Russia/Ukraine

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arthurfleminger

Well-known member
#3
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
780
113
#3
As most on this thread, I'd like to see Putin and Russia fail in their attempt to takeover the Ukraine. That being said, I have little sympathy for the Ukrainian government, it's people, or the country. The reason that I have no compassion for Ukraine and it's people is simple. The empire of the Soviet Union completely collapsed at the end of 1991, over thirty years ago.

Since that time 14 countries that were integrated into the Soviet Union left their camp. This included 7 Warsaw Pact nations, nations that committed themselves to fighting on the side of the Soviet Union in future wars. These 14 countries gladly embraced and joined NATO, the powerful North Atlantic Treaty Organization that has held Russia in check since the end of WWII. They joined to offer their support against Russian aggression. Read:

The 14 Former Soviet and Soviet-aligned Republics That Joined NATO After the Cold War – 24/7 Wall St. (247wallst.com)

But, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine embraced Russia and pledged it's loyalty to the Communist regime. Many Ukranians still support Russia and would like to see the Ukraine reincorporated into the Russian sphere.

Russia is having a hard time in conquering Ukraine, but Russia is a weakling when compared to NATO and it's powerful allies. Russia would not dare attack any NATO country.

Ukraine failed to liberate itself from Russia, instead pledging it's loyalty. And now it's paying the price. Ukraine refused to support NATO and now it wants NATO to pull it's ass out of the fire.

Does NATO owe the Ukraine it's support in weapons and materials? No it does not. But it is good that NATO is supporting Ukraine in it's war against Russia. Russia has supported all of NATO's enemies, in their wars against insurgenst, with weapons and material assistnce. And it's payback time.

Russia is seeking to revive it's empire and the cold war. Russia is showing it's true colors. And, with the help of NATO's support, Ukraine is rubbing Russia's nose in it.
 
XavierJesusLovesIndia

XavierJesusLovesIndia

Banned
#5
Nov 26, 2021
1,125
545
113
India
#5
Russia is threatening to relapse into Communism - which Raegan and Pope John Paul II rightly called the "Evil Empire" - and crush Ukraine by its unjust invasion. Some 10 Million people are displaced from their homes and suffering. Pray for Peace. In Jesus' Name.
 
A

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
#6
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
780
113
#6
At this time I'm sure that Putin realizes that he made a greivous error by invading the Ukraine. He didn't expect NATO countries to contribute support to Ukraine, in the form of military weapons. Putin actually expect his 'military operation' in Ukraine to take only one or two weeks. He was sure that his military was so powerful that the Ukraine would collapse, surrender, and that Zelensky would flee the country.

None of Putin's plan worked and he's being thoroughly humiliated in every aspect of the invasion. The loss of Russian military equipment/lives/morale is staggering. The Russian military, army/navy/airforce, has proven to be a weak and ineffective fighting machine.

As I see it, the problem to peace is that Putin has no way out, no 'off ramp' to leave the war. If he up and leaves and quits the invasion empty handed, Russian people and politicians will seek revenge against Putin. For sure he will lose his power/wealth/office and maybe his life. Putin has no way out and is forced to continue.

So, Putin continues to act the bravado he-man leader of Russia. continuing to issue more and more threats as part of his plan to save face. He can't just back down.
 
P

Polar

Guest
#7
#7
arthurfleminger said:
But, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine embraced Russia and pledged it's loyalty to the Communist regime. Many Ukranians still support Russia and would like to see the Ukraine reincorporated into the Russian sphere.
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that is actually a very low percentile of about 3% that wish to rejoin mother Russia

must be something about communism and a dictator with secret police and deep dark dungeons that do not appeal to the rest :unsure:

as for the so called loyalty to Russia, well that does not quite compute either

The Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation was an agreement between Ukraine and Russia, signed in 1997, which fixed the principle of strategic partnership, the recognition of the inviolability of existing borders, and respect for territorial integrity and mutual commitment not to use its territory to harm the security of each other. The treaty prevents Ukraine and Russia from invading one another's country respectively, and declaring war.[2] Ukraine announced its intention not to renew the treaty in September 2018.[3] By doing so the treaty did expire on 31 March 2019.[4][3] The treaty was also known as the "Big Treaty".[5][6]

Until 2019, the treaty was automatically renewed on each 10th anniversary of its signing, unless one party advised the other of its intention to end the treaty six months prior to the date of the renewal.[1][7]

Russia–Ukraine relations have deteriorated since the 2014 Russian annexation of Crimea and Russian support for separatist forces in the war in Ukraine's Donbass region.[8] In response, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed a decree not to extend the treaty.


gee, you know, seems Russia broke the treaty by invading Ukraine. I mean I would not call what Putin did respecting territorial integrity

dunno where you got your 'facts' from :oops:

of course you do not have to like any country, Ukraine included, but that would be a personal preference. the reasons you have given for that dislike, are not as you have opined
 
ZNP

ZNP

Well-known member
#10
Sep 14, 2020
36,778
6,742
113
#10
cv5 said:
View attachment 244135
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The old RIP strategy to being a peacemaker. Once all your enemies, and everyone who disagrees with you, and all those who might disagree with you in the future, once they are all dead, then you will have peace. It is the thought behind the Georgia guidestones, once 93% of the people on earth are dead, then they can have peace because the remaining 6% will know not to disagree with the 1%.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#11
Nov 20, 2018
23,034
8,375
113
#11
The Art of War:

After shelling your own nuclear power plant, blow up your own gas pipeline and then to ensure victory blow up your own bridge to cut your own supply line.

— Sun Tzu
 
ZNP

ZNP

Well-known member
#12
Sep 14, 2020
36,778
6,742
113
#12
cv5 said:
The Art of War:

After shelling your own nuclear power plant, blow up your own gas pipeline and then to ensure victory blow up your own bridge to cut your own supply line.

— Sun Tzu
Click to expand...
Actually that is the Jim Carrey version

 
Angela53510

Angela53510

Senior Member
#16
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,957
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#16
As someone whose grandparents' homeland was Ukraine, I see Putin and his Russian invasion as genocide. Putin admires "Stalin." Stalin murdered 8-10 million Ukrainians, Jews, gypsies, etc in the Holomodor in 1932-33. He stole every bit of food the peasants had, and starved them to death. People were eating grass and frogs. Stalin was back at it again ini 1937-38, and my great grandfather was killed at that time!

I know many Ukrainian people with family in Ukraine, and some still have letters dating back to those massacres, telling about the depravity of the Russians, and the unusual cruelty of the murderers during those periods of time. Further, Hitler and Stalin were great friends, until Hitler invaded Russia. Stalin taught Hitler everything about being a cruel, mad dictator. Stalin is the man Putin admires! Doesn't say much about Putin! Or communists! (But then, we already knew about them!)

I am reading a book called "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin" by Timothy Snyder. A Ukrainian history professor, Snyder documents what happened in the 1930's. Yet most people in the western world have no idea that Stalin killed as many, or more people as Hitler. I urge you to read some real history. I have family in Ukraine. Two male members were young men, and drafted into the army. Nothing has been heard from them since the invasion. They are probably dead! They were not corrupt, nor are most of the Ukrainian people. They are very hard working, and have come a long way in creating an educated society, and maintaining Europe's bread basket.

And if the Ukrainian leaders are corrupt, I can only point to Biden and Trudeau as equally, or even more corrupt. The whole WEF agenda has invaded our countries, I cannot imagine anything more evil and corrupt today. They are the ones using Ukraine, not vice versa. Real people, real families & my family live in Ukraine. I'm glad that we are supporting Ukraine in Canada. I really detest Trudeau, but for once he is doing the right thing! It's hard in my mind to agree with anything he says. He is arrogant, corrupt, and a narcissist. But, I hope he keeps on helping Ukraine, until my people are free from the horrors of Putin and his invasion!
 
ZNP

ZNP

Well-known member
#17
Sep 14, 2020
36,778
6,742
113
#17
Angela53510 said:
As someone whose grandparents' homeland was Ukraine, I see Putin and his Russian invasion as genocide. Putin admires "Stalin." Stalin murdered 8-10 million Ukrainians, Jews, gypsies, etc in the Holomodor in 1932-33. He stole every bit of food the peasants had, and starved them to death. People were eating grass and frogs. Stalin was back at it again ini 1937-38, and my great grandfather was killed at that time!

I know many Ukrainian people with family in Ukraine, and some still have letters dating back to those massacres, telling about the depravity of the Russians, and the unusual cruelty of the murderers during those periods of time. Further, Hitler and Stalin were great friends, until Hitler invaded Russia. Stalin taught Hitler everything about being a cruel, mad dictator. Stalin is the man Putin admires! Doesn't say much about Putin! Or communists! (But then, we already knew about them!)

I am reading a book called "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin" by Timothy Snyder. A Ukrainian history professor, Snyder documents what happened in the 1930's. Yet most people in the western world have no idea that Stalin killed as many, or more people as Hitler. I urge you to read some real history. I have family in Ukraine. Two male members were young men, and drafted into the army. Nothing has been heard from them since the invasion. They are probably dead! They were not corrupt, nor are most of the Ukrainian people. They are very hard working, and have come a long way in creating an educated society, and maintaining Europe's bread basket.

And if the Ukrainian leaders are corrupt, I can only point to Biden and Trudeau as equally, or even more corrupt. The whole WEF agenda has invaded our countries, I cannot imagine anything more evil and corrupt today. They are the ones using Ukraine, not vice versa. Real people, real families & my family live in Ukraine. I'm glad that we are supporting Ukraine in Canada. I really detest Trudeau, but for once he is doing the right thing! It's hard in my mind to agree with anything he says. He is arrogant, corrupt, and a narcissist. But, I hope he keeps on helping Ukraine, until my people are free from the horrors of Putin and his invasion!
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Yes, this is why I think comparing these world leaders to cartels or drug lords or mafiosos is appropriate. Hitler was evil, so was Stalin, Putin is evil, so is Zelensky, so is NATO, so is Biden. Many people hated Trump because they said he sounded like a thug. The leaders are all thugs who can put up a front of being dignified and polite.
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

Well-known member
#18
Jan 16, 2021
6,235
2,529
113
#18
Angela53510 said:
As someone whose grandparents' homeland was Ukraine, I see Putin and his Russian invasion as genocide. Putin admires "Stalin." Stalin murdered 8-10 million Ukrainians, Jews, gypsies, etc in the Holomodor in 1932-33. He stole every bit of food the peasants had, and starved them to death. People were eating grass and frogs. Stalin was back at it again ini 1937-38, and my great grandfather was killed at that time!

I know many Ukrainian people with family in Ukraine, and some still have letters dating back to those massacres, telling about the depravity of the Russians, and the unusual cruelty of the murderers during those periods of time. Further, Hitler and Stalin were great friends, until Hitler invaded Russia. Stalin taught Hitler everything about being a cruel, mad dictator. Stalin is the man Putin admires! Doesn't say much about Putin! Or communists! (But then, we already knew about them!)

I am reading a book called "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin" by Timothy Snyder. A Ukrainian history professor, Snyder documents what happened in the 1930's. Yet most people in the western world have no idea that Stalin killed as many, or more people as Hitler. I urge you to read some real history. I have family in Ukraine. Two male members were young men, and drafted into the army. Nothing has been heard from them since the invasion. They are probably dead! They were not corrupt, nor are most of the Ukrainian people. They are very hard working, and have come a long way in creating an educated society, and maintaining Europe's bread basket.

And if the Ukrainian leaders are corrupt, I can only point to Biden and Trudeau as equally, or even more corrupt. The whole WEF agenda has invaded our countries, I cannot imagine anything more evil and corrupt today. They are the ones using Ukraine, not vice versa. Real people, real families & my family live in Ukraine. I'm glad that we are supporting Ukraine in Canada. I really detest Trudeau, but for once he is doing the right thing! It's hard in my mind to agree with anything he says. He is arrogant, corrupt, and a narcissist. But, I hope he keeps on helping Ukraine, until my people are free from the horrors of Putin and his invasion!
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Thanks Angela.
You are correct that Russia is wrong in the conflict...conscription is basically slavery no matter what shade of lipstick you put on it.
And you are correct with that the other wealthy nations did use Ukraine to perform all sorts of dirty, illegal deeds. (One reason why Putin invaded) Currently it's being used as a laundromat for illegally obtained wealth that cannot enter the monetary system in any other way. (Sex slaves, bribes, piracy and narcotics)

The average person in Ukraine is innocent in this stuff...they are just trying to make a life for themselves. But the leadership made many incompetent and often self-serving choices. Their corruption level was high and affecting many global commodity markets. Zalinski was doing his best to clean up the Government...but it's not as easy done as said. Compromises were made because it is impossible to do without cooperation. Of course Putin is finger pointing the whole way to try and elevate his low moral position and make his ideals of the former USSR necessary.

Putin is not Stalin...Putin might idolize him but he hasn't committed those sorts of atrocities yet.
 
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