Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 7, 2022

I'm not suggesting you are amil.

I'm pointing out a poor method of "interpretation" (which leads "Amill-teachings" to the wrong conclusions they come to, in Acts 3, based on their poor reasoning and faulty interpretational methods)

It is far better for the reader and student of Scripture to go to the text in question and examine the thing in question within its own wider context (which I expect the readers of my posts to go do, when I supply references to texts, if they're really interested in "Bible Discussion" and assuming they have access to a Bible, either online or a hard copy within reach of their own hands)...

... but nevertheless, per your request, here is a Copy & Paste of those verses pulled out of that overall text, the 3x "raise" (in Acts 3) having been referred to in my posts:

[Peter, speaking to "ye men of Israel," v.12]

Acts 3:15 -

And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised [G1453] from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 3:22 -

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up [G450] unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 3:26 -

Unto you first God, having raised up [G450] his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

cv5 · Oct 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

You got THAT one right. Congrats bro.

So tell me.....are the gentile sheep who survive the SC judgement a part of the Body the Church? Do they receive glorified bodies post-survival? What is their story?

Dan 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Is Daniel writing about Christians here?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
John died before Jesus did. So he is an OT saint.

cv5 said:

Your condescension is noted.

Do they have "a story"? Read it yourself.

The saved people who survive the Tribulation and who will be "caught up" or "gathered together" for their glorified body "when He comes" at the Second Advent. They are all apart of "those who BELONG TO HIM", if you understand English.

He is writing about "those who belong to Him", from 1 Cor 15:23.

I think you can figure that out, if you are opened minded about it.

But I also think you also know that such an admission will sink your eschatology.

DavidTree · Oct 7, 2022

Clayman said:

I notice that pretrib view isnt quite understood by all ill try and give it another whirl, im not trying to convince you to change your mind, Im trying to show how I view the chronolgy of events? Ive noticed pre tribbers have a good understanding of the post trib position and I find it curious post tribbers still do not understand the pretrib position, maybe its hard to see

The day of the Lord is referring to the 7yrs of tribulation the time of wrath and judgment that is going to come upon the earth over the 7 yr period, After the rapture happens people are going to go where is Clayman? I was sure he was right here just before! (probably hiding again)

Anyway people will notice a lot of people missing and a Man will start to have great influence upon the whole world and will be supported by an alliance of 10 prominent nations. He will be the savior of the world, and will bring peace esp to Israel, while most people will follow and submit to him and his new age all loving religion, there are going to be a few saying, "What if that Clayman guy was right all along, look the people disappeared in the rapture, we are sinners and judgment is nigh" And they repent and ask God for forgiveness

Also there will be these two guys in Jerusalem preaching the Gospel to the world, and there will be a great many converts. So there are going to be Christians in the tribulation period from a pre tribulation rapture viewpoint who must now go through great trials and persecutions there will be lots of martrys, also one should ask what happens to these new believers? they have missed the rapture could they have missed the resurrection to eternal life as well? No they still partake in the resurrection of the righteous for the first resurrection is completed at the end of the tribulation period at the Lords coming.

So no need to fear for we are reassured by the scriptures they also will be resurected. Thats why there is an order as per 1Cor15:23

More specifically Rev 20:4 tells us those getting resurrected at this time are those from the tribulation period! They are those martyred, those who refused to worship the beast or receive his mark, unique traits that apply to them not us. Again why is it specifically pointing to tribulation saints? We are already resurrected and with the Lord.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There is a specific reason why the LORD only mentioned "those which had not worshipped the beast" in Rev ch20.

It is a condemnation, from the LORD, upon the lie of pre-trib rature.

cv5 · Oct 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Though I think your analysis woefully erroneous, you are entitled to your opinion.
What you fail to understand is that the Bible is not a blender. It is a beautifully parsed and itemized spreadsheet.

Clayman · Oct 7, 2022

DavidTree said:

Ok why not, for Im sure if its pointed out again you will go "aha" I see it now and change your tune

DavidTree said:

You know this is a straw man knowing no one believes this.

So I disagree with you thinking we precede them so the answer to your question is its irrelevant for we do not precede them...

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. 15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.…

Well there is more than two stages for the resurrection of the Just I mean the Lord was the first stage or does He not count?

I have already attempted to answer this point and I gave Rev 20:4 as the proof text as it is clearly defining the tribulation saints in this verse, it is a nice round peg that fits nicely into my round hole, post trib try and say rev 20:4 is referring to all the saints over all time, to fit into there one resurection plus the Lords which is two resurrections of course, which is too big a pill for me too swallow, I would really need a big massive hammer to force that square peg into the round hole.

Clayman said:

Ok a challenge for you my friend, give me one example where the church is mentioned in the tribulation period? I say the church is not here so show me the Church? and it would give me pause to consider, if you cant find an example, hopefully the argument from silence which would collaborate pre trib will give you pause to reconsider! Im assuming your post trib premil.

Also notice the day of judgment is for all those on the whole earth, yet there is a hint of escape for some.

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Everyone one knows from the OT scriptures that day is the terrible day of the Lord, the day of judgment and wrath which is yet to come to pass, yet there is an escape. For those who can stand before the Lord Jesus and are worthy, can only be the Bride my friend.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Rev 3:10 tells us of an hour of trial to come the hour which is to come upon the whole world, to test the whole world, we know the saints in the tribulation period suffer these trials and are killed en masse so who is rescued from the wrath to come? us the Church.

DavidTree said:

Or it could fit neatly with the Church being caught up in the air to meet the lord and being removed from Gods appointed wrath upon the world.

Rev 22 He who testifies to these things says, yea; I come quickly Amen;come, Lord Jesus

If I was post trib I would not pray for the Lord to come today or tomorrow, I would pray, please come so the timing of your wrath will not be poured out on me and my loved ones... yet would that not be a contradiction.

Of course we dont have to worry about that, when He comes we will in the Twinkling of an eye be caught up to Him to be forever with Him, so we pray come quickly the quicker the better Lord Jesus yet according to your will not mine.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 7, 2022

cv5 said:

Of course it is. And it is quite obviously clear about a number of things that seem to have flown right over your head.

1. There will be one resurrection of the saved, all at the same time. Dan 12:2, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15
2. That single resurrection will include all believers of all time. 1 Cor 15:23
3. That single resurrection will be when Jesus Christ returns to earth to end the Tribulation and reign in His Millennial kingdom. 2 Thess 2:1-3, Rev 20:4-6

Simple as 1-2-3.

And I've given the clear proof of these 3 facts.

What do you have for support? Nothing but a bunch of convoluted, impossible to follow explanations of verses that say nothing clearly about Jesus taking glorified believers back to heaven.

If you really think that these 3 facts, with clear biblical evidence, is just an attempt at using a blender to chew up the Bible, you have deeper problems than just your eschatology.

In fact, it is your convoluted explanations that appear to have come from your own blender.

cv5 · Oct 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Of course it is. And it is quite obviously clear about a number of things that seem to have flown right over your head.

1. There will be one resurrection of the saved, all at the same time. Dan 12:2, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15
2. That single resurrection will include all believers of all time. 1 Cor 15:23
3. That single resurrection will be when Jesus Christ returns to earth to end the Tribulation and reign in His Millennial kingdom. 2 Thess 2:1-3, Rev 20:4-6

Simple as 1-2-3.

And I've given the clear proof of these 3 facts.

What do you have for support? Nothing but a bunch of convoluted, impossible to follow explanations of verses that say nothing clearly about Jesus taking glorified believers back to heaven.

If you really think that these 3 facts, with clear biblical evidence, is just an attempt at using a blender to chew up the Bible, you have deeper problems than just your eschatology.

In fact, it is your convoluted explanations that appear to have come from your own blender.

DavidTree · Oct 7, 2022

Clayman said:

Ok why not, for Im sure if its pointed out again you will go "aha" I see it now and change your tune

You know this is a straw man knowing no one believes this.

So I disagree with you thinking we precede them so the answer to your question is its irrelevant for we do not precede them...

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. 15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.…

Well there is more than two stages for the resurrection of the Just I mean the Lord was the first stage or does He not count?

I have already attempted to answer this point and I gave Rev 20:4 as the proof text as it is clearly defining the tribulation saints in this verse, it is a nice round peg that fits nicely into my round hole, post trib try and say rev 20:4 is referring to all the saints over all time, to fit into there one resurection plus the Lords which is two resurrections of course, which is too big a pill for me too swallow, I would really need a big massive hammer to force that square peg into the round hole.

Ok a challenge for you my friend, give me one example where the church is mentioned in the tribulation period? I say the church is not here so show me the Church? and it would give me pause to consider, if you cant find an example, hopefully the argument from silence which would collaborate pre trib will give you pause to reconsider! Im assuming your post trib premil.

Also notice the day of judgment is for all those on the whole earth, yet there is a hint of escape for some.

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Everyone one knows from the OT scriptures that day is the terrible day of the Lord, the day of judgment and wrath which is yet to come to pass, yet there is an escape. For those who can stand before the Lord Jesus and are worthy, can only be the Bride my friend.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Rev 3:10 tells us of an hour of trial to come the hour which is to come upon the whole world, to test the whole world, we know the saints in the tribulation period suffer these trials and are killed en masse so who is rescued from the wrath to come? us the Church.

Or it could fit neatly with the Church being caught up in the air to meet the lord and being removed from Gods appointed wrath upon the world.

Rev 22 He who testifies to these things says, yea; I come quickly Amen;come, Lord Jesus

If I was post trib I would not pray for the Lord to come today or tomorrow, I would pray, please come so the timing of your wrath will not be poured out on me and my loved ones... yet would that not be a contradiction.

Of course we dont have to worry about that, when He comes we will in the Twinkling of an eye be caught up to Him to be forever with Him, so we pray come quickly the quicker the better Lord Jesus yet according to your will not mine.

You have me busting a gut as you clearly are miscued on pre-trib that you cannot even SEE what the Scriptures are saying.

Case in point #1 - You said: "Ok a challenge for you my friend, give me one example where the church is mentioned in the tribulation period." - your Post #706

Revelation Truth 101 - the Church/Body of Christ/Saints are seen in Revelation from chapter 1 thru to chapter 22

How is it you cannot SEE ???

May the Holy Spirit grant you Rest in the Truth

Peace

GaryA · Oct 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Yep - that pretty-much seems to be the way it is...

GaryA · Oct 7, 2022

cv5 said:

That's okay - you don't have to be. But, I feel quite certain about it...

GaryA · Oct 7, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

Okay, so let's test this interpretation and see if we think it sounds like Paul's voice:

[vv.2-3 saying something to the effect of...]

1) "do not be soon / quickly shaken in mind..."

[G4531 saleuó - "by a tropical use foreign to secular authors, to move or agitate the mind, to disturb one"]

2) "...nor be troubled / alarmed..."

["2360 throéō (from throos, "clamor, tumult") – properly, unsettled (thrown into confusion, WS, 953); (figuratively) troubled (disturbed), wanting to "cry aloud, to scream (passive) because terrified" (WP, 1, 189); thrown into an "emotional uproar," i.e. very upset (alarmed, startled)."--HELPS Word Studies, at BibleHub]

3) [supposedly by means of the following] ...by anyone trying to claim that the Lord's Second Coming (thus our Rapture), i.e. 'the day of Christ', is 'imminent'... (and I, Paul, feel the need to say this to you, because I know that such a thought / such an idea [though 'false' coz not really true] would throw any faithful believer, loving Christ dearly, and consequently "eagerly awaiting Him," into a state of such TERROR at such a thought!!!!... Calm down, y'all... don't let such a false claim cause you "tumult," because, like, I know... that is such a HORRID, TERRIFYING THOUGHT, we should shun even the entertaining-for-a-moment of such a grotesque idea; So, now that that's out of the way, here are a couple items [v.3] that should bring you great "comfort" to dwell your minds upon instead [my corrective I thought would help you out, if you ever hear such a false claim, this will calm your great distress/'upset-ness' that it causes you]...): it/He/His coming won't be "imminent" until... [names two items of utmost 'comfort' in the rest of v.3]...

How does this even remotely "make sense" of the text?

What you said here - doesn't. What Paul said, however - does.

The 'trouble' being referred to is not about "fear" - that Christ might return sooner, or anything else. Rather, it is about what develops in the mind of a person when they are told something that is in direct opposition to what they have well-learned to be the truth.

It is the kind of 'trouble' that you experience (in your mind) when you start questioning yourself...

cv5 · Oct 7, 2022

GaryA said:

It's the fear of suffering the consequences of something that they were taught by Paul would never happen to them. So what is that thing? And how does it relate to a correct view of end time eschatology vis a vis Christians?

GaryA · Oct 8, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

No. Try again. To be comparable to the verse, it must be: third-person singular has [verb action] [event]

'transitive' verb (verb action: "to place on hand") [with an] 'event' as direct object

'perfect' tense - he/she/it has [verb action]

The sense of 'present' is not [about] 'location' - it is [about] 'occurrence'.

It is not about what is "placed" - or where it is "placed" - it is about "being placed" [on hand] - being made to be 'established'.

It is about the end result of the process of transitioning to being "in [a] valid position of readiness" - or, 'established'.

And, because the direct object is an 'event' - it has the overall sense of "[event] could happen at any moment"...

[verb action] ----> [direct object]

'established' ----> ['event']

('---->' = "acting upon")

GaryA · Oct 8, 2022

cv5 said:

I see you have a new favorite emoji...

Ruby123 · Oct 8, 2022

This argument will probably continue till rapture.

GaryA · Oct 8, 2022

cv5 said:

What I was referring to is more along the lines of 'confusion' and 'self-doubt' rather than 'fear'...

GaryA · Oct 8, 2022

Ruby123 said:

No-doubt...

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 8, 2022

GaryA said:

Not exactly, no, "the day of the Lord" is a very lengthy earthly-located time period which commences with the initial "birth pang [1Th5:1-3]" of many more "birth pangS" [Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 and more] which will follow on from that initial "birth pang [1Th5:1-3... the ARRIVAL of the earthly-located TIME PERIOD]"...

(the DOTL continues on clear to the end of the MK age, but the false claim wasn't concerning the END of it, but the [supposed] fact that it had already started "at a specific point of time in past (.) with results CONTINUING ON into the present (--->)" ['perfect tense indicative']);
...referring to the "JUDGMENTs" ("DARK" / "DARKNESS" / "IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF it, i.e. commonly called the Tribulation Period, which would be a VERY REASONABLE thing for them to be "shaken in mind" about, as if the false claim were "true," BECAUSE of their present very negative "persecutions and tribulations" they were at that time ENDURing, per what Paul says earlier in this SAME CONTEXT: 2Th1:4

[the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect (i.e. the Trib yrs), which is what that whole entire time period starts with, is when the "LAMPS LIT" takes place; The "DOTL" is entirely earthly located, whereas "the day of Christ / our Lord Jesus Christ [etc]" is when WE will be UP THERE *WITH HIM* ("BEMA" rewards, etc) and it runs CONCURRENTLY with the "DARK / DARKNESS / IN THE NIGHT / NO LIGHT IN IT" part of "the DOTL" (aka the Trib yrs)... the reason it is called "DARK / DARKNESS / IN THE NIGHT" is because EVERY SINGLE "LIGHT BULB" (us!) will have been taken UP OUT OF THE WORLD, for that spans of time; hence, the "LAMPS LIT" thing will commence in that "IN THE NIGHT" time period; We / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY will not be present on the earth DURING that particular "future, specific, LIMITED time period]

So, whereas THAT ^ ("the DOTL") is a "TIME PERIOD" (rather than an "EVENT"), the item in vv1b (by CONTRAST) IS an "EVENT" ("OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" at the "SNATCH" point in time)

Clayman · Oct 8, 2022

DavidTree said:

The church is mentioned in the book of Revelation for sure, as you know I believe the bride is removed before the tribulation period, my challenge to you was to show me where bouts in the tribulation period, so you need to be more specific so I may see it.

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