Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[ForestGreenCook]

Spirit is Redeemed from the element of the Curse that includes the Sinful Nature. The Holy Purpose of Christ is to Redeem us, or separate us from that Curse

The only way that we get rid of our sinful nature is when we die a natural death God's children do, at times, yield their bodies to the temptations of this world. When that happens, they lose their fellowship with God, temporary, until they repent. God will not fellowship sin, even turning his back on his Son during the three hours that he bore the sins of those that his Father gave him.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Day 287 of the timeline, chronological reading plan, clearly outlines Scripture that deals specifically with the doctrine of Illumination. Matthew 13:11-17, the Words of Jesus, reads as follows:

NLT – “He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. 12 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them. 13 That is why I use these parables, For they look, but they don't really see. They hear, but they don't really listen or understand. 14 This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah that says, 'When you hear what I say, you will not understand. When you see what I do, you will not comprehend. 15 For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes--so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but they didn't see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn't hear it.”

Above, our Lord and Savior was Clearly describing His Illuminating Ways and how this phenomenon works. First, verse 11 tells us that certain people are “permitted” to Understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven. So, in other words, certain people are placed into a “Group Policy” that grants Understanding regarding specific information that the Lord desires that one would have. Therefore, if a person is not “permitted” to Understand, if they are [not] placed into the “Group Policy,” they will not and cannot Turn to the Lord, just as verse 15 clearly states . . . “their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me.” Quite literally, a person is incapable of Turning to Christ unless he or she has been brought from Spiritual death to Spiritual Life, which is done through Spiritual Circumcision as clearly described in Colossians 2:9-15. A person must be removed from the Spiritual “Group Policy” that applies to the Curse of God. When a person is taken out of Spiritual “Deep Sleep” (which equates to the Sinful Nature), they are set free and can begin to think and behave in Righteous ways representing a complete, well-balanced Mind of Christ. But until then, and according to the image Paul paints below of how the Sinful Nature works, a person will remain Spiritually blind and deaf.

Romans 11:8 NLT – “As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

The Purpose of Christ is to Redeem us from the Curse of the Lord. The Work of Christ does just that; it separates, Enables, grants, and even pays the debt for our sins so that we would be made Right with Father God.

Romans 5:12, 15-21 NLT - 12 “When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. “... 15 “But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but God's free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Yes, Adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. 19 Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous. 20 God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful grace became more abundant. 21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

What does it mean to “live in triumph” over sin and death? Does it seem reasonable that a person who has triumphed over sin and evil would continue to frequent prostitutes? Would they continue to beat their wife and children? Would they continue their substance abuse? Would they continue their sexual prowess with many lovers? Would they continue to curse, swear, and speak like the world? Or, does a person who has “triumphed over sin” undergo the process of Sanctification . . . a Holy Transformation that comes by way of Renewal of the Mind?

Romans 12:2 NLT – “Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.”

Having been Spiritually drawn by the Spirit, a person is first Circumcised by Christ, then Enabled to Turn to God, Repent, and accept the gift of the Holy Spirit. When a person is released from the Curse by the Hands of Christ, they will naturally gravitate toward their new Master, their Illuminating Christ. There will be no other choice to make once a person has been gifted Holy Illumination . . . they [will] respond to Christ. Further, this is the very Promise that was Mysteriously discussed in Genesis chapter 17. The Promise is that of a Circumcised Heart so that Jews and Gentiles alike will share in the Promised Holy Land (Heaven). It is the Circumcision of Christ that breaks down the wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile, for this Purity that only comes from Christ is what establishes the Righteous and Holy from the evil and degenerate. There are two groups of thinking in this world . . . those with the mind of the Devil and those with the Mind of Christ. The two think and operate in two completely distinct ways.

If this is True, then “free will” is . . . at best . . . limited. But again, story after story shows that God is leading, guiding, and directing all creation down a precisely detailed pre-written Plan, written in the Heavenly Scroll of the Lord.

As I began collecting and organizing these passages that at least seem to have an impact on the understanding of “free will,” I was forced to accept they these stories were real and that the building number of them all was overwhelming. I don’t recall at what point, but I did eventually cave into the fact that there is so much Biblical evidence that this is what the Bible centers around . . . the controlling Force of God as He uses all of His creation as a way to demonstrate His Almighty Power over all. In other words, God told of what He would do here on earth, and He is doing it . . . perfectly.

Free will? Well, we’re all entitled to believe what is in our hearts, yet I will always say that God is in control of my life and not the other way around. I’d be constantly unnerved if I felt alone and apart from God and felt like I was in total control. No, I much prefer to be aware that God is in control of my desire to be in control.

Those that have been revealed, by the Holy Spirit, God's righteousness in giving them the knowledge of exactly what his Son accomplished on the cross, are referred to as the REMNANT of the household of Israel/Jacob.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The only way that we get rid of our sinful nature is when we die a natural death

That isn't what the Bible says about Spiritual Circumcision. But, this thread is about "free will," so I'll reserve my time for that concept.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 291 of the timeline, chronological reading plan places into our laps the remarkable concept: no one can come to the Lord unless he draws them. John 6:44-45 and 65 reads as follows:

NKJV - 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” ... 65 “And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

The message seems pretty straightforward. No one can choose to come to the Lord on their own, but they must be drawn by Him Specifically, and those who are taught directly by Him [will] go to Him. If the only way to the Father is through being drawn by the Spirit, then where does this concept of “free will” come into play? Many verses refer to our choosing between good and evil, yet I will hold to the passages above, which establish that God is in control of my life rather than myself.

If we consider ALL of Scripture regarding this concept of “free will,” it seems fair to suggest that select humans are chosen to be Enabled to “choose” Christ.

1 Timothy 1:12-13 NKJV – “And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.”

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NLT – “It is God who enables us, along with you, to stand firm for Christ. He has commissioned us, and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.”

2 Corinthians 3:6 NLT – “He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.”

Colossians 1:11-12 NLT – “We also pray that you will be strengthened with all his glorious power so you will have all the endurance and patience you need. May you be filled with joy, always thanking the Father. He has enabled you to share in the inheritance that belongs to his people, who live in the light.”

2 Thessalonians 1:11 NLT – “So we keep on praying for you, asking our God to enable you to live a life worthy of his call. May he give you the power to accomplish all the good things your faith prompts you to do.”

2 Peter 1:4 NLT – “And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world's corruption caused by human desires.”

Perhaps I am influenced by the NLT, as I do reference that translation more often than others. However, the idea of being Enabled to respond to the Lord and His call runs with the core Biblical context . . . Circumcision of the Heart. To be Spiritually Circumcised of the evil Curse that stems from Adam and Eve, that person has been Enabled or preserved to a Pure status qualifiable to God through His Son, Jesus.

So for those who believe that they are in control rather than God being in control . . . do you struggle with the above-quoted passages that deal with being Enabled? Being Enabled by God is not of human will power or might, but it comes by the Will of God Himself, that He should choose whomever He desires.

Exodus 33:19 KJV – “And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.”

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Shame on me . . . I should have added verse 63 to the passage set above.

John 6:63 NLT - "The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

We cannot choose our way into a Right relationship with God, for this would consist of some kind of work, or effort which would be thought to believe that this effort would contribute to the acquisition of Eternal Life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Shame on me . . . I should have added verse 63 to the passage set above.

John 6:63 NLT - "The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

We cannot choose our way into a Right relationship with God, for this would consist of some kind of work

Oh yes we do. When God offers the gift of salvation on the basis of trusting in the work of His Son, that it a choice; whether to believe or trust in what God says or not. You are kidding yourself.

Regarding "some kind of work", when does trusting in someone earn you a living? That's what work does, according to Paul in Rom 4:4,5.

yet, you Calvinists think Paul was a Calvinist. Not even close.

or effort which would be thought to believe that this effort would contribute to the acquisition of Eternal Life.

Effort and work in the biblical sense aren't related.

In the Bible, work EARNS you something, like a paycheck. Effort earns you some sweat. See the difference?

btw, how much to you sweat when you think. Think about it.

Trusting is thinking. Believing is thinking. If it's effort to you, then so be it. But it earns you nothing.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That isn't what the Bible says about Spiritual Circumcision. But, this thread is about "free will," so I'll reserve my time for that concept.

Free will is given, to his adopted children, by God, along with his instructions as to how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth, however, their eternal deliverance was determined by God's sovereign grace, without man's choice being involved, and that took place on the cross.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Day 291 of the timeline, chronological reading plan places into our laps the remarkable concept: no one can come to the Lord unless he draws them. John 6:44-45 and 65 reads as follows:

NKJV - 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” ... 65 “And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

The message seems pretty straightforward. No one can choose to come to the Lord on their own, but they must be drawn by Him Specifically, and those who are taught directly by Him [will] go to Him. If the only way to the Father is through being drawn by the Spirit, then where does this concept of “free will” come into play? Many verses refer to our choosing between good and evil, yet I will hold to the passages above, which establish that God is in control of my life rather than myself.

If we consider ALL of Scripture regarding this concept of “free will,” it seems fair to suggest that select humans are chosen to be Enabled to “choose” Christ.

1 Timothy 1:12-13 NKJV – “And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.”

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 NLT – “It is God who enables us, along with you, to stand firm for Christ. He has commissioned us, and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.”

2 Corinthians 3:6 NLT – “He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.”

Colossians 1:11-12 NLT – “We also pray that you will be strengthened with all his glorious power so you will have all the endurance and patience you need. May you be filled with joy, always thanking the Father. He has enabled you to share in the inheritance that belongs to his people, who live in the light.”

2 Thessalonians 1:11 NLT – “So we keep on praying for you, asking our God to enable you to live a life worthy of his call. May he give you the power to accomplish all the good things your faith prompts you to do.”

2 Peter 1:4 NLT – “And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world's corruption caused by human desires.”

Perhaps I am influenced by the NLT, as I do reference that translation more often than others. However, the idea of being Enabled to respond to the Lord and His call runs with the core Biblical context . . . Circumcision of the Heart. To be Spiritually Circumcised of the evil Curse that stems from Adam and Eve, that person has been Enabled or preserved to a Pure status qualifiable to God through His Son, Jesus.

So for those who believe that they are in control rather than God being in control . . . do you struggle with the above-quoted passages that deal with being Enabled? Being Enabled by God is not of human will power or might, but it comes by the Will of God Himself, that He should choose whomever He desires.

Exodus 33:19 KJV – “And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.”

I am in agreement with your last reference, but all of your other references are distorted so much by the NLT that they portray the exact opposite of the KJV. The NLT has inserted man's ability to deliver himself by his own choices, which takes God's grace out of the picture.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Shame on me . . . I should have added verse 63 to the passage set above.

John 6:63 NLT - "The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

We cannot choose our way into a Right relationship with God, for this would consist of some kind of work, or effort which would be thought to believe that this effort would contribute to the acquisition of Eternal Life.

Then why did you post all of the other scriptures from NLT that gives man the ability to take part in his eternal deliverance?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then why did you post all of the other scriptures from NLT that gives man the ability to take part in his eternal deliverance?

If a man is drowning and a lifeguard goes out in a boat and throws a lifebuoy to the drowning man, do you believe the drowning man "took part in his rescue (sozo)" if he grabs onto the lifebuoy and holds on for dear life while the lifeguard pulls the drowning man to safety and can take credit for saving himself from drowning?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If a man is drowning and a lifeguard goes out in a boat and throws a lifebuoy to the drowning man, do you believe the drowning man "took part in his rescue (sozo)" if he grabs onto the lifebuoy and holds on for dear life while the lifeguard pulls the drowning man to safety and can take credit for saving himself from drowning?

I had made up my mind not to converse with you because of your pride and your not being open minded to even consider an alternative thought to your preconceived ideas, but your example is false from the get-go.

The unregenerate person is not on his way to dying, but is already DEAD in his sins. A dead person will not catch hold of anything. Your interpretation of Eph 2 is way off base in your attempt to allow the unregenerate person who is dead in sins to be able to have a say in his eternal deliverance.

God "quickens" the dead to live.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
If a man is drowning and a lifeguard goes out in a boat and throws a lifebuoy to the drowning man, do you believe the drowning man "took part in his rescue (sozo)" if he grabs onto the lifebuoy and holds on for dear life while the lifeguard pulls the drowning man to safety and can take credit for saving himself from drowning?

I had made up my mind not to converse with you because of your pride and your not being open minded to even consider an alternative thought to your preconceived ideas

My ideas are not "pre-conceived" but conceived from Scripture. I can quote verses that actually SAY what I believe. Can you? No.

As to what you see as "pride" is really just confidence, because my conceived ideas are straight from Scripture, which says what I believe.

Of course I'm confident when my views are clearly articulated in the Bible.

but your example is false from the get-go.

OK, let's see how you explain this.

The unregenerate person is not on his way to dying, but is already DEAD in his sins. A dead person will not catch hold of anything. Your interpretation of Eph 2 is way off base in your attempt to allow the unregenerate person who is dead in sins to be able to have a say in his eternal deliverance.

OK, here is your error. Spiritual death isn't even close to physical death. That's just one of the problems of the reformed. You equate the 2 as the same. They aren't.

Everyone is born physically ALIVE and spiritually DEAD. So the person CAN function, CAN think, and CAN decide things. Unlike a physically dead body. Which can't. So, if you are really open minded, you will agree with me. But I doubt you will be open minded.

God "quickens" the dead to live.

If you think that God "quickens" spiritually dead people so that they can believe, you are quote wrong.

Eph 2:5 equates regeneration with being saved.

made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

It is obvious that the bolded words at the beginning and end of the sentence are synonymous.

They go together. There are NO verses that show one before the other.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

This verse SAYS that salvation (and therefore regeneration) are through faith. That means faith precedes both of them.

This is irrefutable.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I am in agreement with your last reference, but all of your other references are distorted so much by the NLT that they portray the exact opposite of the KJV.

Could you give me an example of how the NLT is the exact opposite of the KJV? Thanks.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Then why did you post all of the other scriptures from NLT that gives man the ability to take part in his eternal deliverance?

Say what? You must be referring to someone else.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 292 of the timeline, chronological reading plan shows us but another remarkable piece of Truth regarding the way our minds think. Mark 7:21-23 reads as follows:

NKJV - "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

What is it that is cut out and removed from the unregenerate heart of a person? Yes, these passages tell us exactly what is permanently removed . . . these elements represent the bulk of the Sinful Nature.

When these remarkable and evil descriptions are removed from the mind of a person, the very way and structure in which their minds function and operate changes completely. When these evil elements are cut out and removed, and subsequently replaced with the new Laws of the Spirit of Life, the way a person's mind functions will change. If this is true, then what does this say about "free will" both in the time prior to a change of thinking and after that change of thinking?

If it is the evil infected heart of an unregenerate person, what happens to person when they receive the Circumcision of Christ?

Galatians 5:22-24 NLT – “But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things! Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there.”

Who is responsible for this change of thinking? Is it “self” and our “free will” to choose, or is it the Spirit of God who produces this Mind of Christ?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 296 of the timeline, chronological reading plan shows us plainly what the problem is that we humans are dealing with. We were born with Spiritual Blindness. Spiritually, we are born without legs. Spiritually, our ears are closed shut. We are Spiritually, blind, lame, and deaf. To be Redeemed of this overarching problem that engulfs a human, we must be “Known” by Christ. We must belong to Him; we must be one of His Elect.

John 8:33-47 NLT - "But we are descendants of Abraham," they said. "We have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean, 'You will be set free'?" 34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin. 35 A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son is part of the family forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you are truly free. 37 Yes, I realize that you are descendants of Abraham. And yet some of you are trying to kill me because there's no room in your hearts for my message. 38 I am telling you what I saw when I was with my Father. But you are following the advice of your father." 39 "Our father is Abraham!" they declared. "No," Jesus replied, "for if you were really the children of Abraham, you would follow his example. 40 Instead, you are trying to kill me because I told you the truth, which I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41 No, you are imitating your real father." They replied, "We aren't illegitimate children! God himself is our true Father." 42 Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me. 43 Why can't you understand what I am saying? It's because you can't even hear me! 44 For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don't believe me! 46 Which of you can truthfully accuse me of sin? And since I am telling you the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don't listen because you don't belong to God."

Think about it: All of the highlighted pieces of Scripture, when considering them, all have an impact upon the way a person thinks and behaves.

In the above story, the Jews were stripped of their ability to “choose” to believe in Christ, were they not? Above, the Jews were unable to comprehend what Jesus was saying because, as Jesus said Himself, “you are unable to understand,” meaning that to actually understand, they would need to be enabled . . . their minds would need to be group-enabled so that they could instantly understand the simple Words of Christ. Obviously, that which is “unable” must be “enabled” to accomplish general expectations. How is this “free will” for the Jews? Were they not merely doing what their Father would desire that they do . . . to kill Jesus? Did they really make this decision to kill Christ from their own volition, their own sense of “free will”? Or were they doing the evil will of their Father, the Devil? Where is there any form of “freedom” in the above story?

Imagine Jesus looking at you and saying, “you belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires.” – Jesus spoke these very Words to the Jews, and shortly after Christ spoke them, the Jews attempted to kill Him by stoning. But let’s back up a bit . . . what does it mean to have a Spiritual Father? The implications are this: depending upon which Father a person has, either God the Father or Satan as Father, that person will, from the core of their heart, do the Will of their Father. As for the Jews, were they not also guilty of doing what their Spiritual Father would desire that they do . . . which was to kill the Seed of Christ, and especially Christ Himself? Were the Jews themselves actually guilty, or were they merely doing as their Spiritual Father, Satan, desired that they do? Were they not obeying their Father? Of course, they were. Thus, they were proven to be children of the Devil (at least at that moment in time). They were not True Descendants of Abraham, for if they were, their hearts would have been Spiritually Circumcised and their lives would have changed to reflect the new Nature having been imparted by Christ Himself.

But think about it: Is it possible that what we have, here, is a classic example of what Paul was referring to in Romans chapter 7, when he wrote the following about the controlling ways Satan?

Romans 7:17, 20 NIV - 17 “As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.” ... 20 “Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it”.

Paul was referring to his old, untransformed life of being a Christian persecutor. Below, we will find that Paul admitted that he did the things he did because of unbelief (in Christ). Well, doesn’t that sound like the Jews, who in the above story, were about to stone Jesus for no good reason?

1 Timothy 1:13 NIV – “Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.”

Question: Can’t we view the Blessed Jews in the same way that Paul viewed himself, which is that the Sinful Nature was responsible for his sin, and not himself? And so we will do just that by stating that the Sinful Nature caused the Jews to be unable to understand the Plan and Story of Christ. It was the influencing Sinful Nature that fueled the murder of Christ. When the Father of these Jews worked within their minds to conspire and kill Jesus . . . they obeyed. But the truth is that the Jews were Spiritually trapped, were they not? In fact, they were held captive to do Satan’s will (confirmed in the Scripture below). All people who live under the Adamic Curse are within this same Spiritual trap; none can escape that trap except through the Redeeming release of Christ. Jesus is the one who releases a person from the Powerful Curse of the Lord.

2 Timothy 2:26 NLT – “Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.”

The options above in response to the Devil don’t seem to include disobedience. Verse 26 above seems clear, which is that a person held captive by the Devil is held captive specifically to perform for him and his evil agenda. There is a Spiritual influence and guidance that takes place within Spiritual Fatherhood. Those who possess God the Father as their Spiritual Father behave in ways that Honor and exemplify Him. Those who possess Satan as their Spiritual Father, may appear to be Righteous, Holy, and Pure on the outside, but during alone time, a second more hypocritical person comes out and does and says things that would shock their friends and family. Or, they may just be openly and blatantly evil.

Spiritual Fatherhood and Sonship . . . I don’t see a True sense of “free will” within this particular design of existence, nor can there be. What I clearly see the Bible expressing is that our options and choices are restricted in ways that move us along a pre-written Plan to become exactly who God would have us become. Think about this: if “change” in a person’s life came from the direct result of simply making a choice, then we would have something to boast about. However, if we Submit to God, then we should have no problem saying that we have surrendered and that God now controls our lives. Or, perhaps I am confused in thinking that today’s “Christian” still surrenders their all to Him.

“All to Jesus I surrender
All to Him I freely give
I will ever love and trust Him
In His presence daily live

I surrender all
I surrender all
All to Thee
My blessed Savior
I surrender all”

Wouldn’t we all say that we have surrendered our all to Him? Yet the vast majority here would say that they are in control of their lives, and not their Spiritual Father. Have we really granted the Lord ownership over our lives? Have we really given up control?

Jeremiah 10:23 NET – “LORD, we know that people do not control their own destiny. It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them.”

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I had made up my mind not to converse with you because of your pride and your not being open minded to even consider an alternative thought to your preconceived ideas, but your example is false from the get-go.

The unregenerate person is not on his way to dying, but is already DEAD in his sins. A dead person will not catch hold of anything. Your interpretation of Eph 2 is way off base in your attempt to allow the unregenerate person who is dead in sins to be able to have a say in his eternal deliverance.

God "quickens" the dead to live.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

This verse SAYS that salvation (and therefore regeneration) are through faith. That means faith precedes both of them.

And you think that the faith in Eph 2:8 is your faith, even though it plainly says this is not of yourself. The faith in this verse is Jesus faith (Gal 2:16). Any requirement from mankind to obtain eternal salvation is to be considered a work of mankind, but of course, eternal salvation by works is what you, falsely, think that the scriptures teach.

The Holy Spirit indwells a person when he is born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22). The unregenerate person only has spiritual faith after they have been born spiritually. Before a person is born again, they only have faith in mankind and their accomplishments.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

This verse SAYS that salvation (and therefore regeneration) are through faith. That means faith precedes both of them.

And you think that the faith in Eph 2:8 is your faith

The man who wrote Eph 2:8 is the SAME MAN who wrote Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

And Paul was consistent in all his writings. So YES, Eph 2:8 about YOUR faith.

even though it plainly says this is not of yourself.

That phrase isn't about "faith" but "salvation".

The faith in this verse is Jesus faith (Gal 2:16).

That is merely your own opinion. If you read all the available translations on biblehub.com you will see that as many translate the verse with "faith of Jesus" as "faith in Jesus". So, are you the Greek expert or something?

Anyway, Rom 10:10 refutes your thinking.

Any requirement from mankind to obtain eternal salvation is to be considered a work of mankind, but of course, eternal salvation by works is what you, falsely, think that the scriptures teach.

Aren't you aware of John 6:29? And why Jesus said what he did?

The Holy Spirit indwells a person when he is born again.

Correct.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22).

OK, please explain how to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" per Eph 5:18. It is in the imperative mood, the mood of COMMAND! How does one obey that specific command?

Most evangelicals have been very poorly taught and think once saved, fruit will automatically be produced. Not so.

In your explanation, keep in mind the command to NOT "grieve the Spirit" per Eph 4:30 and NOT "quench the Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19.

iow, believers are not only able to do these things, they DO them. And Paul tells us not to do them.

Looking forward to your explanation.

The unregenerate person only has spiritual faith after they have been born spiritually.

Is there a verse that teaches this clearly?

regeneration follows faith. We know this from Eph 2:5 where Paul equates "being made alive" (regeneration) with "being saved". They are synonymous. Then, in v.8 Paul said we are saved by GRACE through faith.

This means that salvation is THROUGH faith. iow, the faith must be there before salvation, and from v.5 regenerationn.

So salvation/regeneration are through faith. Faith precedes them both.

Before a person is born again, they only have faith in mankind and their accomplishments.

Paul said man "believes from his heart". His own heart. And those who believe are saved.

You have been confused, and possibly, deceived by Calvinism. They cannot support their claims from the Bible.

If you know more than them, please share what you have that supports their claims. They are unable to do it.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Huh . . . and to think that I believed the Bible when it clearly states that Christ is the author and perfecter of our Faith.

Hebrews 12:2 HNV - ". . . looking to Yeshua, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 297 of the chronological, timeline reading plan once again shows us the doctrine of Illumination. This specific passage we have referenced it many times throughout the course of these posts. John 9:39-41 reads as follows:

NLT – “Then Jesus told him, "I entered this world to render judgment--to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, "Are you saying we're blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see.”

In other words, the Purpose of Christ is to straighten out our hearts and minds . . . to get them to think and operate according to the Spirit. These three verses disclose the very problem that humanity faces, and that issue is that though we do not believe that we are Spiritually asleep, the fact is that most are just that . . . Spiritually asleep. We [think] that we are in total control over ourselves, but those who remain under the captivity of the Devil, are most likely utterly clueless that they belong to the group of people whom Jesus said:

Matthew 7:22-23 CSB - "On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, and do many miracles in your name?’ "Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you lawbreakers!”

Therefore, we can determine that those who were told, “Get away from me. I never knew you,” are folks whom Jesus had not given eyes to see, ears to hear, or legs to walk. The passages from John above tell us exactly to whom these passages were referring, and they would be the Pharisees. In general, the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the Law are all lumped together in terms of not believing in Christ and conspiring against Him and His Faith. Why couldn’t these leaders Spiritually Understand? Because God has an Eternal, Almighty Plan that He is both following and executing. The Lord is proving His Power to those Rulers and Authorities in the Heavenly Realms.

And this is the core of what we should all hope for, which is that Christ would regenerate our hearts. To know that this Operation of Faith has been completed, True Christians will begin to produce Fruits for which the Holy Spirit accepts responsibility. We do not take credit for any Spiritual Fruit in our lives, but we are to grant credit to the Effective Laws of the Spirit of Life. We must be changed!

So, if we cannot change ourselves outside of the Power of God, how could anyone claim that we are free to choose (who we are) as we please? The Bible clearly states that even our ability to choose to become a good person will never be enough to accomplish the task. Our limited human power and ability to direct the flow of one’s life is not enough to compete with the Power and Plan of God.

Psalm 138:8 NLT – “The LORD will work out his plans for my life--for your faithful love, O LORD, endures forever. Don't abandon me, for you made me.”