means the week has not commenced yet.
2. The man of sin has not been revealed, the Antichrist will sign a peace treaty with Israel and this will mark the beginning of the week.

Of course all the post tribbers out there maybe rolling their eyes and saying the word departure means apostasia or some some word which means apostasy or falling away and its the departing from the faith that must happen first.

The problem I have in swallowing that pill, is that apostasy or false Christendom has always existed so it cannot be the point.
Secondly and thirdly if it means as the context indicates that all Christendom will depart or fall away from the faith it means we can lose our salvation, and what I find more strange is it will mean there is not one believer on earth as they will have left the faith when the seventieth week of Daniel begins. Funnily enough in a round about way its the same as the church departing in the rapture so I can understand why post tribbers over read into this.







As a non-pre-tribber you dont see more than one gathering of Gods people, which is fair enough I dont think the pharisees or even the disciples could see or understand the two comings of the Lord until after and the mystery which was also later explained in the epistles. If people dont see more than one gathering it leads to more problems from my point of view, like that would then mean its the goats entering the millennial kingdom not the sheep.

WARNING: You added to Gods words which will be judged severely = (departure = pretrib rapture)
and you added 7 Years Tribulation to 2 Thessalonians ch2


PLEASE read Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19

PLEASE continue to worship the LORD and FEAR GOD so as not to fall into Judgment

Peace

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In the above example, start with not denying that the phrase "after the tribulation of those days" [literally] means that whatever follows this statement is after the end of the 'tribulation' being referred to in the statement.

And, nothing anywhere in scripture is going to contradict that - or be in conflict with that - in the slightest.

"after the tribulation of those days" (v.29) refers to the "then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be" (v.21 and what all that entails);

my question to you (knowing your historicist viewpoint), what are you thinking my view is saying that is supposedly in conflict with what you are making a point about in that quote at top ^ ?

And, do you not agree that, verse 33's saying, "when ye see all these things, know that IT is near, even at the doors," the "IT" refers back to what vv.29-31 were just talking about, when "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with power and great glory" (and the thing about the angels "shall gather together his elect from the four winds," from the extremities--no place left out)--are you in agreement thus far?

I do realize that your "Historicist" viewpoint has you defining "great tribulation" as a "GREAT length of time" (spanning the first century clear to our own century and clear up until that point, whenever that will be), but in my viewpoint, "great tribulation" here refers to that which will take place after "the beginning of birth PANGS" (equivalent the seals of Rev6) which themselves are a part of the "in quickness" time-frame that John was going to be "SHOWN" from Rev4:1 and on (not the stuff before that, in chpts 2-3, "the things WHICH ARE")... and "great tribulation" only refers to the second half of that "future" specific, limited time period, not even its entirety.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

WARNING: You added to Gods words which will be judged severely = (departure = pretrib rapture)

That's not "ADDING," that is defining terms and explaining. Something pastors do from pulpits every Sunday, and I don't hear you threatening yours or anyone else's for doing that.

 

[cv5]

Where in the Scripture does it state that the 24 Elders are the Corporate Pre-Trib Raptured Church???

Please provide the Scripture that supports your (present unproven) claim.

Already proven bro. Robustly and indisputably. Its now up to you get off your duff and DISPROVE it.....

 

[DavidTree]

That's not "ADDING," that is defining and explaining. Something pastors do from pulpits every Sunday, and I don't hear you threatening yours or anyone else's for doing that.

Hello my Brother,

My statement in Post#542 applies to the following:
#1 myself
#2 everyone else
#3 myself

Peace

 

[DavidTree]

Already proven bro. Robustly and indisputably. Its now up to you get off your duff and DISPROVE it.....

You and a 100 million others have yet to come up with just one verse that shows the Prophets, the LORD and/or the Apostles saying
"Christ/Messiah will pre-trib rapture His Bride/Saints/Elect/Church"

Just one single passage of Scripture is sufficient.............take your time.

 

[Clayman]

You a


WARNING: You added to Gods words which will be judged severely = (departure = pretrib rapture)
and you added 7 Years Tribulation to 2 Thessalonians ch2


PLEASE read Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19

PLEASE continue to worship the LORD and FEAR GOD so as not to fall into Judgment

Peace

I need to clarify what your saying, are you saying I interpret the word departure wrongly when I believe its meaning the rapture occurs at this time? Or are you saying I have removed the word departure from the bible and swapped it out with pretrib rapture?

As to the first, then every believer has been in error at some point in time, no one has perfect understanding saying Im right believe me or be severely judged is a tactic used by cults, if the second that was not my intention at all, Im just showing how I understand the verses if its wrong please kindly show me how?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If people dont see more than one gathering it leads to more problems from my point of view, like that would then mean its the goats entering the millennial kingdom not the sheep.

Agreed.

But some in this thread mistakenly believe the Sheep and goat separation-judgment takes place at the END of the MK age, rather than that which is actually does, at its BEGINNING. They are forced to place it there because of their viewpoint insisting on only one gathering, rather than "our episynagoges unto Him," that is, "IN THE AIR" ("our Rapture") being distinct from Matthew 24:29-31's "gather together" (which is talking about Isa27:12-13,9's "ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel"... where they will be gathered to one place upon the earth, "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM")







[Agreed. It is "the Sheep" / the RIGHTEOUS / the "BLESSED" who will enter the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom... in their mortal bodies; no "goats" allowed. --and the "BLESSED" corresponding to about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of this very thing]

 

[DavidTree]

I need to clarify what your saying, are you saying I interpret the word departure wrongly when I believe its meaning the rapture occurs at this time? Or are you saying I have removed the word departure from the bible and swapped it out with pretrib rapture?

As to the first, then every believer has been in error at some point in time, no one has perfect understanding saying Im right believe me or be severely judged is a tactic used by cults, if the second that was not my intention at all, Im just showing how I understand the verses if its wrong please kindly show me how?

Please accept my love in Christ for you as i mean no harm and no judgment upon you with the warning given.
It is my desire that we all avoid judgment, especially in the area of adding or taking away from God's words.

The word in 2 Thess2:3 'apostacy/falling away' and the word 'departure' can be used in it's place as it does not change the meaning of the passage.

i belive you added "7 Year Tribulation" to this passage which the Apostle Paul did not state nor did he reference.

i believe you also added "pre-trib rapture" to 2 Thess 2:3

Peace

 

[presidente]

but I am pretty sure

You go right ahead and be "pretty sure" about the post-trib rapture bro.

No cool. I said I was pretty sure no one was teaching the pre-trib rapture at the time II Thessalonians 2, and you misrepresented my words to being pretty sure about the post-trib rapture.

I'm not omniscient, and I am not omnipresent. I cannot know if no one ever taught pre-trib 1950 years ago. I just haven't seen any historical evidence of it.

Can you present evidence of an individual author of scripture in an individual book of scripture who taught pretrib.

Whereas I shall remain 100% sure of the pre-trib rapture.

And you can probably find a biological male who is 100% sure that he's a woman. That and $6 will get you a cup of coffee.

Still waiting for your exorbitant florid scholarly fully-featured astute "opinion" on the reason for the sudden arrival of, the nature, origin and identity of the 24 Elders of Revelation 4 & 5.

Not cool again. I already posted about this. You are the one who thinks the 24 elders have something to do with the pre-trib rapture theory. I already responded to this. If you think you know their identity you go ahead and name them. Post their names full names. Go ahead.

I notice you don't do much on this thread but boast and brag about how pre-trib supposedly has everything figured out, but you haven't proven anything or really even tried. You imagine something in the Bible has something to do with pre-trib, then try to get people who don't accept pre-trib to prove your theory, like you are doing with these elders. Go back and read my posts on this in the thread.

Since you are the one who thinks this is relevant to pre-trib go ahead and prove it.

Also, you mentioned the book of Daniel. Show how Daniel fits better with pre-trib. Show how pre-trib is actually taught in Daniel or any other book. You don't usually respond to such challenges. You just post a boast about how great pre-trib is.

So far I get the impression that you think pre-trib fits together like some kind of Mosaic with all the puzzle pieces coming together. Can you show one of the individual authors of the books you are talking about whose writings fit into the Mosaic who wrote a verse or passage or book that, stand-alone, supports pre-trib. Can you offer any evidence that Christ or an individual apostle in his own writings supports pre-trib?

I think you are expecting us to put some kind of puzzle together, when there is no evidence that pre-trib was revealed to any of these authors.

And again, TheDivineWater marks post on 'DOTL' and I Thessalonians 1 and other passages are ways to try to figure out to make pre-trib fit with those passages.... if one accepts a very unnatural reading of the text that goes against the plain sense of the text. But where is the evidence that Christ or the apostles taught pre-trib in the first place to justify assuming pre-trib to make it fit the passage? I notice the crickets chirping when I ask you these questions. You don't respond. You just make another boast about how great pre-trib is.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Are you trying to be dense. Of course the 2W went back up to heaven. Why would you think I don't think they did?

Okay, now you're saying there is a verse telling us that they first CAME DOWN TO THE EARTH FROM HEAVEN in their mortal bodies to do their 1260-days' ministry before being killed and 3.5 days later stand again on their feet before they ascend BACK UP into heaven, so that later they can participate in the [supposed] "shall God bring with Him" FOR the rapture event, which has the dead in Christ "standing again" on the EARTH (i.e. bodily resurrected) before we're all "caught up together [at the same time]" to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR. Wow, those two are REALLY getting the yo-yo treatment, I'm telling you! Wooh!

Now, tell us which verse informs us that those "2W' start out in heaven and descend to the earth so that they can conduct the "1260-days" ministry before being killed.

I'm not seeing it.

My only point was that they were NOT glorified when they went up. Don't you even know what you are debating about?

I wasn't really engaging the "debate points," in that post. That post of mine was meant only as a comment regarding your saying something to the effect of, "they went up, but who knows whether they ever actually arrived there, it doesn't say"... and I was basically saying, yes it does say, in the phrase, "they went up into heaven" (just like the other verse says of the other circumstances, and no one is questioning whether those ppl made their destination at the point being spoken of).

 

[cv5]

No cool. I said I was pretty sure no one was teaching the pre-trib rapture at the time II Thessalonians 2, and you misrepresented my words to being pretty sure about the post-trib rapture.

I'm not omniscient, and I am not omnipresent. I cannot know if no one ever taught pre-trib 1950 years ago. I just haven't seen any historical evidence of it.

Can you present evidence of an individual author of scripture in an individual book of scripture who taught pretrib.



And you can probably find a biological male who is 100% sure that he's a woman. That and $6 will get you a cup of coffee.



Not cool again. I already posted about this. You are the one who thinks the 24 elders have something to do with the pre-trib rapture theory. I already responded to this. If you think you know their identity you go ahead and name them. Post their names full names. Go ahead.

I notice you don't do much on this thread but boast and brag about how pre-trib supposedly has everything figured out, but you haven't proven anything or really even tried. You imagine something in the Bible has something to do with pre-trib, then try to get people who don't accept pre-trib to prove your theory, like you are doing with these elders. Go back and read my posts on this in the thread.

Since you are the one who thinks this is relevant to pre-trib go ahead and prove it.

Also, you mentioned the book of Daniel. Show how Daniel fits better with pre-trib. Show how pre-trib is actually taught in Daniel or any other book. You don't usually respond to such challenges. You just post a boast about how great pre-trib is.

So far I get the impression that you think pre-trib fits together like some kind of Mosaic with all the puzzle pieces coming together. Can you show one of the individual authors of the books you are talking about whose writings fit into the Mosaic who wrote a verse or passage or book that, stand-alone, supports pre-trib. Can you offer any evidence that Christ or an individual apostle in his own writings supports pre-trib?

I think you are expecting us to put some kind of puzzle together, when there is no evidence that pre-trib was revealed to any of these authors.

And again, TheDivineWater marks post on 'DOTL' and I Thessalonians 1 and other passages are ways to try to figure out to make pre-trib fit with those passages.... if one accepts a very unnatural reading of the text that goes against the plain sense of the text. But where is the evidence that Christ or the apostles taught pre-trib in the first place to justify assuming pre-trib to make it fit the passage? I notice the crickets chirping when I ask you these questions. You don't respond. You just make another boast about how great pre-trib is.

Bro.......feel free to come over to the winning pre-trib rapture team any time you like. The invitation is always open.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I need to clarify what your saying, are you saying I interpret the word departure wrongly when I believe its meaning the rapture occurs at this time?

I agree with you that "THE departure" refers to the rapture, i.e. "our episynagoges unto Him" (and no one else involved).

The thing about the definite article ("the") used here (and not used in Acts 21:21 "a departure from Moses"), where in Greek the definite article is not typically necessary, the definite article functions to point BACK to something already mentioned in the text (which v.1's rapture subject certainly fits)

 

[cv5]

I agree with you that "THE departure" refers to the rapture, i.e. "our episynagoges unto Him" (and no one else involved).

The thing about the definite article ("the") used here (and not used in Acts 21:21 "a departure from Moses"), where in Greek the definite article is not typically necessary, the definite article functions to point BACK to something already mentioned in the text (which v.1's rapture subject certainly fits)

Conversely, "the great apostasy" certainly DOES NOT fit.

 

[DavidTree]

I agree with you that "THE departure" refers to the rapture, i.e. "our episynagoges unto Him" (and no one else involved).

The thing about the definite article ("the") used here (and not used in Acts 21:21 "a departure from Moses"), where in Greek the definite article is not typically necessary, the definite article functions to point BACK to something already mentioned in the text (which v.1's rapture subject certainly fits)

apostacy/departure is pointing back to the DOL

Thus, the DOL will not come until the 'departure'/'the falling away' AND the man of sin is revealed..........

The 'falling away/departure' is from the faith/truth as spoken by the LORD, the HOLY SPIRIT and the Apostles

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And again, TheDivineWater marks post on 'DOTL' and I Thessalonians 1 and other passages are ways to try to figure out to make pre-trib fit with those passages.... if one accepts a very unnatural reading of the text that goes against the plain sense of the text.

I think you're referring to 2 Thessalonians 1, where I'm pointing out how the Greek has it worded, rather than how the various translations render it (the ones not lining up with how the Greek has it worded, see)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

apostacy/departure is pointing back to the DOL

Thus, the DOL will not come until

How are you saying this, IF you believe (as I think you do) that "the DOTL" refers here to "His Second Coming to the earth" at Rev19...?







[for the readers: the "false claim" in v.2, "purporting that the day of the Lord is present [perfect indicative]" is NOT talking about Christ's Second Coming--the "false claim" was NOT purporting THAT]

 

[DavidTree]

How are you saying this, IF you believe (as I think you do) that "the DOTL" refers here to "His Second Coming to the earth" at Rev19...?







[for the readers: the "false claim" in v.2, "purporting that the day of the Lord is present [perfect indicative]" is NOT talking about Christ's Second Coming--the "false claim" was NOT purporting THAT]

1 & 2 Thessalonians make it very clear that Apostle Paul is referencing the DOTL

1 & 2 Thessalonians make it clear that the Apostle Paul is referencing His Second Coming

1 & 2 Thessalonians was written so that we can know and not be "soon shaken or troubled that the DOL has come" and that we were LEFT BEHIND.

Do you get that?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1 & 2 Thessalonians make it very clear that Apostle Paul is referencing the DOTL
1 & 2 Thessalonians make it clear that the Apostle Paul is referencing His Second Coming
1 & 2 Thessalonians was written so that we can know and not be "soon shaken or troubled that the DOL has come" and that we were LEFT BEHIND.
Do you get that?

No, I don't get that.

If Christ Himself IS PRESENT, how ON EARTH can one think anything regarding having been "LEFT BEHIND"? Have you, by chance, been reading too much fiction lately?

And what could possibly give us any impression that Paul felt the need to write the Thessalonians regarding such a [supposed] issue?







[Paul in 1Th5:1-4 makes clear that "the day of the Lord" (an earthly TIME PERIOD) commences WELL BEFORE Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19; whereas you are incorrectly equating these]