Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[Clayman]

Please respond with your scriptural reference that dictates a pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ as per the cumulative dictum of the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John and our Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach.

Please show forth the dictum of our LORD Yeshua specifying their will be two seperate Resurections for the Just and then a third resurrection for the unjust as per your and TheDivineWatermark statements wherby you adhere to these things, ie; pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection and then another Church Body of Christ springing up after this supposed pre-trib rapture along with another seperate rapture for the Tribulation Saints who make it unto your claim to a Third Coming of the LORD.

I notice that pretrib view isnt quite understood by all ill try and give it another whirl, im not trying to convince you to change your mind, Im trying to show how I view the chronolgy of events? Ive noticed pre tribbers have a good understanding of the post trib position and I find it curious post tribbers still do not understand the pretrib position, maybe its hard to see

The day of the Lord is referring to the 7yrs of tribulation the time of wrath and judgment that is going to come upon the earth over the 7 yr period, After the rapture happens people are going to go where is Clayman? I was sure he was right here just before! (probably hiding again)

Anyway people will notice a lot of people missing and a Man will start to have great influence upon the whole world and will be supported by an alliance of 10 prominent nations. He will be the savior of the world, and will bring peace esp to Israel, while most people will follow and submit to him and his new age all loving religion, there are going to be a few saying, "What if that Clayman guy was right all along, look the people disappeared in the rapture, we are sinners and judgment is nigh" And they repent and ask God for forgiveness

Also there will be these two guys in Jerusalem preaching the Gospel to the world, and there will be a great many converts. So there are going to be Christians in the tribulation period from a pre tribulation rapture viewpoint who must now go through great trials and persecutions there will be lots of martrys, also one should ask what happens to these new believers? they have missed the rapture could they have missed the resurrection to eternal life as well? No they still partake in the resurrection of the righteous for the first resurrection is completed at the end of the tribulation period at the Lords coming.

So no need to fear for we are reassured by the scriptures they also will be resurected. Thats why there is an order as per 1Cor15:23

More specifically Rev 20:4 tells us those getting resurrected at this time are those from the tribulation period! They are those martyred, those who refused to worship the beast or receive his mark, unique traits that apply to them not us. Again why is it specifically pointing to tribulation saints? We are already resurrected and with the Lord.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And, may I point out that in NEITHER passage is there ANY mention of Jesus taking anyone to heaven.

So the Fathers house is not in heaven

Yes, it is in heaven. Don't be silly.

and the 24 Elders (the Church) are not in heaven

The vast majority of church age believers will be ALREADY in heaven by the time of the Second Advent, so your question is beyond irrelevant. All believers from Adam forward who have died are NOW in heaven.

I gave you what Henry Morris thought the 24 elders were. What more do you want? I doubt you have any idea.

the throne of God is not in heaven

Actually it is in heaven, so why are you being so silly?

and the cherubim are not in heaven either? Doesn't sound right to me bro.

None of your questions sound right. Why do you presume I think any of these silly things?

Rev 11:16
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

OK, from this verse, WHO are the 24 elders?

Rev 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

OK, from this verse, WHO are the 4 beasts?

Rev 19:4
And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

One more time, from this verse, WHO are the 24 elders?

Do you have any clue?

Oh, and btw, how do any of these 3 verses relate to your theory of a rapture trip to heaven?

Every believer from Adam forward who has died was taken to heaven, while their dead bodies are still on earth.

So none of these verses are relevant to any part of the resurrection.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are not "partial-rapturists"... We are NOT saying He will "leave saints behind" when we are raptured. NO!

That reminds me of Rev 3:10 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

This verse has long been used to defend the rapture trip to heaven theory. However, pay attention to what John wrote to that church at Sardis: ONLY the faithfull will be "kept from the hour of trial". So how does that square with your claim above?

It is a matter of WHEN people come to faith. You don't seem to be whining, "but why CAN'T I be an OT saint?!?! NO FAIR!!" That would be silly, as they came to faith at a different time... you can't be one. It's that simple.

You want to know what's simple? Sure.

1. There is one resurrection of the saved.
2. It will occur at the Second Advent "when He comes" to end the Trib and begin the Millennial reign.
3. There is no documentation of a trip to heaven of glorified believers.

Now, that's simple.

 

[DavidTree]

I notice that pretrib view isnt quite understood by all ill try and give it another whirl, im not trying to convince you to change your mind, Im trying to show how I view the chronolgy of events? Ive noticed pre tribbers have a good understanding of the post trib position and I find it curious post tribbers still do not understand the pretrib position, maybe its hard to see

The day of the Lord is referring to the 7yrs of tribulation the time of wrath and judgment that is going to come upon the earth over the 7 yr period, After the rapture happens people are going to go where is Clayman? I was sure he was right here just before! (probably hiding again)

Anyway people will notice a lot of people missing and a Man will start to have great influence upon the whole world and will be supported by an alliance of 10 prominent nations. He will be the savior of the world, and will bring peace esp to Israel, while most people will follow and submit to him and his new age all loving religion, there are going to be a few saying, "What if that Clayman guy was right all along, look the people disappeared in the rapture, we are sinners and judgment is nigh" And they repent and ask God for forgiveness

Also there will be these two guys in Jerusalem preaching the Gospel to the world, and there will be a great many converts. So there are going to be Christians in the tribulation period from a pre tribulation rapture viewpoint who must now go through great trials and persecutions there will be lots of martrys, also one should ask what happens to these new believers? they have missed the rapture could they have missed the resurrection to eternal life as well? No they still partake in the resurrection of the righteous for the first resurrection is completed at the end of the tribulation period at the Lords coming.

So no need to fear for we are reassured by the scriptures they also will be resurected. Thats why there is an order as per 1Cor15:23

More specifically Rev 20:4 tells us those getting resurrected at this time are those from the tribulation period! They are those martyred, those who refused to worship the beast or receive his mark, unique traits that apply to them not us. Again why is it specifically pointing to tribulation saints? We are already resurrected and with the Lord.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Can you please take the time and respond to Post#659 as it is put forth.

Peace

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
And, may I point out that in NEITHER passage is there ANY mention of Jesus taking anyone to heaven.

Yes, it is in heaven. Don't be silly.


The vast majority of church age believers will be ALREADY in heaven by the time of the Second Advent, so your question is beyond irrelevant. All believers from Adam forward who have died are NOW in heaven.

I gave you what Henry Morris thought the 24 elders were. What more do you want? I doubt you have any idea.


Actually it is in heaven, so why are you being so silly?


None of your questions sound right. Why do you presume I think any of these silly things?


OK, from this verse, WHO are the 24 elders?


OK, from this verse, WHO are the 4 beasts?


One more time, from this verse, WHO are the 24 elders?

Do you have any clue?

Oh, and btw, how do any of these 3 verses relate to your theory of a rapture trip to heaven?

Every believer from Adam forward who has died was taken to heaven, while their dead bodies are still on earth.

So none of these verses are relevant to any part of the resurrection.

 

[GaryA]

Examine more closely...

I did.

(And, I am glad I did - because, I learned something very interesting that I had not thought about before.)

You are correct about it being transitive; however, that does not change the meaning of the perfect indicative form of the root word G1764.

It does not mean that 'the day of Christ' (itself) is 'present' (or, has occurred); rather, it means that the base meaning of the root word 'to place on hand' [has occurred] - i.e. - that 'the day of Christ' is 'imminent'.

The whole sentence, in the context of the passage, is [effectively] saying that the day of Christ is not 'imminent'.

(But that, in fact, some things must/would [still yet] occur before 'the day of Christ'.)

It was the idea of the day of Christ being 'imminent' that was the "false claim" that was at the center of the concern...

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And, may I point out that in NEITHER passage is there ANY mention of Jesus taking anyone to heaven.

Yes, it is in heaven. Don't be silly.
The vast majority of church age believers will be ALREADY in heaven by the time of the Second Advent, so your question is beyond irrelevant. All believers from Adam forward who have died are NOW in heaven.

I gave you what Henry Morris thought the 24 elders were. What more do you want? I doubt you have any idea.

Actually it is in heaven, so why are you being so silly?

None of your questions sound right. Why do you presume I think any of these silly things?

OK, from this verse, WHO are the 24 elders?
OK, from this verse, WHO are the 4 beasts?
One more time, from this verse, WHO are the 24 elders?
Do you have any clue?
Oh, and btw, how do any of these 3 verses relate to your theory of a rapture trip to heaven?
Every believer from Adam forward who has died was taken to heaven, while their dead bodies are still on earth.
So none of these verses are relevant to any part of the resurrection.

Kinda left you speechless, huh.

Well, do you know who the 24 elders are and the 4 beasts, or not?

If not, why are you curious about what others think about it?

And, how does their identities make any difference in the debate about whether there will be a glorified trip to heaven?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did.

(And, I am glad I did - because, I learned something very interesting that I had not thought about before.)

You are correct about it being transitive; however, that does not change the meaning of the perfect indicative form of the root word G1764.

It does not mean that 'the day of Christ' (itself) is 'present' (or, has occurred); rather, it means that the base meaning of the root word 'to place on hand' [has occurred] - i.e. - that 'the day of Christ' is 'imminent'.

The whole sentence, in the context of the passage, is [effectively] saying that the day of Christ is not 'imminent'.

(But that, in fact, some things must/would [still yet] occur before 'the day of Christ'.)

It was the idea of the day of Christ being 'imminent' that was the "false claim" that was at the center of the concern...

Exactly!! And even in the English translations that is actually clear, in spite of the protestations of the pre-tribbers.

They are so intent on holding on to their theory they see it in every verse. Though there is NO VERSE that speaks of glorified believers being taken to heaven.

 

[cv5]

-Well, do you know who the 24 elders are and the 4 beasts, or not?
-glorified trip to heaven?

1) of course I do. The 24 Elders are the pre-trib raptured Church on their glorified bodies. The "zoon ζῷον " are cherubim who guard the throne of God.
2) in His glorified resurrection body, Jesus shuttled back and forth and back and forth from heaven to earth many times. It could have been many many more times than were recorded.

So it shall be with us in our resurrected bodies. Pretty obvious bro. Types, patterns, structure, examples. "show me the verse" is sooooo one dimensional.

 

[cv5]

It does not mean that 'the day of Christ' (itself) is 'present' (or, has occurred); rather, it means that the base meaning of the root word 'to place on hand' [has occurred] - i.e. - that 'the day of Christ' is 'imminent'.

The whole sentence, in the context of the passage, is [effectively] saying that the day of Christ is not 'imminent'.

Not sure about that bro...

has come ἐνέστηκεν
(enestēken) 1764: to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present from en and histémi

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It does not mean that 'the day of Christ' (itself) is 'present' (or, has occurred); rather, it means that the base meaning of the root word 'to place on hand' [has occurred] - i.e. - that 'the day of Christ' is 'imminent'.
[...]
It was the idea of the day of Christ being 'imminent' that was the "false claim" that was at the center of the concern...

Okay, so let's test this interpretation and see if we think it sounds like Paul's voice:


[vv.2-3 saying something to the effect of...]


1) "do not be soon / quickly shaken in mind..."

[G4531 saleuó - "by a tropical use foreign to secular authors, to move or agitate the mind, to disturb one"]


2) "...nor be troubled / alarmed..."

["2360 throéō (from throos, "clamor, tumult") – properly, unsettled (thrown into confusion, WS, 953); (figuratively) troubled (disturbed), wanting to "cry aloud, to scream (passive) because terrified" (WP, 1, 189); thrown into an "emotional uproar," i.e. very upset (alarmed, startled)."--HELPS Word Studies, at BibleHub]


3) [supposedly by means of the following] ...by anyone trying to claim that the Lord's Second Coming (thus our Rapture), i.e. 'the day of Christ', is 'imminent'... (and I, Paul, feel the need to say this to you, because I know that such a thought / such an idea [though 'false' coz not really true] would throw any faithful believer, loving Christ dearly, and consequently "eagerly awaiting Him," into a state of such TERROR at such a thought!!!!... Calm down, y'all... don't let such a false claim cause you "tumult," because, like, I know... that is such a HORRID, TERRIFYING THOUGHT, we should shun even the entertaining-for-a-moment of such a grotesque idea; So, now that that's out of the way, here are a couple items [v.3] that should bring you great "comfort" to dwell your minds upon instead [my corrective I thought would help you out, if you ever hear such a false claim, this will calm your great distress/'upset-ness' that it causes you]...): it/He/His coming won't be "imminent" until... [names two items of utmost 'comfort' in the rest of v.3]...



How does this even remotely "make sense" of the text?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
-Well, do you know who the 24 elders are and the 4 beasts, or not?
-glorified trip to heaven?

1) of course I do. The 24 Elders are the pre-trib raptured Church on their glorified bodies.

Refuted by 1 Cor 15:23 which says IN PLAIN LANGUAGE that the resurrection of "those who belong to Him" (EVERY believer from Adam on who has died) and that will occur "WHEN He comes".

The "zoon ζῷον " are cherubim who guard the throne of God.

OK.

2) in His glorified resurrection body, Jesus shuttled back and forth and back and forth from heaven to earth many times. It could have been many many more times than were recorded.

Well, this is new, sort of. Where do you get your "shuttled back and forth etc" from? A number of verses are clear about the singular resurrection of the saved. There is only 1. Your idea of multiple resurrections is unsupported because it is unbiblical.

Every mention of "His coming" the "coming of Jesus", etc is a reference to the Second Advent. Why is this? Because the OT prophesied of TWO times that Jesus comes to earth.

First Advent is His coming as a baby to become the Suffering Servant.
Second Advent is His coming as King of kings.

This is undeniable and irrefutable. So your idea that He makes multiple visits is unbiblical.

In fact, Acts 3:21 clearly refutes all of your ideas.

Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

The Greek word for "receive" means, according to lexicons, is "to retain, or contain". A number of translations have "Jesus must remain IN heaven until the times of restoration", an obvious reference to His Millennial kingdom.

So it shall be with us in our resurrected bodies. Pretty obvious bro.

You are hilarious. Not even close to biblical.

Types, patterns, structure, examples.

And you have NONE of these. Only your wishes, opinions, presumptions.

"show me the verse" is sooooo one dimensional.

Silly defense against the charge that you have NO verses that say what you say.

The Bereans would have run you out of town for your unbiblical teaching.

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

I used this verse and replaced "Paul" with cv5 and found your claims are unbiblical.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Not sure about that bro...

has come ἐνέστηκεν
(enestēken) 1764: to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present from en and histémi

Right.

And here's another one:

[quoting from BibleHub]

"From en and histemi; to place on hand"


-- https://biblehub.com/greek/1764.htm (Scroll down to "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance")




It would be like someone saying to you, "do you happen to have any paper towels 'placed on hand' [i.e. 'present']?" (perfect indicative)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here's a partial quote by one, "Weima" (I only quoted this part because I'm only trying to point out what he's saying here, and not to his "conclusion" which I disagree with, and don't believe the text would be alluding to, at all):

[fwiw...]

Weima: “Most commentators conclude that the Christians in Thessalonica likely did not understand the day of the Lord to be a single and instantaneous happening but rather to be a complex number of events, of which Christ’s parousia was just one part (so, e.g., Frame 1912: 248; Best 1977: 279; Marhsall 1983: 186; Morris 1991: 217; Wanamaker 1990: 240; Dunn 1998: 301n37; for objections, see Nicholl 2004:117). The claim that ‘the day of the Lord has come,’ therefore, would be interpreted by the Thessalonians to mean that the series of events connected with that eschatological day have begun to unfold and that [...]"

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

@Lucy-Pevensie , when "our Rapture" takes place, NO BELIEVER / SAINT / member of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY will be "left behind"; Thus, ALL who are present on the earth at the start of the Trib yrs are UNSAVED / UNBELIEVERS (however you want to say it).

But they don't STAY that way; I don't mean all of them, I just mean MANY ppl will be coming to faith in Christ THEN / DURING the trib years, and thus will BECOME "saints" (the "saints" being spoken of in the passages covering that time-period).




Matt24:14 [26:13] is what msg will be going out DURING the Trib years (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"); it is not speaking of what msg is going out presently. [let the readers compare Matt24:14 with Rev7:9, for example]

So the activities of The Antichrist cause unbelievers to repent by hearing a different gospel message while we dine in heaven.
2 churches & 2 gospels.

 

[cv5]

So the activities of The Antichrist cause unbelievers to repent by hearing a different gospel message while we dine in heaven.
2 churches & 2 gospels.

There is a distinction made between trib saints and the Church. As there is between OT saints and the Church.

The Church per se is one and done. Starts at Pentecost ends at the rapture. THEN the 70th week of Daniel, where God intervenes with wrath and judgments upon the earth dwellers, and also finalizes His dealings and fulfills His covenant with Israel. Of course others (trib saints and sheep gentiles) get an overflow of redemptive blessings too.

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

 

[cv5]

So the activities of The Antichrist cause unbelievers to repent by hearing a different gospel message while we dine in heaven.
2 churches & 2 gospels.

You see.....your misapprehensions all derive from a point of eschatological error. That being denying or misunderstanding the pre-trib rapture.

Should you integrate the Biblical reality of the pre-trib rapture of the Church into your eschatology.......everything else falls into order. Perfectly. Flawlessly. No errors, no omissions, no paradoxes, no dilemmas, no loose ends.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So the activities of The Antichrist cause unbelievers to repent by hearing a different gospel message while we dine in heaven.
2 churches & 2 gospels.

No, the activities of The Antichrist are not the cause.

And, as I've repeatedly stated to you, when you've presented this "strawman" about us supposedly "dining in heaven" while the Trib takes place on the earth, (not to mention, that I have stated this several times in this very thread), the "supper / feast" is the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (commencing upon His RETURN to the earth); it's not what we'll be doing "in Heaven" (following "our Rapture")




[ONE "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... which is ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]" and having the unique feature of the "sealing" and permanent "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit]

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

There is a distinction made between trib saints and the Church. As there is between OT saints and the Church.

The Church per se is one and done. Starts at Pentecost ends at the rapture. THEN the 70th week of Daniel, where God intervenes with wrath and judgments upon the earth dwellers, and also finalizes His dealings and fulfills His covenant with Israel. Of course others (trib saints and sheep gentiles) get an overflow of redemptive blessings too.

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

I know the theory. I was taught it as a young Christian. I don't agree with it.

 

[DavidTree]

I did.

(And, I am glad I did - because, I learned something very interesting that I had not thought about before.)

You are correct about it being transitive; however, that does not change the meaning of the perfect indicative form of the root word G1764.

It does not mean that 'the day of Christ' (itself) is 'present' (or, has occurred); rather, it means that the base meaning of the root word 'to place on hand' [has occurred] - i.e. - that 'the day of Christ' is 'imminent'.

The whole sentence, in the context of the passage, is [effectively] saying that the day of Christ is not 'imminent'.

(But that, in fact, some things must/would [still yet] occur before 'the day of Christ'.)

It was the idea of the day of Christ being 'imminent' that was the "false claim" that was at the center of the concern...

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a WINNER in today's Truth Challenge of 'Untangle the Bungle'.

Stay tuned for more interruptions on the continuing saga of 'Truth or Dare - Your Pre-Trib Nightmare'

And remember that we are always here for you -
faithfully bearing the Shield of Faith and Standing Strong in the Word of Truth

Peace and Good-Nite from your Brothers in Arms