Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[cv5]

What in the world are you talking about? When did I ever say such a thing?

https://christianchat.com/threads/thief-in-the-night-pretrib-or-second-coming.207494/post-4936812

There is "when"....

"@presidente said"
"Don't use bad translations for fine doctrinal points. Actual 'died in the great tribulation' does some bad damage to your pre-trib position on this issue, but real translation say 'come out of.' The 'translation' is doing the interpreting here. What version are you using. "

 

[cv5]

Read the context. This was at the end of the crucifixion.

No. Wrong.

Do you understand that the graves were opened BECAUSE of the earthquake?
And THEN the saints "arose" (g1453).

Matt 27:52-53 (corrected my typo!)
And the graves opened (BECAUSE OF THE EARTHQUAKE of v. 51); and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (g1453).
And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Also understand that v. 53 is commentary inserted after v. 52 logically but not chronologically (in terms of the rest of the passage).
Chronologically it belongs AFTER THE RESURRECTION! Obviously.

 

[cv5]

It is my understanding that they did not go to heaven with Jesus (when He did His "I ascend" that very day, ON FIRSTFRUIT, His resurrection day John 20:17).

I believe that whereas (and while) He went up, the "many" (resurrected OT saints--again "many" not all) entered into the holy city, and appeared to many (Matt27:53).
[this also corresponds with the (overall) "pattern" I referred to earlier in this thread]

Granted the text certainly does not say that these particular "saints" ascended to heaven.

But if they were all of them resurrected OT saints......where in the world did they go post egeirō anyways? They certainly did not hang around on the planet for too long or this would have been recorded.

Furthermore, the text states that they "appeared" emphanizō (g1718). Seem far more like a resurrection to a state like the resurrected Christ than any other possibility IMO.

G1718 - emphanizō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

I think that they MUST have been resurrected to a glorified state and "taken up" (sooner or not much later). If for no other reason than there being few reasonable alternatives.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No. Wrong.

Do you understand that the graves were opened BECAUSE of the earthquake?
And THEN the saints "arose" (g1453).

Matt 27:52-53 (corrected my typo!)
And the graves opened (BECAUSE OF THE EARTHQUAKE of v. 51); and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (g1453).
And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Also understand that v. 53 is commentary inserted after v. 52 logically but not chronologically (in terms of the rest of the passage).
Chronologically it belongs AFTER THE RESURRECTION! Obviously.

None of this matters to the single resurrection at the Second Advent when Jesus comes back with all the saint who have died and gives the dead and living saints at His return glorified bodies.

Nobody gets a resurrection until the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 is clear enough for a gradeschooler to understand.

The words "those who belong to Him" refer to ALL believers from Adam forward.

 

[cv5]

None of this matters to the single resurrection at the Second Advent when Jesus comes back with all the saint who have died and gives the dead and living saints at His return glorified bodies.

Nobody gets a resurrection until the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 is clear enough for a gradeschooler to understand.

The words "those who belong to Him" refer to ALL believers from Adam forward.

You are never going to hack your bogus doctrine into Matt 27:52-53 and Rev 11:11-12 bro. No bueno.

Mat 27:52
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Mat 27:53
and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared (emphanizō g1718) to many.


Rev 11:11
Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

Rev 11:12
And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

 

[DavidTree]

Read the context. This was at the end of the crucifixion.


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The passage goes on to talk about Jesus body being wrapped

59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

It looks really bad if you are sarcastic when you are wrong.

i did not know you are a Genius!!! - awesome!

Here i am, thinking all along you are the President of christianchat,
and
brother CV5 owns 5 CVS stores
and
brother TheDivineWatermark owns a christian themed water park some where in Texas near divine Dallas Seminary
and
i think brother Clayman lives in Pottersville, New York
and
it is impossible (according to the words of the LORD) for the rapture to precede the First Resurrection at His Coming
and
i'm just a lowly father cutting grass under the Tree of Life from which i receive my daily Bread

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
None of this matters to the single resurrection at the Second Advent when Jesus comes back with all the saint who have died and gives the dead and living saints at His return glorified bodies.

Nobody gets a resurrection until the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 is clear enough for a gradeschooler to understand.

The words "those who belong to Him" refer to ALL believers from Adam forward.

You are never going to hack your bogus doctrine into Matt 27:52-53 and Rev 11:11-12 bro.

Unless you explain yourself with actual evidence, there is no reason to believe your claims.

The Bible is very clear about there being ONE resurrection for all the saved, and that resurrection will be at the Second Advent. Gradeschoolers can follow this easily when they see the verses.

Mat 27:52
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Once again, there is NO evidence that any of them received glorified bodies and were taken to heaven. Without evidence for that, your view sinks.

Mat 27:53
and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared (emphanizō g1718) to many.

Ditto here.

Rev 11:11
Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

Yep. They went back to where they had been. Once again, there is NO evidence that either of them recieved glorified bodies.

Rev 11:12
And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Yep. The 2W went right back to where they had been for thousands of years.

So what? What have you proved? Only that a number of people came back to life. And you left out Lazarus, for no particular reason.

Doesn't matter anyway. 1 Cor 15:23 is clear enough. There will be ONE resurrection with glorified body and it will include every believer from Adam on.

You continue to NOT prove anything about your claims.

 

[DavidTree]

FreeGrace2 said:
None of this matters to the single resurrection at the Second Advent when Jesus comes back with all the saint who have died and gives the dead and living saints at His return glorified bodies.

Nobody gets a resurrection until the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 is clear enough for a gradeschooler to understand.

The words "those who belong to Him" refer to ALL believers from Adam forward.

Unless you explain yourself with actual evidence, there is no reason to believe your claims.

The Bible is very clear about there being ONE resurrection for all the saved, and that resurrection will be at the Second Advent. Gradeschoolers can follow this easily when they see the verses.


Once again, there is NO evidence that any of them received glorified bodies and were taken to heaven. Without evidence for that, your view sinks.


Ditto here.


Yep. They went back to where they had been. Once again, there is NO evidence that either of them recieved glorified bodies.


Yep. The 2W went right back to where they had been for thousands of years.

So what? What have you proved? Only that a number of people came back to life. And you left out Lazarus, for no particular reason.

Doesn't matter anyway. 1 Cor 15:23 is clear enough. There will be ONE resurrection with glorified body and it will include every believer from Adam on.

You continue to NOT prove anything about your claims.

Our Heavenly FATHER wrote a Children's Book that brings us to Life when we submit unto the Teacher = the Holy Spirit.

HIS Book was written for children = grade school grammar for all to see, hear and believe on.

Smart adults, edjumacated divinity scholars and geniuses have a difficult time, sitting on the ground, under the Tree of Life.

PS - Formal Graduation celebration is postponed until His Second Coming whereby we are lifted UP to an Accelerated Level Embodiment

 

[presidente]

https://christianchat.com/threads/thief-in-the-night-pretrib-or-second-coming.207494/post-4936812

There is "when"....

"@presidente said"
"Don't use bad translations for fine doctrinal points. Actual 'died in the great tribulation' does some bad damage to your pre-trib position on this issue, but real translation say 'come out of.' The 'translation' is doing the interpreting here. What version are you using. "

This is not evidence for your claim. I just pointed out that the translation was poor in the quote above.

 

[presidente]

No. Wrong.

Do you understand that the graves were opened BECAUSE of the earthquake?
And THEN the saints "arose" (g1453).

Matt 27:52-53 (corrected my typo!)
And the graves opened (BECAUSE OF THE EARTHQUAKE of v. 51); and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (g1453).
And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Also understand that v. 53 is commentary inserted after v. 52 logically but not chronologically (in terms of the rest of the passage).
Chronologically it belongs AFTER THE RESURRECTION! Obviously.

Look up the verb tenses. Let's start with some other translations that try to capture it:


Context Crossref Comment Greek
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

New Living Translation
They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

English Standard Version
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Berean Standard Bible
After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

Berean Literal Bible
And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

It doesn't say at which point they were resurrected, but that they went out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection.

But none of this is evidence that they went to heaven. Do you think your evidence that they went to heaven bodily already is as strong as the evidence that there are two more returns of Christ before the thousand years and that the rapture will be pre-trib?

If so, it speaks volumes about how you interpret the evidence.

 

[cv5]

Look up the verb tenses. Let's start with some other translations that try to capture it:


Context Crossref Comment Greek
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

New Living Translation
They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

English Standard Version
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Berean Standard Bible
After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

Berean Literal Bible
And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

It doesn't say at which point they were resurrected, but that they went out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection.

Do you understand that the graves were opened FIRST (DAYS EARLIER)........BECAUSE of the earthquake and these saints HAD NOT YET ARISEN?
And THEN the saints "arose" (g1453) THEREAFTER (DAYS LATER)....FOR THE OBVIOUS REASON THAT THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS HAD TO HAVE OCCURRED FIRST......BEFORE THEY AROSE. The fact of which the text infallibly declares.

@presidente said:

"It doesn't say at which point they were resurrected (??????), but that they went out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection.

New International Version
They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

New Living Translation
They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

English Standard Version
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Berean Standard Bible
After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

Berean Literal Bible
And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many."

 

[cv5]

Look up the verb tenses. Let's start with some other translations that try to capture it:


Context Crossref Comment Greek
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

New Living Translation
They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

English Standard Version
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Berean Standard Bible
After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

Berean Literal Bible
And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

It doesn't say at which point they were resurrected, but that they went out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection.

But none of this is evidence that they went to heaven. Do you think your evidence that they went to heaven bodily already is as strong as the evidence that there are two more returns of Christ before the thousand years and that the rapture will be pre-trib?

If so, it speaks volumes about how you interpret the evidence.

They were stiff rotting corpses or bones when the graves opened after the earthquake (and stayed that way for AT LEAST three days and three nights). Of course they could not walk out then.

What you are saying is an embarrassing gaffe (another whopper), and evidently you cannot see that either.......

 

[cv5]

Look up the verb tenses. Let's start with some other translations that try to capture it:


Context Crossref Comment Greek
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

New Living Translation
They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

English Standard Version
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Berean Standard Bible
After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

Berean Literal Bible
And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

It doesn't say at which point they were resurrected, but that they went out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection.

But none of this is evidence that they went to heaven. Do you think your evidence that they went to heaven bodily already is as strong as the evidence that there are two more returns of Christ before the thousand years and that the rapture will be pre-trib?

If so, it speaks volumes about how you interpret the evidence.

Risen saints just standing at the opening to their ruptured tombs, twiddling their thumbs, stretching and waving to people non-stop for 3 days and 3 nights, while shocked, horrified and amazed passers-by and onlookers and massive gaping crowds look on.

Is that the scenario that you have considered given your zany doctrine?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Risen saints just standing at the opening to their ruptured tombs, twiddling their thumbs, stretching and waving to people non-stop for 3 days and 3 nights, while shocked, horrified and amazed passers-by and onlookers and massive gaping crowds look on.

Is that the scenario that you have considered given your zany doctrine?

What is really zany is claiming that Jesus taking resurrected and glorified believers to heaven. Nothing in Scripture describes that.

You are believing what the Bible DOESN'T SAY.

I believe what the Bible DOES SAY. Which you don't.

 

[cv5]

What is really zany is claiming that Jesus taking resurrected and glorified believers to heaven. Nothing in Scripture describes that.

You are believing what the Bible DOESN'T SAY.

I believe what the Bible DOES SAY. Which you don't.

Other than Rev 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 11, Matt 27 and parallel passages, John 14 and a ton of epistles that is. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

So tell us....who do you think the 24 Elders represent? Let me guess......you haven't the foggiest idea. Do I have that right?

And the saints risen from the tombs in Matt 27. You have no idea where they went post-resurrection?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What is really zany is claiming that Jesus taking resurrected and glorified believers to heaven. Nothing in Scripture describes that.

You are believing what the Bible DOESN'T SAY.

I believe what the Bible DOES SAY. Which you don't.

Other than Rev 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 11, Matt 27 and parallel passages, John 14 and a ton of epistles that is. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

And you know full well that NONE of these verses says anything about Jesus taking resurrected and glorified believers to heaven.

So tell us....who do you think the 24 Elders represent? Let me guess......you haven't the foggiest idea. Do I have that right?

Actually, no scholar does. There are a variety of ideas among them. Are you superior to the scholars?

And the saints risen from the tombs in Matt 27. You have no idea where they went post-resurrection?

What does the Bible say about "where they went"?

I believe what the Bible says. You have shown that you believe what the Bible DOESN'T SAY. That is odd. Very odd.

The fact that you even tried to pass off Rev 1-3 as "rapture passages" is hilarious. Proving that you will say ANYTHING, regardless of how outlandish.

When are you going to awaken and realize that there are NO verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected and glorified believers to heaven?

You can dismiss the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse when they occur, if you are still alive. And we have no way to figure out when the 5th seal will occur.

But if you are still alive when the 6th seal is broken, there will be no doubt about being IN the Tribulation.

The world-wide earthquake will get everyone's attention. Even you truth deniers.

 

[GaryA]

FYI - I am about to take a break from this thread - and, in fact - "very highly likely" - CC altogether - "for a while"... (weeks? We shall see...)

Orrrrrrrrrr - maybe not...

The Lord said 'No'.

"Oh, well..."

 

[cv5]

You are believing what the Bible DOESN'T SAY.

What the bible DOESN'T SAY (aka: "show me the verse that says" copyright @FG2) about the Leviticus 14 cleansing ritual for lepers is that it is a OT type of Jesus' atonement, cleansing from sin and gift of the indwelling Spirit.

But the reality is there beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Despierta y huele al compañero de café.....

 

[GaryA]

Shaka when the walls fell.

Indeed...

 

[presidente]

Do you understand that the graves were opened FIRST (DAYS EARLIER)........BECAUSE of the earthquake and these saints HAD NOT YET ARISEN?
And THEN the saints "arose" (g1453) THEREAFTER (DAYS LATER)....FOR THE OBVIOUS REASON THAT THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS HAD TO HAVE OCCURRED FIRST......BEFORE THEY AROSE. The fact of which the text infallibly declares.

@presidente said:

"It doesn't say at which point they were resurrected (??????), but that they went out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection.

New International Version
They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

New Living Translation
They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

English Standard Version
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Berean Standard Bible
After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

Berean Literal Bible
And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many."

Do you understand that the graves were opened FIRST (DAYS EARLIER)........BECAUSE of the earthquake and these saints HAD NOT YET ARISEN?
And THEN the saints "arose" (g1453) THEREAFTER (DAYS LATER)....FOR THE OBVIOUS REASON THAT THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS HAD TO HAVE OCCURRED FIRST......BEFORE THEY AROSE. The fact of which the text infallibly declares.

@presidente said:

"It doesn't say at which point they were resurrected (??????), but that they went out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection.

New International Version
They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

New Living Translation
They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

English Standard Version
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Berean Standard Bible
After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

Berean Literal Bible
And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many."

I am looking at the Greek and also the interlinear text. I am a student of Greek, but I am hesitant to make pronouncements about verb meanings at my level of study. But if we look at the text the earth was shaken, the rocks were split, and many bodies of those who had slept arose.

The verbs translated 'shaken,' 'split', and 'arose' are all aorist indicative passive. There isn't some verb tense shift that puts one before the other here. They had risen from, but their going into the holy city and appearing to many occurred after Christ rose.

Whether it is grammatically possible that they rose after the rocks split, etc. rather than at the same time, I do not know.

Either way, I don't get why you are making an issue of this. The passage doesn't say that they were resurrected immortal or that they ascended to heaven. I know some pre-tribbers speculate along those lines. That's just guesswork.

I do notice a pattern here. You can't show scripture that shows these people ascended to heaven, and you can't show any scripture to show a rapture of the church occurring before the tribulation in scripture. You seem content to base scripture on speculation. I am not.