Poll of polls on the longest running debate:

[SomeDisciple]

Your trying to compair a finite amount (a million dollars) with an infinite amount (eternal life)

What matters is if you earned it or not. I made no presumption about or even a reference to spending the gift. The nature of the gift is irrelevant for the purpose of what I am saying. Go tell someone you "earned" the gift they gave you just because you didn't throw it away. They will think that's crazy, because it is- you keeping it doesn't mean it wasn't given to you and that it wasn't a gift you didn't earn.

ripped out of context how

Because John isn't making a blanket statement about apostasy in 1John2. This is completely different subject. Yes, there were people that went out from them, but never were of them: but that's not the same as someone who stops believing. He's talking about specific people that went out and were made manifest for what they really were; but someone who stops believing won't necessarily be made manifest in this way, or be made manifest at all. You don't even have to have ever been with the church to deny Jesus is the Christ and that is still anti-christ: anti-christs being the actual topic at hand, and not apostates. John Says "I have written these things concerning those who are trying to deceive you". So, again, he's not making a blanket statement about people who fall away from the faith- he is talking about specific people.

And the promise God made based on that cross.

Here's that promise, and where it applies:
As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.

 

[ResidentAlien]

1 John 2:19 isn't saying they were never truly born again. It means they didn't have the same level of commitment. They started but didn't finish. Unfortunately this verse has been completely misunderstood by well-meaning people.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

"for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica—Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia." 2 Timothy 4:10

 

[PennEd]

but when you choose to follow Christ, you do not lose your free will.

now, i am not talking about a believer who is struggling with sin, i am talking about saying " Jesus, i do not believe in you anymore, i don't think God is even real".

that is walking away from God.

Impossible for a true born again child of God to do what you say here.

I can’t unknow the Truth, because the Holy Spirit has been sealed in me.

We know those that you describe were never born again to begin with because of …..

1 John 2:19
King James Version
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[ResidentAlien]

1 John 2:19
King James Version
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

This verse doesn't mean what you think it means. See my post #142 just above.

 

[PennEd]

1 John 2:19 isn't saying they were never truly born again. It means they didn't have the same level of commitment. They started but didn't finish. Unfortunately this verse has been completely misunderstood by well-meaning people.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

"for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica—Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia." 2 Timothy 4:10

It’s exactly, precisely what the WORD SAYS.

You are twisting it because you know if it means what it says, the whole “ a true born again Child of God can lose their Salvation”
lie, will fall like a house of cards.

 

[ResidentAlien]

It’s exactly, precisely what the WORD SAYS.

No, it doesn't. You don't have to believe me, but don't try to tell me it can only being talking about false converts. It says nothing about false converts, or about not really being born again. That's your interpretation.

 

[SomeDisciple]

I can’t unknow the Truth, because the Holy Spirit has been sealed in me.

So, you're like a holy-spirit Ziploc bag? Is that what it means to be sealed by the spirit?

1John2 is about specific people that trying to deceive the church, and it's not making a blanket statement about apostates. Its a totally different subject.

but don't try to tell me it can only being talking about false converts.

The thing is.. if it is about false-converts specifically, then what it is NOT about, is apostates.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What matters is if you earned it or not. I made no presumption about or even a reference to spending the gift. The nature of the gift is irrelevant for the purpose of what I am saying. Go tell someone you "earned" the gift they gave you just because you didn't throw it away. They will think that's crazy, because it is- you keeping it doesn't mean it wasn't given to you and that it wasn't a gift you didn't earn.

You missed the point completely!

Because John isn't making a blanket statement about apostasy in 1John2. This is completely different subject. Yes, there were people that went out from them, but never were of them: but that's not the same as someone who stops believing. He's talking about specific people that went out and were made manifest for what they really were; but someone who stops believing won't necessarily be made manifest in this way, or be made manifest at all. You don't even have to have ever been with the church to deny Jesus is the Christ and that is still anti-christ: anti-christs being the actual topic at hand, and not apostates. John Says "I have written these things concerning those who are trying to deceive you". So, again, he's not making a blanket statement about people who fall away from the faith- he is talking about specific people.

1. He calls them antichrist (against christ)
2. He said they now deny the son
3. He said as apposed to them, we have the anointing, and we know all things.

sorry my friend. Your wrong. He is specifically talking af someone who CLAIMED to believe, and now REJECT christ.

Here's that promise, and where it applies:
As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.

Amd john said WE HAVE IT. And it is this knowledge that we KNOW WE HAVE it that enables us to keep believing

a person who stops beldiving never thought they had eternal life To begin with. Its why they leave. Because they never truly felt Gods love. Because they were never saved, they never truly believed.

 

[ResidentAlien]

The thing is.. if it is about false-converts specifically, then what it is NOT about, is apostates.

Well, it has to be either/or. It's not entirely clear what it means; it's a matter of interpretation.

 

[SomeDisciple]

You missed the point completely!

It was my point to begin with. You were saying that it was to "earn salvation". It's not.

1. He calls them antichrist (against christ)

Exactly, because this is not about apostasy. It's about anti-christs.

2. He said they now deny the son

He never said they professed to believe in the son in the first place. He said "they went out from us".

He said as apposed to them, we have the anointing, and we know all things.

Yes.

. He is specifically talking af someone who CLAIMED to believe, and now REJECT christ.

It doesn't say that- and even if it did, it still is not addressing apostasy. It is specifically addressing these people and is not a blanket statement saying "IF SOMEONE FALLS AWAY, THEY NEVER BELIEVED" that's not what it says, because it doesn't even refer to people falling away in the first place. It is talking about anti-christs and not apostates.

it that enables us to keep believing

It does enable us to keep believing. But does it automate your belief, like you are saying?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It was my point to begin with. You were saying that it was to "earn salvation". It's not.

If your enduring to keep saved, Your earning salvation.

Deny it all you want..

Exactly, because this is not about apostasy. It's about anti-christs.

An apostate is an ANTICHRIST.

They DENY JESUS/

He never said they professed to believe in the son in the first place. He said "they went out from us".

If they were among us, then they must have said they believed. A non believer is not part of us..

Yes.

yes.

It doesn't say that- and even if it did, it still is not addressing apostasy. It is specifically addressing these people and is not a blanket statement saying "IF SOMEONE FALLS AWAY, THEY NEVER BELIEVED" that's not what it says, because it doesn't even refer to people falling away in the first place. It is talking about anti-christs and not apostates.

It does enable us to keep believing. But does it automate your belief, like you are saying?

My friend. A PERSON WHO REJECTS CHRIST IS A NON BELIEVER, he Denys christ, and as such is an antichrist.

 

[oyster67]

This is in effect earning your salvation.

Not.

It does not say you have to keep enduring.

Does.


Matthew 24:13
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

 

[SomeDisciple]

If your enduring to keep saved, Your earning salvation.

By your reckoning... which is without scriptural basis, or even sound reasoning. You certainly aren't going to be saved if your faith doesn't endure, and we would not be told to endure if we had no part in it, even if your faith enduring is... by faith.

If they were among us, then they must have said they believed. A non believer is not part of us..

It doesn't say they professed to believe, or that they were part of the church. It says their departure (not apostasia)made it clear they were not believers. You can be with a teacher of the gospel for some time, learning the doctrines and beliefs of the church before you decide you don't believe and "go out from them". If you depart from there, and go around to other churches denying Jesus trying to deceive people, guess what- that will reveal you didn't believe what they taught.

An apostate is an ANTICHRIST.
They DENY JESUS/

Not every apostate goes out from the church, though. and they don't all openly deny Jesus, and they don't necessarily go around as false teachers either. That is what these anti-christs were doing. You can see that is what he is talking about and not people that simply left the faith and went about minding their own business.

My friend. A PERSON WHO REJECTS CHRIST IS A NON BELIEVER, he Denys christ, and as such is an antichrist.

Again, it's not a blanket statement. Even if someone who leaves the faith is an anti-christ: that's not what verse 19 is about. It's about specific people that were going around to deceive the church. THOSE people went out from the church (a physical departure not "apostasia"). THEIR departure made it clear they did not believe. That's all it says. He is talking about something that actually happened, he's not making a principle out of it.

There's nowhere in the bible where the apostles are like "HEY GUYS DON'T CONCERN YOURSELF ABOUT BELIEVEING IN JESUS, REMAINING IN CHRIST, DOING GOOD WORKS, WE DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT! GOD DOES IT FOR YOU. Its not there.

 

[CherieR]

I think if someone is saved by God then that person is saved forever. It doesn't make sense to me for God to save someone then unsave someone and then re-save the person. God knows the heart of all people and knows the end from the beginning.

 

[CherieR]

The first option has 'sealed by the Holy Spirit '. Does that mean , those of us who didn't have any experience like the day of Pentecost written in the Bible, we don't have the Holy Spirit?...and thus aren't sealed? Isn't having faith enough? Even without said experiences ? Do i have to be worried that I never spoke in tongues and never had received the Holy Spirit in the way documented in the Bible and also seen people receiving in my Church with them speaking in tongues , even today I saw when people were called to receive the Holy Spirit and they came forward. There was loud shouting and tongues.

You can have the Holy Spirit and never speak in tongues. In the body of Christ, we have different gifting. First Corinthians 12 is a good chapter to read concerning the body of Christ.

 

[PennEd]

Let's talk a minute about this "sealing" of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30
New King James Version
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

This is the same Greek word, 4972. sphragizó, that is used repeatedly in Revelation 5 to describe the seals that NO ONE could open or break.

ONLY Jesus can break the seals.

So Jesus tells us NO ONE can snatch someone (YOU are a someone) out of His and His Father's Hands, and NO ONE can break the seal that the Holy Spirit puts on a born again Child of God.

This is GOOD NEWS!!! Embrace it. Believe it.
For those with fleshly, human, logical minds, this will seem like a license to sin.
But for those walking in the Spirit, this incredible Grace spurs you on to walk and live more earnestly for Christ!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

A person who walks away is against christ. He rejects him, he is an unbeliever, he is antichrist.

John said they were never of us, if they were, they never would have left.

God does not make mistakes

God died for everyone. Paul said in the end times there will be a great "Falling Away." to fall away and become Apostate means you have to have once been a Believer and Follower of God. God made no mistake here because His DEATH was for everyone. those who "Fall Away/become Apostate" do so because they CHOOSE to do it. how you can tie this to make it look like God made a mistake is proof that your Doctrine is full of ERROR. no one, especially myself, made any such claim that people who become Apostate is connected to God making an error. that is you conjecturing due to False Assumption.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Yes you could/ Like the prophet did. But what did he learn. No matter where I go. There you are lord. Who can hide from you?

God is faithful. You can not snatch yourself out of his hands. As any loving father, he would not let you.

why would i want to serve a God who does not let me live according to my Free Will? you must be a Robot!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Jesus references the extraordinary joy that takes place when lost sheep are found but never makes reference to lost sheep not being found.

who found the Prodigal Son?
he came back on his own will.
NO ONE came looking for him.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I think the apostle John 3 answers that question.

They were never of us

While I agree. We still have free will. No one who truly believes in God will ever stop believing completely in him, unless they never truly believed to begin with.

2 Peter Chapter 2

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.