Speaking in Tongues

[hornetguy]

i guess you missed the point that you revealed your own willful ignorance of the Scripture thru mockery.

Which you again expressed with misapplication a second time = "It was a criticism of theologians who spent their efforts arguing about inconsequential and ridiculous things instead of advancing our knowledge of God."

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and
who correctly handles the word of truth."

Do your very best today, dear Brother in Christ, for our Heavenly Father watches and listens.

Your condescension is not needed, and reflects very badly on you.

You fail to see that you two are arguing over something that is absolutely inonsequential.... except, apparently, to you.
That is exactly what Paul was warning Timothy against... but I'm sure it certainly doesn't apply to you.... after all, it's just scripture.

 

[DavidTree]

Your condescension is not needed, and reflects very badly on you.

You fail to see that you two are arguing over something that is absolutely inonsequential.... except, apparently, to you.
That is exactly what Paul was warning Timothy against... but I'm sure it certainly doesn't apply to you.... after all, it's just scripture.

Your condenscending of the Holy Spirit in the Holy Scriptures is appaling.

You choose to and completely fail to see what the Holy Spirit recorded for us in Acts.

Lol = The very thing you accuse, you commit = "instead of advancing our knowledge of God."

Because of your blindness you now misapply scripture a third time AGAIN = "instead of advancing our knowledge of God."

Maybe look into this more closely with a humble heart before the LORD.

Reexamine your words as they pertain to Scripture whereby you unabashedly claim = "they have little value and are inconsequencial"

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Well, there's these Pentecostals...

Without getting too complicated, Apostolic Pentecostals believe “Father,” ‘’Son” and “Holy Spirit” aren’t three distinct persons, but three different titles for one person: Jesus.

The group also believes you must speak in tongues to be saved, a practice known as glossolalia, which involves uttering a foreign language previously unknown to the speaker.

.... and the Assemblies of God.....

Pentecostals are so certain of this logic that many consider it to be a key teaching of the Christian faith. For example, the Assemblies of God, the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world, has 16 Fundamental Truths. Number eight is this: “The baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is witnessed by the initial physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives them utterance.”
Here then is the Pentecostal logic:

• All followers of Jesus should be baptized in the Holy Spirit, which will empower them to be Christ’s witnesses.
• The initial physical evidence of this baptism is speaking in tongues.
• Therefore, all believers should speak in tongues.

as far as Speaking in Tongues is concerned, if you went strictly by what Jesus said in Mark 16 [[ 17 These signs will accompany those who believe: in My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues]]...they are basically saying the same thing Jesus Himself said.

 

[hornetguy]

Your condenscending of the Holy Spirit in the Holy Scriptures is appaling.

You choose to and completely fail to see what the Holy Spirit recorded for us in Acts.

Lol = The very thing you accuse, you commit = "instead of advancing our knowledge of God."

Because of your blindness you now misapply scripture a third time AGAIN = "instead of advancing our knowledge of God."

Maybe look into this more closely with a humble heart before the LORD.

Reexamine your words as they pertain to Scripture whereby you unabashedly claim = "they have little value and are inconsequencial"

And you presume, in your arrogance and condescension, to know what I see and don't see about how the Spirit moves and works in our lives.
If I don't agree with you, then I have no understanding of the word, and the Spirit.
Telling me how to approach the Lord is just arrogant beyond belief.
I believe I'm going to have to be done with you and your holier than thou attitude.... you simply are not worth it.

 

[hornetguy]

as far as Speaking in Tongues is concerned, if you went strictly by what Jesus said in Mark 16 [[ 17 These signs will accompany those who believe: in My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues]]...they are basically saying the same thing Jesus Himself said.

So, if I give you a bottle of rat poison, you should be able to chug it down and not be affected at all.... right? That's what that the scripture says.. If you want to show us the signs that you have "believed"... ?

 

[Beckie]

it's in the gospels

What is in the gospels is the fact that John baptized Jesus.

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mar 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Luk 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Which of these or any other passage tells us Christs' anointing came form John. I read them to say the anointing came from heaven like a dove.

 

[shittim]

By way of John, in obedience.
When you read of John the Baptists story you see that he was filled with Holy Spirit in the womb.

 

[DavidTree]

And you presume, in your arrogance and condescension, to know what I see and don't see about how the Spirit moves and works in our lives.
If I don't agree with you, then I have no understanding of the word, and the Spirit.
Telling me how to approach the Lord is just arrogant beyond belief.
I believe I'm going to have to be done with you and your holier than thou attitude.... you simply are not worth it.

Your heart revealed = "I(you) believe I'm going to have to be done with you and your holier than thou attitude.... you simply are not worth it."

lol - You just keep digging that hole of pride.

After you cool your head = look back on all that you posted = from the very first post you made, from your heart, directed at the Scriptures and myself.
and
Know this = i'm here for you.

 

[ResidentAlien]

hornetguy has the right idea.

 

[Beckie]

By way of John, in obedience.
When you read of John the Baptists story you see that he was filled with Holy Spirit in the womb.

Yes John was filled in the womb. Yes John was obedient. Where in Scriptures do they tell us The anointing of Christ came from John?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

just remember the facts:

the Church Fathers tells us the Gifts will be here until that [which is PREFECT] which is when we see God face to face.
since that's not happened yet, Perfect has not come.

so as we see, these Church Fathers tells us that the PERFECT TO COME is when we see God [face to face].

none of us have seen God face to face so we can deduct that Speaking in Tongues is still active today.

BINGO!!! it's the "pentehostiles"/"cessationists" that can't do it / don't understand it / don't believe in it / don't want anybody else to have anything to do with it who are the ones with the problem.

 

[hornetguy]

hornetguy has the right idea.

I'm not normally one to ignore people, but this one is just mind-bogglingly absorbed in self-righteousness.
Everything he is doing, he turns around and accuses me of doing.... it's like living in bizarro world.... I just don't have the time or inclination to play those kinds of games.
Now, hopefully, back to sane, back and forth discussions....

 

[Beckie]

By way of John, in obedience.
When you read of John the Baptists story you see that he was filled with Holy Spirit in the womb.

Here Jesus is quoting OT scripture...
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Do you read this to say The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he ( insert John the Baptist here) hath anointed me . Is Jesus speaking of the Lord of of John the Baptist?..
i read it to say the spirit of the lord is upon me because he {the Lord} hath anointed me.

 

[DavidTree]

I'm not normally one to ignore people, but this one is just mind-bogglingly absorbed in self-righteousness.
Everything he is doing, he turns around and accuses me of doing.... it's like living in bizarro world.... I just don't have the time or inclination to play those kinds of games.
Now, hopefully, back to sane, back and forth discussions....

Prove it or remain a hypocrite and a liar.

Your very first post that you addressed me today convicts you.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

So, if I give you a bottle of rat poison, you should be able to chug it down and not be affected at all.... right? That's what that the scripture says.. If you want to show us the signs that you have "believed"... ?

if i had no idea it was rat poison i believe it's definitely possible. but if i know it's rat poison then it is TEMPTING God. there's a big difference between not TEMPTING God and something happening without knowledge of it.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

BINGO!!! it's the "pentehostiles"/"cessationists" that can't do it / don't understand it / don't believe in it / don't want anybody else to have anything to do with it who are the ones with the problem.

Amen!

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, if I give you a bottle of rat poison, you should be able to chug it down and not be affected at all.... right?

We don't hear too much about the snake handlers of Appalachia any more since some of them were bitten when they handled poisonous snakes, and some died. As for rat poison they will say "Oh! Rats!"

 

[DJT_47]

just remember the facts:

the Church Fathers tells us the Gifts will be here until that [which is PREFECT] which is when we see God face to face.
since that's not happened yet, Perfect has not come.

the debate is Tongues ends when that which is PERFECT has come.

i tend to use resources closest to the source like the Church Fathers who chose to write about this.

so as we see, these Church Fathers tells us that the PERFECT TO COME is when we see God [face to face].

none of us have seen God face to face so we can deduct that Speaking in Tongues is still active today.

Hello watcher 2017. Please see below a repost of mine on the subject of the gifts which also addresses your statement regarding "the perfect is come" and "face to face".

REPOST

Very difficult subject (spiritual gifts) which is why there's so much controversy, and equally difficult to unravel and explain. But let me explain it this way.

First, look at the way Paul started his letter to the Corinthians starting at 1 Cor1:10 where he's discussing contentions and divisions in Corinth and the need for unity which sets the stage for the rest of 1 Corinthians.

Also keep in mind, this was written to them in their time, addressing their near term issues, and not to us nor considering some event in the distant future.

And too, keep in mind that the early church was a fledgling body with little to guide and hold it together, and prone to division, contention, and falling away, such as was also warned about in the Hebrew letter as well.
You have to first ask yourself and answer the question as to what is "that which is perfect"?
The aforementioned question and answer to it is found in Ephesians 4:13 wherein it discusses 'till we all come to the unity of the faith unto a perfect man, the perfect man being the perfection of the body of Christ: this being then the previous need for the miraculous manifestation of the various gifts noted in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. We now have the bible to guide us and no longer need the piece meal parts of the body.

The "face to face" and "known as we are known" is relating to the distinction between the old testament readings, and coming to Christ via the New Testament and the comparison to the veil in reading Moses, and we now, they then, being able to look into a glass or mirror and seeing a reflection of Christ as opposed to our own image. Ref below 1 Cor 13:12 and below 2 Cor 3 primarily verse 18 to understand what "face to face" is, namely, now we can, as they could, see a reflection of Christ metaphorically when looking into a mirror or "glass" because we now have Christ as they also did then, and are part of him, as opposed to under the old covenant as noted with the Moses comparison or analogy, or when Moses is read as was stated in the scripture.

To piece it all together, you must look at the gifts and the logic in, and need for them at that time, all being necessary in the early church to edify it, as well as to grow the church such as by use of tongues, being a sign to unbelievers.

I've posted all the pertinent parts of scriptures from 1 Cor 12, 13, Galatians 3, and Ephesians 4. Look very closely at the similarity of words used and phraseology and piece those similar words and phrases together to get the true picture of their meaning as relates to the subject matter.

1 Corinthians 12:8-31
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many.

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Corinthians 3:7-18
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Galatians 3:23-27
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:7-16
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[hornetguy]

if i had no idea it was rat poison i believe it's definitely possible. but if i know it's rat poison then it is TEMPTING God. there's a big difference between not TEMPTING God and something happening without knowledge of it.

Tempting God? How in the world would you come to that conclusion? The scripture you guys are touting SAYS that drinking poison is one of the "signs" that accompany believers. A sign is used to SHOW that something is real... it is PROOF. It is not tempting God at all, it's actually PROVING God..... if you believe that scripture to be 100% scripture.
it's either true, or it's not.

Personally, I believe it was added later, after Mark wrote and finished this letter.... but I've been told that it is almost certainly original... so, if you believe it, then you should be willing to show ALL the signs mentioned. They are "signs" are they not?

and, we haven't even gotten started on poisonous snakes...

 

[hornetguy]

To refresh everyone's memory.... this is the passage of scripture being discussed... NASB version. And I had missed Nehemiah6's mentioning of snake handling...

4 Later He appeared to the eleven disciples themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reprimanded them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen from the dead. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”