Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?
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Could be.
But the more pertinent issue (with what I'm talking about with cv5) is when they "arose" (from the dead). I believe that occurred on the day He died, like when the earthquake occurred, and the rocks were rent, etc.
It reminds me of the Luke 24:36-51 passage, when reading through that, it comes across as having occurred all on His resurrection day, including vv.50-51 (if one wasn't aware of other passages which inform us otherwise).
What I meant was, like the Luke 24:36-51 passage I just referred to above ^ , one must ascertain just when certain things occurred in relation to other things in the text (it isn't always abundantly clear within a given text). Like, was it all on the SAME DAY, or if not, which things occurred on which day. Hope that makes sense.
But the more pertinent issue (with what I'm talking about with cv5) is when they "arose" (from the dead). I believe that occurred on the day He died, like when the earthquake occurred, and the rocks were rent, etc.
It reminds me of the Luke 24:36-51 passage, when reading through that, it comes across as having occurred all on His resurrection day, including vv.50-51 (if one wasn't aware of other passages which inform us otherwise).
What I meant was, like the Luke 24:36-51 passage I just referred to above ^ , one must ascertain just when certain things occurred in relation to other things in the text (it isn't always abundantly clear within a given text). Like, was it all on the SAME DAY, or if not, which things occurred on which day. Hope that makes sense.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. See? No assumptions.
And?
The words "may be" don't mean "will be".
Could you enlighten me? Thanks.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. See? No assumptions.
You may not have assumed anything in particular; however, you are missing something - and, it may be found in the Greek... 
The words "may be" don't mean "will be".
Could you enlighten me? Thanks.
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"And they heard a great voice out of heaven, saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them."
We have another outlier here. Nothing concrete vis a vis Matt 27......but evidently broad flexibility re: resurrection types/modes is plausible.
We have another outlier here. Nothing concrete vis a vis Matt 27......but evidently broad flexibility re: resurrection types/modes is plausible.
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GaryA said:
First resurrection - only the saved.
Second resurrection - both saved and unsaved - saved from the Millenium, unsaved from all time.
Gary is using "saved" incorrectly regarding the Millennium. There is no "saved from the Millennium. Everyone who enters the Millennium who survived the Tribulation will be mortal unbelievers, and there is no indication from Scripturd that any of them get saved during the Millennium, which explains WHY the whole world rebels when Satan is released and the whole world attacks Jerusalem in an attempt to overthrow King Jesus.
But they all get fried. Only to be resurrected back into their mortal bodies to be cast into the LOF where their bodies die again.
First resurrection - only the saved.
Second resurrection - both saved and unsaved - saved from the Millenium, unsaved from all time.
Gary is using "saved" incorrectly regarding the Millennium. There is no "saved from the Millennium. Everyone who enters the Millennium who survived the Tribulation will be mortal unbelievers, and there is no indication from Scripturd that any of them get saved during the Millennium, which explains WHY the whole world rebels when Satan is released and the whole world attacks Jerusalem in an attempt to overthrow King Jesus.
But they all get fried. Only to be resurrected back into their mortal bodies to be cast into the LOF where their bodies die again.
Here is the crux of our (overall) disagreement.
I thoroughly disagree that Scripture presents as you suggest, that "Everyone who enters the Millennium who survived the Tribulation will be mortal unbelievers,"
...as the various terms and phrases referring to "the promised and prophesied earthly MK age / entrance into the earthly MK age," are (to name but a few):
--"the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (only the INVITED guests who accept the invitation and are wearing the provided "apparel" are permitted)--Matt22:9-14; etc;
--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (the earthly MK age)--see passages like Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50, where only the WHEAT enter (not the TARES) and only the GOOD fish enter (not the BAD); and (where Jesus' Olivet Discourse response to their Matt24:3 question to Him was BASED ON what He'd ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13, so His response covers...) in Matthew 25:1-13, where only the 5 WISE "virginS" enter (not the 5 FOOLISH ones);
--"the kingdom HAVING BEEN prepared... FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" (the earthly MK age) in Matthew 25:31-34 and context (same time-frame also in Matt19:28 and Lk22:30,16,18), where only the "BLESSED [/righteous]" SHEEP will enter (not the GOATS [/the 'cursed']), of the nationS; same "BLESSED" as in about 8 other passages re: same time-slot / circumstances, like Rev16:14-16 "BLESSED", Dan12:12 "BLESSED", Matt24:42-51 "BLESSED", Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "BLESSED"... etc (where ONLY the "BLESSED" will enter the MK age);
--etc... (the above is just a FEW examples)...
The saved mortals who ENTER the earthly MK age will produce children (grandchildren and so forth) who are not "BORN automatically righteous" (and note, I'm not saying they all STAY that way);... so this is how there will be the possibility at the END of the MK age for mortals to potentially be "deceived" by Satan, or for "DEATH" to be experienced (tho a more rare thing in the MK) ONLY by the rebellious (i.e. UNsaved) throughout the MK age;
Scripture does not say that "the whole world WILL BE deceived," rather it says that's Satan's INTENT--it doesn't really state definitively that he will be SUCCESSFUL at this endeavor, just that he's released out-from his prison TO go forth TO deceive the nations, as his INTENT--Where it says "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea," that is regarding whom it is his intent to gather to battle, from "the four quarters of the earth," but it doesn't really say "and THEY ALL CAME" (thus ALL "get fried," no)
I wouldn't agree that ALL who will exist in the earthly MK age "all get fried" in the end [/the end of the MK age], no.
And the ones who DIED during the MK age (because "DEATH" will be much more rare, reserved ONLY for the rebellious [/unsaved]), they will indeed be among "the dead [of all times]" who will be resurrected at the GWTj time-slot, to be "cast into the lake of fire" at that point.
I thoroughly disagree that Scripture presents as you suggest, that "Everyone who enters the Millennium who survived the Tribulation will be mortal unbelievers,"
...as the various terms and phrases referring to "the promised and prophesied earthly MK age / entrance into the earthly MK age," are (to name but a few):
--"the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (only the INVITED guests who accept the invitation and are wearing the provided "apparel" are permitted)--Matt22:9-14; etc;
--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS" (the earthly MK age)--see passages like Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50, where only the WHEAT enter (not the TARES) and only the GOOD fish enter (not the BAD); and (where Jesus' Olivet Discourse response to their Matt24:3 question to Him was BASED ON what He'd ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13, so His response covers...) in Matthew 25:1-13, where only the 5 WISE "virginS" enter (not the 5 FOOLISH ones);
--"the kingdom HAVING BEEN prepared... FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" (the earthly MK age) in Matthew 25:31-34 and context (same time-frame also in Matt19:28 and Lk22:30,16,18), where only the "BLESSED [/righteous]" SHEEP will enter (not the GOATS [/the 'cursed']), of the nationS; same "BLESSED" as in about 8 other passages re: same time-slot / circumstances, like Rev16:14-16 "BLESSED", Dan12:12 "BLESSED", Matt24:42-51 "BLESSED", Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "BLESSED"... etc (where ONLY the "BLESSED" will enter the MK age);
--etc... (the above is just a FEW examples)...
The saved mortals who ENTER the earthly MK age will produce children (grandchildren and so forth) who are not "BORN automatically righteous" (and note, I'm not saying they all STAY that way);... so this is how there will be the possibility at the END of the MK age for mortals to potentially be "deceived" by Satan, or for "DEATH" to be experienced (tho a more rare thing in the MK) ONLY by the rebellious (i.e. UNsaved) throughout the MK age;
Scripture does not say that "the whole world WILL BE deceived," rather it says that's Satan's INTENT--it doesn't really state definitively that he will be SUCCESSFUL at this endeavor, just that he's released out-from his prison TO go forth TO deceive the nations, as his INTENT--Where it says "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea," that is regarding whom it is his intent to gather to battle, from "the four quarters of the earth," but it doesn't really say "and THEY ALL CAME" (thus ALL "get fried," no)
I wouldn't agree that ALL who will exist in the earthly MK age "all get fried" in the end [/the end of the MK age], no.
And the ones who DIED during the MK age (because "DEATH" will be much more rare, reserved ONLY for the rebellious [/unsaved]), they will indeed be among "the dead [of all times]" who will be resurrected at the GWTj time-slot, to be "cast into the lake of fire" at that point.
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Here you are throwing in phrases/terms from other contexts. So let's stick with Rev 20.
When Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, do you agree that ALL believers will be resurrected? If you do, then who is left to populate the Millennium?
If you believe that there will be people saved during the Millennium, where in Scripture is that noted or shown? And when would their resurrection be? If there is another resurrection of the saved, then 1 Cor 15:23 cannot be true.
So you have a problem if you believe there will be more than 1 resurrection of the saved.
Not relevant to Rev 20 and has nothing to do with the single resurrection of the saved (1 Cor 15:23).
You're going to have to unravel all this. Very hard to follow any thought process here. Seems like you're just jumping all over Scripture.
More of the same here.
You need to boil it all down to make sense.
Why would there be ANY saved mortals to enter the earthly MK age SINCE ALL believers will be glorified at the Second Advent? That is your problem. Show HOW there can be "saved mortals" entering the MK. Not possible if Rev 20 and 1 Cor 15:23 are true.
This is irrelevant until you prove your claim that saved mortals will enter the MK.
So what? The Bible clearly states in multiple passages that there will be ONE resurrection of the saved. So your view cannot provide for another resurrection so your supposed "saved mortals" will receive glorified bodies.
And, furthermore, 1 Cor 15:23 won't permit your claim.
When Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, do you agree that ALL believers will be resurrected? If you do, then who is left to populate the Millennium?
If you believe that there will be people saved during the Millennium, where in Scripture is that noted or shown? And when would their resurrection be? If there is another resurrection of the saved, then 1 Cor 15:23 cannot be true.
So you have a problem if you believe there will be more than 1 resurrection of the saved.
Not relevant to Rev 20 and has nothing to do with the single resurrection of the saved (1 Cor 15:23).
You're going to have to unravel all this. Very hard to follow any thought process here. Seems like you're just jumping all over Scripture.
More of the same here.
You need to boil it all down to make sense.
Why would there be ANY saved mortals to enter the earthly MK age SINCE ALL believers will be glorified at the Second Advent? That is your problem. Show HOW there can be "saved mortals" entering the MK. Not possible if Rev 20 and 1 Cor 15:23 are true.
This is irrelevant until you prove your claim that saved mortals will enter the MK.
So what? The Bible clearly states in multiple passages that there will be ONE resurrection of the saved. So your view cannot provide for another resurrection so your supposed "saved mortals" will receive glorified bodies.
And, furthermore, 1 Cor 15:23 won't permit your claim.
No. Because not all believers will have DIED, thus not all will need to be "resurrected".
Many passages in the Gospels speak of "still-living" saints at the time of His RETURN to the earth FOR the MK age; even Dan12:12 speaks of "still-living" saints, who will be "BLESSED" (i.e. to ENTER the earthly MK age... in their mortal bodies; as "still-living" saints / believers / the wise / the righteous)... not all "saints" will have DIED prior to His "return" to the earth FOR the MK age.
Saints who will have DIED during the trib yrs will be resurrected ['to stand again'] then, as well as OT saints who will be resurrected also at that time
I don't.
Because not ALL saints will have DIED by that point (the start of the MK age), thus not requiring them to be "resurrected [from the dead]."
Instead, as Jesus had also said, "I am THE RESURRECTION *and* THE LIFE" (and after saying [of persons], "though he may die, yet shall he live" i.e. be "resurrected" from the dead), goes on to say, "and he that LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?"
Many passages in the Gospels speak of "still-living" saints at the time of His RETURN to the earth FOR the MK age; even Dan12:12 speaks of "still-living" saints, who will be "BLESSED" (i.e. to ENTER the earthly MK age... in their mortal bodies; as "still-living" saints / believers / the wise / the righteous)... not all "saints" will have DIED prior to His "return" to the earth FOR the MK age.
Saints who will have DIED during the trib yrs will be resurrected ['to stand again'] then, as well as OT saints who will be resurrected also at that time
I don't.
Because not ALL saints will have DIED by that point (the start of the MK age), thus not requiring them to be "resurrected [from the dead]."
Instead, as Jesus had also said, "I am THE RESURRECTION *and* THE LIFE" (and after saying [of persons], "though he may die, yet shall he live" i.e. be "resurrected" from the dead), goes on to say, "and he that LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?"
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FreeGrace2 said:
When Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, do you agree that ALL believers will be resurrected?
Are you really not aware that when Christ returns at the Second Advent, all the dead believers WILL BE resurrected and all the living ones will be "changed" which means given glorified bodies, which are the EXACT same as the resurrection bodies.
Read 1 These 4:17, 1 Cor 15:52 and 2 Thess 2:1.
Yes, we all know this. This is the so-called "rapture generation" that the pre-tribbers think will be taken to heaven after their glorification.
Are you not aware that all the dead and living saints will receive their glorified bodies at the same event?
When a person metions the "resurrection" that ALWAYS includes the ones still living, as 1 Thess 4:17, 1 Cor 15:52 and 2 Thess 2:1 plainly say.
Also, 1 Cor 15:23 makes clear that all believers are "reurrected" when He comes. That includes the living ones, who will be "changed" per 1 Cor 15:52.
All your comments just muddy the waters. When I mention the resurrection of the saints, I OBVIOUSLY include all the living saints who get their glorified bodies along with all the dead saints.
I think you are straining at gnats. You are making it much less clear by your posts.
When Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, do you agree that ALL believers will be resurrected?
Are you really not aware that when Christ returns at the Second Advent, all the dead believers WILL BE resurrected and all the living ones will be "changed" which means given glorified bodies, which are the EXACT same as the resurrection bodies.
Read 1 These 4:17, 1 Cor 15:52 and 2 Thess 2:1.
Yes, we all know this. This is the so-called "rapture generation" that the pre-tribbers think will be taken to heaven after their glorification.
Are you not aware that all the dead and living saints will receive their glorified bodies at the same event?
When a person metions the "resurrection" that ALWAYS includes the ones still living, as 1 Thess 4:17, 1 Cor 15:52 and 2 Thess 2:1 plainly say.
Also, 1 Cor 15:23 makes clear that all believers are "reurrected" when He comes. That includes the living ones, who will be "changed" per 1 Cor 15:52.
All your comments just muddy the waters. When I mention the resurrection of the saints, I OBVIOUSLY include all the living saints who get their glorified bodies along with all the dead saints.
I think you are straining at gnats. You are making it much less clear by your posts.
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^ @FreeGrace2 , getting a "glorified" body (the "change") is not a "resurrection" (which means, "to stand again" on the earth after having physically DIED); so no... you're missing some things based on your faulty definitions.
You may not have assumed anything in particular; however, you are missing something - and, it may be found in the Greek...
I did not say 'maybe'.
My use of the words "may be found" was not in the sense of "it might be found there"; rather, it was in the sense of "it is there to be found" - i.e. - if you look you will find it [there].
I will discuss the Greek in a later post.
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What the two of you need to understand is that the only difference there will be between now and the Millennium is that Jesus will be ruling over everything during the Millennium...
(Of course - Satan will be locked away - which the Lord will put into effect early in His millennial reign.)
It will be the same earth - same physics - same biology for humans, animals, plants, etc. - same everything.
People will still live - marry - beget and raise children - and die.
People will still have the opportunity to be rebellious and sin - or not.
People will still have the cognizant ability to choose between good and evil.
Oh sure - at the Second Coming - when He arrives on the scene - He is going to 'upset' everything, 'burn' some stuff, punish the wicked, etc.
However, it is not going to be the kind of "complete overhaul" like the new heaven and earth, new Jerusalem, etc. is going to be.
Same 'ole earth - with Jesus ruling it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Using a modern term - 'regime change'. (of the best possible kind) Jesus-in-charge
The earth is not going to be [completely] "destroyed and remade" until the end of the Millennium.
Yes - the Lord will change many things - no doubt - at the beginning of His millennial reign.
But - everything else will remain - and continue - until the end of His millennial reign.
Everything does not come to a complete stop at the Second Coming - that does not happen until the end of the Millennium and the GWTJ.
(Of course - Satan will be locked away - which the Lord will put into effect early in His millennial reign.)
It will be the same earth - same physics - same biology for humans, animals, plants, etc. - same everything.
People will still live - marry - beget and raise children - and die.
People will still have the opportunity to be rebellious and sin - or not.
People will still have the cognizant ability to choose between good and evil.
Oh sure - at the Second Coming - when He arrives on the scene - He is going to 'upset' everything, 'burn' some stuff, punish the wicked, etc.
However, it is not going to be the kind of "complete overhaul" like the new heaven and earth, new Jerusalem, etc. is going to be.
Same 'ole earth - with Jesus ruling it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Using a modern term - 'regime change'. (of the best possible kind)
Jesus-in-charge The earth is not going to be [completely] "destroyed and remade" until the end of the Millennium.
Yes - the Lord will change many things - no doubt - at the beginning of His millennial reign.
But - everything else will remain - and continue - until the end of His millennial reign.
Everything does not come to a complete stop at the Second Coming - that does not happen until the end of the Millennium and the GWTJ.
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I think it is. How do you know the The Lord doesn't kill & resurrect the aging, decaying, dying bodies of men?
Physically we are dying. Nothing stops that unless God intervenes.
Rapture IS resurrection. That is my belief. Arguing about "rapture" always takes the focus off the miracle of resurrection.
He gave us a new spirit, he will give us a new body. Only then is our salvation complete. Just because we are still alive
doesn't mean our bodies are not subject to decay.
When Jesus returns - our redemption has come. Because we change in the twinkling of an eye doesn't
mean it's not a death & resurrection.
The mortal will put on immortality, death will be swallowed up in victory. He makes a new creation.
We don't need endless word-drills & Greek studies to understand these things. We know them by The Spirit.
Physically we are dying. Nothing stops that unless God intervenes.
Rapture IS resurrection. That is my belief. Arguing about "rapture" always takes the focus off the miracle of resurrection.
He gave us a new spirit, he will give us a new body. Only then is our salvation complete. Just because we are still alive
doesn't mean our bodies are not subject to decay.
When Jesus returns - our redemption has come. Because we change in the twinkling of an eye doesn't
mean it's not a death & resurrection.
The mortal will put on immortality, death will be swallowed up in victory. He makes a new creation.
We don't need endless word-drills & Greek studies to understand these things. We know them by The Spirit.
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Technically, 'resurrection' and 'rapture' are two different things - two "sub-events" of a [major] 'event'.
The 'resurrection' is back-to-life combined with glorified-body; the 'rapture' is [strictly] the catching-up of [all of] the saints [together] after they have all gone through the 'change'.
In a very real sense, the 'change' of/on those who are still alive is a form of death-and-resurrection - only, in singular timing - because, the mortal body dies as the 'change' is occurring.
The 'resurrection' is back-to-life combined with glorified-body; the 'rapture' is [strictly] the catching-up of [all of] the saints [together] after they have all gone through the 'change'.
In a very real sense, the 'change' of/on those who are still alive is a form of death-and-resurrection - only, in singular timing - because, the mortal body dies as the 'change' is occurring.
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