Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Everlasting-Grace]

Too much to digest. Can you post one or two that you feel are the best? Then we can go from there.

Try John 6

John 6: 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

 

[ZNP]

a blue letter bible is FACTS?

lol commentary is FACTS??

The facts are that the translations listed translate this word using those terms and those are the various terms all translations agree with as the meaning of this word.

The facts are that the word salvation is not used in that verse.

Facts.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Try John 6

John 6: 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

Maybe you didn't comprehend my original question. I asked for a scripture, even one scripture that teaches that salvation is irrevocable. I'm still waiting.

 

[ZNP]

If faithfulness unto death were guaranteed, Jesus Christ would not command it. But in the Book of Revelation, He does.

Rev 2:10b: "Remain faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."

This is not speaking just of eternal rewards, as some say. It is speaking of eternal life itself as the crown.

Rev 2:26: "To anyone who overcomes and perseveres in doing my works until the end, I will give authority over the nations"

Once more, not only to believe, but also to overcome, i.e. to persevere in God's Works until the end is needed to go to Heaven.

Study the Book of Revelation and you will see there are 7 Extraordinary Promises in it specially for those who overcome.

This is really helpful at confirming that "suffering loss" means they won't rule and reign and that you have to overcome and persevere in order to reign.

However, Paul said that they will be saved but so as through fire and they will suffer loss. We still haven't explained what kind of salvation that is.

 

[ZNP]

this is in error

we do not believe our name is written when we are saved, we believe everyones name is written. When someone dies having rejected the gift of life. their name is blotted out.

The book of Life


Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

These two verses talk about people whose names are written in the book of life. In both cases it is believers in the church. It would not make sense to say that Paul's fellow laborers had their names written in the book of life if everyone does, that would be like saying my fellow laborers breathe air.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Never once are we told in the New Testament that unbelievers have their name written in the book of life.

This unbiblical teaching of Everlasting-Grace reminds me of what some teachers tell their kids on day 1 of school, they say everyone is starting at 100. That is baloney. I told them everyone is starting at 0. You have done 0 you have 0. Every assignment you do, every test you take, these things will add to your score. When you tell kids they are starting at 100 they then look at everything they do as bringing their grade down, that is not true, everything you do brings your grade up. Even if you fail a test and get a 50. If you don't take the test you get a 0.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is the issue with OSAS that I have, you can't take the Bible at face value, you have to explain everything away.

What are you talking about?? John 5:24 and John 10:28 couldn't be any more clear abouty eternal security. What is it about those 2 verses that you won't accept?

When Esau was born he was the firstborn and hence he had the inheritance from birth. However, his actions later in selling the birthright caused him to forfeit that inheritance. I don't buy the idea that there are two separate inheritances.

I've already noted that the Bible speaks of 2 inheritances for the believer.

If you are a descendant of David and are supposed to rule and reign but are cut off from ruling and reigning that is very serious. It did happen so some, but Absalom and Adonijah were types of the antichrist.

This doesn't disprove eternal security.

This brings up the second issue I have with OSAS, when you dig down and finally get someone like yourself to actually discuss the verses you realize even if this is true (and it certainly may be) that there is nothing that Absalom, or Adonijah, or Esau can do to lose that inheritance from their birth, even if that is true, the fine print that they avoid at all costs is that what you are calling salvation could be horrible. It could be the "outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth".

All of God's discipline and wrath is horrible. And the problem is that pastors all over the world have failed to include that teaching. So Arminians, who believe that salvation can be lost, think OSAS means a believer can get away with anything. Which is patently untrue.

There will be terrible misery for any of God's children who disobey and rebel. Count on it. Nobody gets away with anything.

The reason for this is how heavily you must emphasize two verses while deemphasizing and downplaying 30 or 40 other verses.

Excuse me, but I emphasize those 2 verses because they are the BEST and CLEAREST verses that state eternal security, which is from the MOMENT one becomes a believer. I am just amazed at how many believers simply don't believe those words of Jesus. Instead, they grasp onto those "30-40 verses" that CANNOT refute what Jesus said, but they wrongly interpret them to support their notion that salvation can be lost.

If loss of salvation were true, there would be at least 1 verse that plainly says so. And there isn't such a verse.

otoh, combining John 5:24 with 10:28 gives us a plainly stated case for eternal security.

I do not subscribe to either camp, I don't believe the Bible teaches "once saved always saved" even if it does teach that once you are justified by the blood of Jesus that moment in time will never be taken away from you. I also don't believe the Bible teaches "elevator salvation".

I don't know what "elevator salvation" means, and never heard that phrase. However, if you do believe that justification, which ALSO occurs the MOMENT you believe, how can you also think that salvation can be lost or taken away? Those are 2 very contradictory ideas.

I subscribe to the Jesus is Lord camp. I believe the Bible is the revelation of the savior, and that is where our focus should be.

OK. I hope every theological camp also embraces that. Now, since you subscribe to the Jesus is Lord camp, it's time for you to BELIEVE ALL that He has taught. And He has CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY taught that from the MOMENT of saving faith, the believer possesses eternal life and SHALL NEVER PERISH. It couldn't be any more clear than what Jesus said.

So, since Jesus IS your Lord, you'd better believe what He has said.

I believe that every true believer must take up their cross and follow Him.

Right. This is a command of obedience. We owe Him no less.

Either you will do it willingly or else you will be put into a situation where you have no other option but to either declare your faith in Him even though it means death or deny Him. I am disgusted with anyone who thinks "they are saved" and yet Jesus is not Lord and they tell you that straight up, they make me want to vomit.

Yes, they ARE disgusting people, for sure. But if they ever believed that Jesus died for their sins, and they trusted Him to save them, that means Jesus GAVE THEM eternal life, and they shall never perish, no matter how hard that may be for some believers to swallow.

However, these disgusting people WILL be miserable in their life. They won't get away with anything. Heb 12:11 says that God's discipline is painful. I don't doubt that at all. Even if I can't see their misery, I KNOW God is or will be punishing them, so I don't sweat it. It is in God's hands.

I am disgusted by those who pick and choose what Bible verses they will embrace, ignore or even discard. Jesus is the incarnated word of God, for Him to be Lord practically means the word of God is Lord.

AMEN!

 

[ResidentAlien]

One thing is certain, God will never revoke His gift of grace to mankind. In other words, He won't say, "Alright people, I've changed my mind, the gift of salvation through my Son is off the table; I take it back."

But we can decide we no longer want to take advantage of it and abandon Christ.

 

[ZNP]

What are you talking about?? John 5:24 and John 10:28 couldn't be any more clear abouty eternal security. What is it about those 2 verses that you won't accept?

I do accept them.

 

[ZNP]

If loss of salvation were true, there would be at least 1 verse that plainly says so. And there isn't such a verse.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This plainly says your name can be erased from the book of life.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This plainly says that if your name is not in the book of life you get cast into the lake of fire.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok, so what do you say then about those passages? Mat 24:13 and Rom 2:6 since it's not quoted above.

you know, why bother, since I have given you THE MOST CLEAR AND PLAIN verses on eternal security and all you do is deflect to your fav verses, that you aren't even comprehending? It is clear that your "kicking the goads" with John 5;24 and 10:28 only shows that you DON'T BELIEVE what Jesus said.

Also, if Calvinist OSAS was true, the Lord would have said: "He who is saved will perservere unto the end".

Right. And Calvinism isn't true.

If Free Grace OSAS was true, the Lord would have said: "He who does not persevere will be saved, but only lose rewards".

The Bible does say this, only in words that the Holy Spirit said, and not words that you demand. 1 Coordinations 3:12-15.

But since neither of those/CS is true, the Lord in fact said: "He who perseveres to the end will be saved."

Pitiful. That verse has been fully explained to you, but you are just stubborn and refuse to believe the truth. Don't you realize that if that verse meant loss of salvation, then what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28 CANNOT be true? Good grief, man! Get a grip!

Eternal Life refers to the Person of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. [/QUTOE]
Right. So show me a verse that says the Holy Spirit leaves any NT believer. You can't, because Jesus promised that He would be with us FOREVER. It was true in the OT because only a few believers had the endouement of the Spirit. And He could be removed.

The rest of your post was nothing but "kicking the goads". John 5:24 and 10:28 together PROVE that salvation cannot be lost.

Once Jesus gives eternal life to someone, which is WHEN they become a believer, they shall never perish. End of story.

You don't want the truth, you just want to argue with your terribly misunderstood verses. Go argue with someone else, who needs the practice. I don't need the practice.

 

[ZNP]

The Fundamental flaw in OSAS

Jesus is Lord.

When they tell you that your name being erased from the book of life is not referring to losing your salvation, that is their interpretation. But that means 0 because Jesus is Lord. Jesus decides who goes into the lake of fire and who doesn't.

When they tell you that this person who turned back was never saved, that is their interpretation. They don't know men's hearts, only God does.

The fundamental flaw in OSAS is that you aren't the Lord. Jesus is Lord. When you appear before the throne that doctrine will be worth 0. That doctrine doesn't save you, Jesus saves you.

They admit the real question is whether or not Jesus says "I never knew you". Nowhere in the NT does it say the fundamental question is "do you subscribe to OSAS".

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Salvation is a gift of God. Eph 2:8.

I agree, but it says nothing about salvation being irrevocable: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"

Did you ignore the other verse I included in my response? Rom 11:29. Eph 2:8 establishes that salvation is a gift of God. Rom 11:29 says plainly that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Ephesians 2:8 I've noticed there seems to be some confusion on what the "gift of God" is.

It is for confused people, and people who aren't teachable.

It's not a magical "zap" that turns a person into a kind of spiritual superhero.

Right. It doesn't say that. What's the point?

The gift of God is grace through the Lord Jesus. We can accept and continue in that gift through faith or we can fall away; in which case there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 10:26).

You misunderstand Hebrews, like so many others. Go to v.18 and see what it says:

"And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary."

This is the point. Because of Jesus' sacrifice for ALL sins, animal sacrifice is "no longer necessary". Jesus did away with the Law and animal sacrifice.

So, when you get to v.26 the writer is making the same point. Jesus already sacrificed for sins. The point of 10:26 is about "willful sin". And since it's already been paid for, all that's left is God's painful discipline, which is seen in 12:11.

Romans 11:29 doesn't say anything about salvation being irrevocable, but God's promises to Israel:

Stop. The verse doesn't mention Israel. It says "God's gifts". Why would you take it on yourself to remove ANY of God's gifts from that verse? Do you have the authority? No, you don't.

It is a blanket statement about God's gifts: salvation, the Holy Spirit, God's written Word, Grace.

"And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: 'The Deliverer shall come out of Zion, and He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.' As regards to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake; but as regards to election, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Roman 11:26-29
OK, since you want to force God's gifts into the context about Israel, please show me specifically what "gifts" Paul was referring to in this context? If you can't do that, then "God's gifts" refer to ALL of them, not just what God gave Israel.

btw, where in the Bible do you read that anything God gave to the Jews was called or described as a gift?

This is talking about God's irrevocable promises made to the fathers.

How do you know that?

In fact, earlier in the chapter it says we should be cautious or God will cut us off: "That is true. By unbelief they were broken off, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps He may not spare you either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God: upon those that fell, severity; but upon you, kindness, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also shall be cut off." Romans 11:20-22

The Jews were very proud of being God's "chosen people"., which was about service to God. So to be told they could be "cut off" meant they could be removed from His service. A very serious promise to any Jew.

Are there any other scriptures?

What's wrong with accepting the plain language of John 5:24 and 10:28?

Or is this just an argument to argue?

 

[ResidentAlien]

FreeGrace2 said:
Salvation is a gift of God. Eph 2:8.

Did you ignore the other verse I included in my response? Rom 11:29. Eph 2:8 establishes that salvation is a gift of God. Rom 11:29 says plainly that the gifts of God are irrevocable.


It is for confused people, and people who aren't teachable.


Right. It doesn't say that. What's the point?


You misunderstand Hebrews, like so many others. Go to v.18 and see what it says:

"And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary."

This is the point. Because of Jesus' sacrifice for ALL sins, animal sacrifice is "no longer necessary". Jesus did away with the Law and animal sacrifice.

So, when you get to v.26 the writer is making the same point. Jesus already sacrificed for sins. The point of 10:26 is about "willful sin". And since it's already been paid for, all that's left is God's painful discipline, which is seen in 12:11.


Stop. The verse doesn't mention Israel. It says "God's gifts". Why would you take it on yourself to remove ANY of God's gifts from that verse? Do you have the authority? No, you don't.

It is a blanket statement about God's gifts: salvation, the Holy Spirit, God's written Word, Grace.

Too many words. Maybe someone else can understand this but if you expect me to read it you're going to have to get to the point, and succinctly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The OSAS crowd is saying that they will never end up in the lake of fire.

Well, actually, Jesus made that promise. You know the verses.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

According to them the minute you turn, pray and receive the redemptive work of Jesus Christ your name is written in the book of life.

The problem I have with that is

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Kicking the goads, I see. OK, the verse has a literary device known as a "litotes", which is an understatement. This verse is about eternal reward. What's the opposite of "blotting out one's name"? to be confessed before the Father. So Jesus was making a comparison by opposites. Those who "overcome", which obviously means being faithful and obedient, will be honored by being confessed before the Father in heaven. No casual thing there.

And, does the Bible say that people can be or will be removed from the book of life? No. So don't assume/presume such.

And again, IF any verse teaches that salvation can be lost, then you've just proved that Jesus is a liar or ignorant, because Jn 5:24 and 10:28 plainly state the promise of eternal life, which is based the POSSESSION of eternal life.

What about those who have their names blotted out of the book of life? Yes, at one point their names were written in the book of life, but they didn't overcome.

You are taking a litotes literally, and that is not kosher.

This is why false doctrines come about. Misunderstanding verses.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The facts are that the translations listed translate this word using those terms and those are the various terms all translations agree with as the meaning of this word.

The facts are that the word salvation is not used in that verse.

Facts.

The facts are is that Paul said GIFTS (plural)

the facts are. in the passages leading up to romans 11 (romans 5 - 6) I PROVED that eternal life and justification (salvation) was one of those GIFTS

The FACTS are that no matter how you interpret that word used in romans 11. they all mean the same

The GIFTS of God are unrepentable (will not be repented of) or irrevocable

If your going to look at fact. remove your blinders.. i proved my point, and you totally ignore it. Give me ZZZ's all you want. You just make yourself look bad..

 

[FreeGrace2]

You do not speak for everyone, FreeGrace2 and everyone else on this thread has made that very clear.

lol. I never suggested that I did. I only speak for myself and what the Bible clearly says.

2nd -- the word about having their name blotted out is written to the church in Sardis, and the condition for not having it blotted out is to overcome and that has two requirements: the Blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony.

Study up on what a litotes is. That's what you read in Rev 3:5. It isn't literal.

 

[Sipsey]

The word "if" is used to say that a particular thing can or will happen only after something else happens or becomes true.

"If" per Meriam-Webster.

If
a: in the event that
b: allowing that
c: on the assumption that
d: on condition that

Here it is again:

1 John 2:24,25 NKJV
24Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

Plainly said in my own words: if [on the condition that] what you heard from the beginning abides [remains in place] in you, you will also abide [remain in place] in the Son and in the Father, then you are promised eternal life. The eternal life can only happen after the if conditions are true.

So, the eternal life that Jesus promises, is conditional on our perfect faithfulness? (Because God’s perfect righteousness is what is required)

Just as the Law required perfect obedience, your logic dictates that perfect obedience to new ordinances are required. Seems like you simply replaced the old Law with a new one. So how do you define Grace?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What are you talking about?? John 5:24 and John 10:28 couldn't be any more clear abouty eternal security. What is it about those 2 verses that you won't accept?

I do accept them.

Then why all that goad kicking of yours with verses that you seem to think teach loss of salvation then?

Once you actually accept the clear words of Jesus in those 2 verses, you will be totally convinced that salvation cannot be taken away from you, or forfeited, or lost, or broken, or any other silly description.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Fundamental flaw in OSAS

You are kicking the goads.

Jesus is Lord.

When they tell you that your name being erased from the book of life is not referring to losing your salvation, that is their interpretation. But that means 0 because Jesus is Lord. Jesus decides who goes into the lake of fire and who doesn't.

Jesus decided before the foundation of the world. Believers receive the gift of eternal life and shall never perish. period. end of discussion.

The fundamental flaw in OSAS is that you aren't the Lord. Jesus is Lord.

By saying there is a fundamental flaw in eternal security, you are calling Jesus fundamentally flawed. So how can He be YOUR Lord when you talk like that?

When you appear before the throne that doctrine will be worth 0. That doctrine doesn't save you, Jesus saves you.

Jesus taught the doctrine, but you just keep kicking the goads.

They admit the real question is whether or not Jesus says "I never knew you". Nowhere in the NT does it say the fundamental question is "do you subscribe to OSAS".

Jesus would say that ONLY to those who never believed in Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Too many words. Maybe someone else can understand this but if you expect me to read it you're going to have to get to the point, and succinctly.

Eph 2:8 says salvation is a gift of God.
Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Clear enough?