The offer of Salvation is universal, but the application is only : "by Faith".

[ForestGreenCook]

Forest believes even those who do not believe are saved.

I agree: he makes no sense.


He just did the same to me

John 12:37 - And if any man hear my words, and believeth not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jesus eternally saved the world of God's elect by redeeming them from their sins on the cross.

2 Tim 2:13 - If (we are in Christ and) we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

Salvation, according to Greek translation, means "a deliverance".

Believing in the things of the Spirit is not the cause that saves (delivers) us eternally, but is a product of those that have already been saved (delivered) and can save (deliver) his born again children many times, as we sojourn here on earth.

 

[Magenta]

2 Tim 2:13 - If (we are in Christ and) we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

Remind the believers of these things, 2 Timothy 2:14a

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Remind the believers of these things, 2 Timothy 2:14a

And so, what point are you trying to make with verse 14?

What is your interpretation of verse 13?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Your Hyper Calvinistic hobbyhorse does not hunt. The atonement only avails those who choose to come to Jesus. It is a fact that God has foreknowledge. That simply means that He knows who will choose Him.

The unregenerate person will not come to anything that is spiritual. What do you mean by the phrase "come to Jesus"?

 

[Komentaja]

It is the very same word in every case, as shown in post #406 above. So you
are the one improperly reading and failing to grasp what is plainly written.

You completely missed the point that i was joking. DIdnt this part reveal it:

"
See there you go. All you had to do was add something to the Bible and now the doctrine makes sense. The non-elect just dont get it

"

 

[oyster67]

Just to be accurate, it doesn't say what God foreknew, but who He foreknew. The foreknowledge is of the person and not their choice.
I leave each person to make of this what they will, but we needn't change the scripture to suit our theology but our theology is subject to the scripture.

Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 

[oyster67]

What do you mean by the phrase "come to Jesus"?

Isaiah 55:1
“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.”

 

[Cameron143]

Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Romans 8:29...For whom He did foreknow.....

This is what I was referring to. The subject was salvation and not the purpose and plan of God as Isaiah 46 refers to.

 

[Evmur]

What I would like others to do, is to give book, chapter and verse with their comments.

Does he take away the sins of the following worlds?

John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him, but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15:18 - 19, If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his mown, but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 16:20 - Verly, verly, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice, and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall turn into joy.

John 17:14 - I have given them the word, and the world hateth them.

1 John 2:15 - Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

There is world of wicked people, and there is a world of believers.

I have listed several scriptures that describe the world of the wicked, and here are a few scriptures that describe the world of believers;

1 John 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 4:42 - We know that this is indeed the Christ. The Saviour of the world.

The limitation is not in the atonement. We have all had our share in what you call the wicked world.

 

[Evmur]

Then you should plainly see from the scriptures of John 15:19, 17:9, and 1 John 2:15 that there is a world that God hates.

God does not hate the world, the world hates God.

 

[Cameron143]

The limitation is not in the atonement. We have all had our share in what you call the wicked world.

His argument is for limited atonement based on limited love. The argument could better be made from Romans 9 which states...Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. How do you reconcile this? Also, if you would please explain on what basis God condemns people to hell if everyone's sins are no longer held against them. Thanks.

 

[Evmur]

The unregenerate person will not come to anything that is spiritual. What do you mean by the phrase "come to Jesus"?

But God draws us with cords of love. The particularity of redemption is in the act of God's drawing men to Christ.

Ultimately He draws ALL men unto the cross ... some unto salvation but some unto judgement. THAT is the doctrine of Particular Redemption or Electing love.

The cross which becomes a sweet fragrance of life for some is the foul stench of death to others.

This is a hard doctrine for many but it is true. Predestiny and election based upon God's foreknowledge. God simply knows who we are and where we are, He placed us in the womb.

 

[oyster67]

God does not hate the world, the world hates God.

Amen

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[soberxp]

In fact, you just need to be obedient like a sheep.

 

[oyster67]

Also, if you would please explain on what basis God condemns people to hell if everyone's sins are no longer held against them. Thanks.

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Our sin's will be held against us if we do not come to the Light.

 

[Evmur]

His argument is for limited atonement based on limited love. The argument could better be made from Romans 9 which states...Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. How do you reconcile this? Also, if you would please explain on what basis God condemns people to hell if everyone's sins are no longer held against them. Thanks.

First we must understand that all Romans 9 means is that God preferred Jacob over Esau for what? to be saved? no but to be the blessing of Abraham, the church, the people of God through whom God intended and does intend to bless the families of the earth.

Predestiny and election was never about salvation it has always been about being conformed to the image of God's Son. To be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace

To exclude everybody? no never, never. But that through US the lost and lonely might find their way to God. We are chosen [elect] to be a city set upon a hill ... not to exclude but to be a beacon of hope.

... others can still be saved.

 

[oyster67]

The Church is predestined for Heaven. It is up to us whether or not we will be in that number when the Saints go marching in.

 

[Cameron143]

First we must understand that all Romans 9 means is that God preferred Jacob over Esau for what? to be saved? no but to be the blessing of Abraham, the church, the people of God through whom God intended and does intend to bless the families of the earth.

Predestiny and election was never about salvation it has always been about being conformed to the image of God's Son. To be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace

To exclude everybody? no never, never. But that through US the lost and lonely might find their way to God. We are chosen [elect] to be a city set upon a hill ... not to exclude but to be a beacon of hope.

... others can still be saved.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer. I agree that the terms love and hate don't have the same emphasis we generally accord to them today but they clearly delineate 2 groups of people. And 1 group always represents those who are saved despite their obvious rebellion and the other never comes to a place of salvation.
How do you reconcile the potter and clay and the vessels of mercy and destruction?

 

[oyster67]

His argument is for limited atonement based on limited love. The argument could better be made from Romans 9 which states...Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. How do you reconcile this? Also, if you would please explain on what basis God condemns people to hell if everyone's sins are no longer held against them. Thanks.

This is a reference to the Old Testament. This shows us how God hates sin. God destroyed many people in the OT who opposed Jacob. The wicked nations of the OT are a picture of rebellion against God. God hates the Spirit of opposition and rebellion against Himself. We are fortunate to have the opportunity to come under the protection of Christ's Blood. The point is that God has made this salvation available to all. The fact still remains that all who despise Christ's sacrifice and neglect His call will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Malachi 1:3 Context
1The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever. 5And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel. 6A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

God so loved the world that He gave His Son, but woe to those who neglect such great salvation.

 

[oyster67]

How do you reconcile the potter and clay and the vessels of mercy and destruction?

As we previously spoke of, God knows who will reject Him. He will use them to accomplish His will anyway.