Christians Are Not Sinners

[FreeGrace2]

OK. I'll proceed again in trying to be more clear again.

My comment, ''wanna bet?'', was speaking to what you told Running Man in the prior post. My comment was clearly directed at your closing remark to him and that I put in bold red font so to make it stand out and therein be what my wanna bet comment pertained to.

More simply, you said RM couldn't refute your post, not a direct quote. I bet ya you were mistaken.

Clear now?

I was clear then. RM can't refute my post, or verses. And I asked you to proceed if you think my post CAN be refuted.

Am I clear now?

 

[VARob]

you had better do a research on that piece of scripture and you will find out that the chief here is in the past tense ------Paul is telling them that he was --used in the past tense the worst sinner -------

1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Your trying to take this one piece of scripture and make it say what you think it says ---he is not calling himself a sinner here

1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
first, beginning, best, chief
Contracted superlative of pro; foremost (in time, place, order or importance) -- before, , chief(-est), first (of all), former.

Paul is saying he was a former sinner here ---it is so important to do your research so you rightly divide the word ---not wrongly divide it -------

You are misunderstanding Strongs. The word means "first," "former" as opposed to latter (not in time..). "First in rank."

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Your biggest error was when you addressed John 10:28 and COMPLETELY IGNORED the KEY phrase: "and they shall never perish".

I didn't ignore John 10:28.

Please direct your eyeballs upward and read my quote. I never said you didn't addess 10:28. I SAID you ignored the phrase "and shall never perish". Totally ignored it. As if it didn't exist.

I showed you they get eternal life "in the age to come" according to Luke 18:30

Let's just stay with 5:24. In THAT verse, Jesus said whoever believes possesses eternal life. Period. Luke 18;30 is referring to eternity itself, not the gift, which is given WHEN a person becomes a believer, according to 5:24.

Ignoring "and shall never perish" is a felony. And you are guilty.

 

[VARob]

Christian=Christ Like.

Christ did not see himself as a sinner.

Christ wasn't a sinner. The rest of us are.

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
Your biggest error was when you addressed John 10:28 and COMPLETELY IGNORED the KEY phrase: "and they shall never perish".

Please direct your eyeballs upward and read my quote. I never said you didn't addess 10:28. I SAID you ignored the phrase "and shall never perish". Totally ignored it. As if it didn't exist.


Let's just stay with 5:24. In THAT verse, Jesus said whoever believes possesses eternal life. Period. Luke 18;30 is referring to eternity itself, not the gift, which is given WHEN a person becomes a believer, according to 5:24.

Ignoring "and shall never perish" is a felony. And you are guilty.

I didn't ignore "and shall never perish" in John 10:28. I addressed it by quoting that a lost sheep can perish according to Matthew 18:10-14. I explained how.

Once eternal life has been given and one is immortal it is then that they can never perish. It's after the resurrection. The Bible is conclusive about this.

Luke 20:36
36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:53,54
53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Revelation 21:3,4
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man,
and He will dwell with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
4‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”

I think I understand why you are rejecting what the Bible says about this. If you accept what I am showing you then there will be a chain reaction that results in having to come to terms with many of your false doctrines. This is called growing pains. Growth hurts, but it's better we do this now than never.

 

[VARob]

I didn't ignore "and shall never perish" in John 10:28. I addressed it by quoting that a lost sheep can perish according to Matthew 18:10-14. I explained how.

Once eternal life has been given and one is immortal it is then that they can never perish. It's after the resurrection. The Bible is conclusive about this.

Luke 20:36
36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:53,54
53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Revelation 21:3,4
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man,
and He will dwell with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
4‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”

I think I understand why you are rejecting what the Bible says about this. If you accept what I am showing you then there will be a chain reaction of many your false doctrines you'll have to come to terms with.

I agree with FG2 about this. Salvation for Christians is permanent, it cannot be lost. With the Christian new birth, we are sons of God NOW (1 John 3:2). A son cannot become an un-son. We are figuratively seated in the heavenlies (Eph 2:6), indicating it's a done deal. We are SEALED unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14). If a person confesses Jesus as Lord and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead, he SHALL BE saved (Rom 10:9).

Christians aren't working for salvation, but for rewards, our position in the kingdom. There will be a huge difference between a Christian who did his best to serve Christ, who will be richly welcomed (2 Pet 1:11 NIV) into the kingdom, and a pew-warmer Christian who will get in only as one escaping through a fire (1 Cor 3:15).

 

[studentoftheword]

You are misunderstanding Strongs. The word means "first," "former" as opposed to latter (not in time..). "First in rank."

No your misunderstanding strong's -------and your taking the scripture out of context ------as verse 13 --here says it all -----and clears up verse 15 -----and in 16 he says he obtained Mercy -----as a sinner

13 Though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and was shamefully and outrageously and aggressively insulting [to Him], nevertheless, I obtained mercy because I had acted out of ignorance in unbelief.

I say ----so he is telling people here that he was formerly a SINNER ------He is not calling himself a Sinner now because he is a Saint ----and you can't be a Sinner and a Saint at the same time ----your either a Sinner or your a Saint


This is the AMPC version ----the whole section ------read the whole piece ------below

12 I give thanks to Him Who has granted me [the needed] strength and made me able [for this], Christ Jesus our Lord, because He has judged and counted me faithful and trustworthy, appointing me to [this stewardship of] the ministry.

13 Though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and was shamefully and outrageously and aggressively insulting [to Him], nevertheless, I obtained mercy because I had acted out of ignorance in unbelief.

14 And the grace (unmerited favor and blessing) of our Lord [actually] flowed out superabundantly and beyond measure for me, accompanied by faith and love that are [to be realized] in Christ Jesus.

15 The saying is sure and true and worthy of full and universal acceptance, that Christ Jesus (the Messiah) came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am foremost.

16 But I obtained mercy for the reason that in me, as the foremost [of sinners], Jesus Christ might show forth and display all His perfect long-suffering and patience for an example to [encourage] those who would thereafter believe on Him for [the gaining of] eternal life.

17 Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible and immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever (to the ages of ages). Amen (so be it).

 

[VARob]

No your misunderstanding strong's -------and your taking the scripture out of context ------as verse 13 --here says it all -----and clears up verse 15 -----and in 16 he says he obtained Mercy -----as a sinner

13 Though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and was shamefully and outrageously and aggressively insulting [to Him], nevertheless, I obtained mercy because I had acted out of ignorance in unbelief.

I say ----so he is telling people here that he was formerly a SINNER ------He is not calling himself a Sinner now because he is a Saint ----and you can't be a Sinner and a Saint at the same time ----your either a Sinner or your a Saint


This is the AMPC version ----the whole section ------read the whole piece ------below

12 I give thanks to Him Who has granted me [the needed] strength and made me able [for this], Christ Jesus our Lord, because He has judged and counted me faithful and trustworthy, appointing me to [this stewardship of] the ministry.

13 Though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and was shamefully and outrageously and aggressively insulting [to Him], nevertheless, I obtained mercy because I had acted out of ignorance in unbelief.

14 And the grace (unmerited favor and blessing) of our Lord [actually] flowed out superabundantly and beyond measure for me, accompanied by faith and love that are [to be realized] in Christ Jesus.

15 The saying is sure and true and worthy of full and universal acceptance, that Christ Jesus (the Messiah) came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am foremost.

16 But I obtained mercy for the reason that in me, as the foremost [of sinners], Jesus Christ might show forth and display all His perfect long-suffering and patience for an example to [encourage] those who would thereafter believe on Him for [the gaining of] eternal life.

17 Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible and immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever (to the ages of ages). Amen (so be it).

Don't forget Romans 7...

People are going to believe as they wish.

I know that even though I am declared righteous through Christ, I am still a sinner. I still sin. I try to do so less and less, but I will never not be a sinner until Christ returns.

I thank God that I am a saved sinner.

 

[Runningman]

I agree with FG2 about this. Salvation for Christians is permanent, it cannot be lost. With the Christian new birth, we are sons of God NOW (1 John 3:2). A son cannot become an un-son. We are figuratively seated in the heavenlies (Eph 2:6), indicating it's a done deal. We are SEALED unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14). If a person confesses Jesus as Lord and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead, he SHALL BE saved (Rom 10:9).

Christians aren't working for salvation, but for rewards, our position in the kingdom. There will be a huge difference between a Christian who did his best to serve Christ, who will be richly welcomed (2 Pet 1:11 NIV) into the kingdom, and a pew-warmer Christian who will get in only as one escaping through a fire (1 Cor 3:15).

And I agree with every verse you mentioned. I think the major difference we are at odds on is that I believe continued faith is required for salvation and FG2 seems to think one can lose faith and they’re still saved.

So specifically on that point, you think someone can be saved if they abandon the faith? You’re right that someone can’t be “unsonned”, but are you truly understanding what it means to be a son and what’s possibly at stake?

What happened to these sons of the Kingdom of Heaven in the passage below?

Matthew 8:10-12
10When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

[studentoftheword]

I know that even though I am declared righteous through Christ, I am still a sinner. I still sin. I try to do so less and less, but I will never not be a sinner until Christ returns.

you can call yourself whatever you like ------but if you call yourself a sinner ---than that is what you are ---and what you identify yourself with is what you will continue to do ---sin

God has given His Saints His Grace to call on to stay out of Sin ----- and that is what a Saint does --calls on God's Grace to strengthen us to keep from sinning -----in our weakness His Grace is our strength ---as He said to Paul ------so Folks keep your mind in Sainthood not Sinhood -----that is what I say and what I do ----

 

[Snacks]

“I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.”

I proclaim Jesus Christ is Lord, hence I am led by the Holy Spirit. On another note, I sinned today. Now how is it possible for me, a Christian, to have sinned if Christians aren’t sinners?

 

[Runningman]

“I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.”

I proclaim Jesus Christ is Lord, hence I am led by the Holy Spirit. On another note, I sinned today. Now how is it possible for me, a Christian, to have sinned if Christians aren’t sinners?

Jesus is Lord and I agree with the point you're making.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't ignore "and shall never perish" in John 10:28. I addressed it by quoting that a lost sheep can perish according to Matthew 18:10-14.

A lost sheep is a sheep that never believed. According to John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12. If you really believe that Matt 18 refutes John 10:28, you are beyond help.

Jesus very clearly said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. That's an ABSOLUTE. No wriggle room for your theories.

And bringing in another passage with a DIFFERENT context is unforgivable. You should know better.

If Matt 18 means what you think, Jesus WOULD HAVE HAD TO include that exclusion in John 10:28.

I explained how.

Once eternal life has been given and one is immortal it is then that they can never perish. It's after the resurrection. The Bible is conclusive about this.

Yes, the Bible IS. And John 5:24 informs us of WHEN a person possesses eternal life. When they become a believer. That is so because Jesus SAID "whoever believes HAS eternal life". You can't refute this.

Luke 20:36
36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:53,54
53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Revelation 21:3,4
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man,
and He will dwell with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
4‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”

Where do any of these verses say that a recipient of eternal life can perish?

I think I understand why you are rejecting what the Bible says about this.

You are the rejector. Jesus said "whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life." Then He said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

You don't believe that and in fact, are trying very hard to refute what He said by verses that aren't even related to either John 5:24 or 10:28.

If you accept what I am showing you then there will be a chain reaction that results in having to come to terms with many of your false doctrines.

I believe the very clear and straightforward words of Jesus, unlike YOU.

This is called growing pains. Growth hurts, but it's better we do this now than never.

It is clear that reasoning with you isn't possible.

Jesus gives believers eternal life. Jn 5:24. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Jn 10:28

Jesus couldn't have been any more clear when teaching eternal security.

 

[Runningman]

A lost sheep is a sheep that never believed. According to John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12. If you really believe that Matt 18 refutes John 10:28, you are beyond help.

Jesus very clearly said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. That's an ABSOLUTE. No wriggle room for your theories.

And bringing in another passage with a DIFFERENT context is unforgivable. You should know better.

If Matt 18 means what you think, Jesus WOULD HAVE HAD TO include that exclusion in John 10:28.


Yes, the Bible IS. And John 5:24 informs us of WHEN a person possesses eternal life. When they become a believer. That is so because Jesus SAID "whoever believes HAS eternal life". You can't refute this.


Where do any of these verses say that a recipient of eternal life can perish?


You are the rejector. Jesus said "whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life." Then He said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

You don't believe that and in fact, are trying very hard to refute what He said by verses that aren't even related to either John 5:24 or 10:28.


I believe the very clear and straightforward words of Jesus, unlike YOU.


It is clear that reasoning with you isn't possible.

Jesus gives believers eternal life. Jn 5:24. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Jn 10:28

Jesus couldn't have been any more clear when teaching eternal security.

Nope. Keep studying.

 

[TMS]

Jesus couldn't have been any more clear when teaching eternal security.

If i accept Jesus when I'm young and reject Jesus when i get older am i still saved?
Do you believe in probation?

I do believe in Eternal security once we are judged. Until the judgement day or our probation ends God does not force us to remain in His grace saved.

Saul, or Paul in the old testament was faithfull at first but ended up being unfaithful. 1 Sam 9...

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Rom 14: 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ...... 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[VARob]

And I agree with every verse you mentioned. I think the major difference we are at odds on is that I believe continued faith is required for salvation and FG2 seems to think one can lose faith and they’re still saved.

If continued faith is required, then the Holy Spirit is not the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).

So specifically on that point, you think someone can be saved if they abandon the faith?

Yes, I do. They will be one of the ones who are saved as one escaping through a fire (1 Cor 3:15).

You’re right that someone can’t be “unsonned”, but are you truly understanding what it means to be a son and what’s possibly at stake?

A son is by birth. The new birth is what makes us sons of God.
If salvation is not permanent, then salvation is at stake.

What happened to these sons of the Kingdom of Heaven in the passage below?

Matthew 8:10-12
10When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

I believe that in that verse "sons of the kingdom" is referring to ethnic Israel, not Christians. The Christian new birth was not available until the day of Pentecost. It's a huge deal. If the devil had known about it he would not have crucified Jesus (1 Cor 2:7-8).

 

[VARob]

you can call yourself whatever you like ------but if you call yourself a sinner ---than that is what you are ---and what you identify yourself with is what you will continue to do ---sin

I'm not a sinner because I call myself a sinner, I call myself a sinner because I still sin.

God has given His Saints His Grace to call on to stay out of Sin ----- and that is what a Saint does --calls on God's Grace to strengthen us to keep from sinning -----in our weakness His Grace is our strength ---as He said to Paul ------so Folks keep your mind in Sainthood not Sinhood -----that is what I say and what I do ----

Are you claiming you no longer sin?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nope. Keep studying.

It is YOU who needs to study. You can't even figure out what Jesus said so very clearly.

He said believers possess eternal life, and shall never perish. Couldn't be more clear. But you are so confused by what ever you studied, you can't even understand Jesus when He taught eternal security.

Those who believe in Christ are given eternal life WHEN they believe (John 5:24) and shall never perish (Jn 10:28).

What do you think about John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12? Both verses say that condemnation (going to the LOF) is for those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed".

How do you want to twist these verses?

And how do you twist Eph 1:13,14 which says "having believed" the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a GUARANTEE of their inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

 

[Runningman]

It is YOU who needs to study. You can't even figure out what Jesus said so very clearly.

He said believers possess eternal life, and shall never perish. Couldn't be more clear. But you are so confused by what ever you studied, you can't even understand Jesus when He taught eternal security.

Those who believe in Christ are given eternal life WHEN they believe (John 5:24) and shall never perish (Jn 10:28).

What do you think about John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12? Both verses say that condemnation (going to the LOF) is for those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed".

How do you want to twist these verses?

And how do you twist Eph 1:13,14 which says "having believed" the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a GUARANTEE of their inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession.

Yes believers have eternal life. Non believers don’t. What isn’t clear about that?

 

[VARob]

Yes believers have eternal life. Non believers don’t. What isn’t clear about that?

Since Pentecost, people who believed are born again of the Holy Spirit. It's a birth. You cannot get unborn.