Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
Day 299 of the timeline, chronological reading plan is significant in that Jesus Himself clarifies that one of His sub-purposes is to divide people against each other. What an odd thing to say from our Powerful Creator, particularly if we were created with a complete sense of “free will.”

Luke 12:51-53 NLT – “Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I have come to divide people against each other! From now on families will be split apart, three in favor of me, and two against--or two in favor and three against. 'Father will be divided against son and son against father; mother against daughter and daughter against mother; and mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

Consider the companion passages for Luke 12:51-53 (below):

Matthew 10:34-36 NLT - "Don't imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword. 'I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Your enemies will be right in your own household!”

Should we be thanking Jesus for this foreknowledge? Should we thank Him for telling us what He will do, which is to cause us to be at psychological war with one another? While this may seem silly to suggest, who, in the above passage set, is taking responsibility for the division of families? Should credit be given to Satan? After all, nothing would please Satan more than to cause domestic division. Should we credit the individual for exercising their “free will” to hate their Christian family member? Neither, for the text tells us clearly that Jesus will cause this Division. God takes full responsibility for families to become divided because of Jesus.

Again, the logical question should be: Why would God do this? The answer is the same . . . God has an Eternal Plan that He is exercising for the express purpose of demonstrating His Power to the Rulers and Authorities in the Heavenly Realms. We are an exercise of God’s Almighty Power as if the Lord had said to those Rulers and Authorities, “Watch what I can do!” Ephesians 3:9-11 below explains this clearly:

NLT – “I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Beginning with Genesis, the Power of God was on full display, and we are not talking about His physical creation. Instead, we are talking about the Power of God to have created an entire, Eternal Plan and then begin to implement and execute it flawlessly . . . without error.

1 Corinthians 2:7 NLT – “No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God--his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began.”

What is this? The Lord created this Plan for our ultimate glory, yet we have the ability to live independently of that Plan? How can we say we are in control of every decision process made within our lives when the Bible presents clear and competent demonstrations that express otherwise? Is there any reason that we should not accept the Biblical discussion Paul had with the Ephesians, which is that God had and still has an Eternal Plan? Is there some reason to believe that because we allegedly have “free will,” this “free” sense about us somehow places us outside the Lord Almighty’s grip? Is not the whole world within His Hands?” How would the Lord execute His Eternal Plan if humans possess “free will” to do perfectly as they wish?

Imagine the General of an army of men who are expected to do exactly according to the Generals commands if the army and its nation are expected to “win” and survive a war. Unfortunately, all military men are free to choose to do whatever they desire. They can either obey the orders and commands given by their General, or they can choose to follow their own plan . . . and this is done without penalty. Commands are given, but because of “free will” to choose to obey or disobey without consequence, how could this army possibly survive and win a war if there is no required plan established through submission?

Submission to our Powerful God must exist to be within a Right relationship with Him. If we have not submitted to the Lord in all ways, we do not belong to Him . . . we have yet to become His Holy Property. We can indeed know that we belong to Him when He begins to apply His Holy Discipline. And, of course, Discipline implies personal hardship, but if we begin to change and become more like Christ, we can be more assured of genuinely becoming His Property. When we discover that our personal grip and power over this physical life have begun to diminish, the proof of God controlling our lives will become evident.

Romans 8:9 NLT – “But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)”
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
The man who wrote Eph 2:8 is the SAME MAN who wrote Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Believing and confessing will deliver a person as he sojourns here on earth, but it will not deliver a person eternally.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
That phrase isn't about "faith" but "salvation".

Your quote is in answer to my comment; "Eph 2:8, Ye are saved by grace through faith, even though is says it is not of yourselves".

You are right. It is about eternal deliverance because of the "faithfulness of Jesus" going to the cross.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
That is merely your own opinion. If you read all the available translations on biblehub.com you will see that as many translate the verse with "faith of Jesus" as "faith in Jesus". So, are you the Greek expert or something?

I use the KJV and Strong's concordance. If you insert other versions of the bible, and other concordances, then we will always have disagreements. I will not use any other study sources, other than these two. Scriptures prove themselves when harmonized.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
If you insert other versions of the bible, and other concordances, then we will always have disagreements.
Interesting. I find that using as many translations as possible is one of the major reasons why I find harmony in the Scriptures.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
Believing on Jesus is not a work of mankind, but is a work of God. Phil 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
We'll be covering this passage on Day 351 of the timeline, chronological reading plan.

The above passage is in direct conflict with those who say that they are in control of their lives (thoughts and decisions made).
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
OK, please explain how to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" per Eph 5:18. It is in the imperative mood, the mood of COMMAND! How does one obey that specific command?

Most evangelicals have been very poorly taught and think once saved, fruit will automatically be produced. Not so.

In your explanation, keep in mind the command to NOT "grieve the Spirit" per Eph 4:30 and NOT "quench the Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19.

iow, believers are not only able to do these things, they DO them. And Paul tells us not to do them.

Looking forward to your explanation.

Once a person has been born again, and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit works within that person in many ways.

In Eph 5:18, has reference to the regenerate person. A person that already has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and "to be filled with the Spirit is a working of the Holy Spirit enabling the person to offer up spiritual sacrifices, as referenced in 1 Pet 2:5,- Ye also as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

We can grieve the Holy Spirit in many ways. One way is to be drunk with wine to excess.

Paul telling us not to grieve the Holy Spirit does not mean that we will, does it?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
OK, please explain how to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" per Eph 5:18. It is in the imperative mood, the mood of COMMAND! How does one obey that specific command?

Most evangelicals have been very poorly taught and think once saved, fruit will automatically be produced. Not so.

In your explanation, keep in mind the command to NOT "grieve the Spirit" per Eph 4:30 and NOT "quench the Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19.

iow, believers are not only able to do these things, they DO them. And Paul tells us not to do them.

Looking forward to your explanation.

Once a person has been born again, and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit works within that person in many ways.

In Eph 5:18, has reference to the regenerate person. A person that already has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and "to be filled with the Spirit is a working of the Holy Spirit enabling the person to offer up spiritual sacrifices, as referenced in 1 Pet 2:5,- Ye also as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

We can grieve the Holy Spirit in many ways. One way is to be drunk with wine to excess.

Paul telling us not to grieve the Holy Spirit does not mean that we will, does it?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
OK, please explain how to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" per Eph 5:18. It is in the imperative mood, the mood of COMMAND! How does one obey that specific command?

Most evangelicals have been very poorly taught and think once saved, fruit will automatically be produced. Not so.

In your explanation, keep in mind the command to NOT "grieve the Spirit" per Eph 4:30 and NOT "quench the Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19.

iow, believers are not only able to do these things, they DO them. And Paul tells us not to do them.

Looking forward to your explanation.

Once a person has been born again, and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit works within that person in many ways.

In Eph 5:18, has reference to the regenerate person. A person that already has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and "to be filled with the Spirit is a working of the Holy Spirit enabling the person to offer up spiritual sacrifices, as referenced in 1 Pet 2:5,- Ye also as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

We can grieve the Holy Spirit in many ways. One way is to be drunk with wine to excess.

Paul telling us not to grieve the Holy Spirit does not mean that we will, does it?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
FreeGrace2 said:
Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

This verse SAYS that salvation (and therefore regeneration) are through faith. That means faith precedes both of them.

The man who wrote Eph 2:8 is the SAME MAN who wrote Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

And Paul was consistent in all his writings. So YES, Eph 2:8 about YOUR faith.


That phrase isn't about "faith" but "salvation".


That is merely your own opinion. If you read all the available translations on biblehub.com you will see that as many translate the verse with "faith of Jesus" as "faith in Jesus". So, are you the Greek expert or something?

Anyway, Rom 10:10 refutes your thinking.


Aren't you aware of John 6:29? And why Jesus said what he did?


Correct.


OK, please explain how to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" per Eph 5:18. It is in the imperative mood, the mood of COMMAND! How does one obey that specific command?

Most evangelicals have been very poorly taught and think once saved, fruit will automatically be produced. Not so.

In your explanation, keep in mind the command to NOT "grieve the Spirit" per Eph 4:30 and NOT "quench the Spirit" in 1 Thess 5:19.

iow, believers are not only able to do these things, they DO them. And Paul tells us not to do them.

Looking forward to your explanation.


Is there a verse that teaches this clearly?

regeneration follows faith. We know this from Eph 2:5 where Paul equates "being made alive" (regeneration) with "being saved". They are synonymous. Then, in v.8 Paul said we are saved by GRACE through faith.

This means that salvation is THROUGH faith. iow, the faith must be there before salvation, and from v.5 regenerationn.

So salvation/regeneration are through faith. Faith precedes them both.


Paul said man "believes from his heart". His own heart. And those who believe are saved.

You have been confused, and possibly, deceived by Calvinism. They cannot support their claims from the Bible.

If you know more than them, please share what you have that supports their claims. They are unable to do it.

I have explained Eph 2:8 to you in my post # 797. Why do you keep repeating questions that I have already explained to you?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Interesting. I find that using as many translations as possible is one of the major reasons why I find harmony in the Scriptures.

That may work fine for you, but, for myself, I do not rely upon other person's interpretation of the scriptures, believing that the scriptures prove themselves.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Interesting. I find that using as many translations as possible is one of the major reasons why I find harmony in the Scriptures.

That may work fine for you, but, for myself, I do not rely upon other person's interpretation of the scriptures, believing that the scriptures prove themselves.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Interesting. I find that using as many translations as possible is one of the major reasons why I find harmony in the Scriptures.

That may work fine for you, but, for myself, I do not rely upon other person's interpretation of the scriptures, believing that the scriptures prove themselves.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Your quote is in answer to my comment; "Eph 2:8, Ye are saved by grace through faith, even though is says it is not of yourselves".

You are right. It is about eternal deliverance because of the "faithfulness of Jesus" going to the cross.


Eph 2:8 is all about Jesus faith, not mankind's.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,757
4,120
113
63
That may work fine for you, but, for myself, I do not rely upon other person's interpretation of the scriptures, believing that the scriptures prove themselves.
Genuine question ...
Why did God give some to teach and preach ?...I ask this because of your reply above...
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Believing and confessing will deliver a person as he sojourns here on earth, but it will not deliver a person eternally.
Wrong. The basis for NEVER PERISHING is receiving the gift of eternal life. John 10:28

The basis for receiving the gift of eternal life is believing in Jesus Christ. John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47.

Prove Jesus wrong.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
I use the KJV and Strong's concordance. If you insert other versions of the bible, and other concordances, then we will always have disagreements. I will not use any other study sources, other than these two. Scriptures prove themselves when harmonized.
That's your problem, not mine. The KJV is archaic. I use lexicons, both Hebrew and Greek for my sources.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Believing on Jesus is not a work of mankind, but is a work of God.
You are without any evidence from Scripture.

Phil 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
This doesn't say that God works believing in men.

So, what verse does?