Christians Are Not Sinners

[FreeGrace2]

If i accept Jesus when I'm young and reject Jesus when i get older am i still saved?

I don't know what you mean by "accept Jesus". Evangelicals have gotten very sloppy with their choice of words so you need to be clear for me to answer. If you mean "have saving faith in Jesus" when you were young, then you were given eternal life, according to Jesus in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

So, if all this is true, then regardless of how many very stupid and bad choices you make when older, recipients of eternal life shall never perish, per Jesus in John 10:28.

However, I don't recommend it. The Bible also teaches that God's discipline towards His children is PAINFUL. Heb 12:11. See also 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Cor 5:5, 1 Tim 1:19,20.

Do you believe in probation?

Yes, it occurs in the American judicial system. But NO, it does not exist in the Bible.

I do believe in Eternal security once we are judged.

Unfortunately, you have no verses to back that up. The Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ will occur after all believers are resurrected.

Until the judgement day or our probation ends God does not force us to remain in His grace saved.

Prove this with Scripture.

Saul, or Paul in the old testament was faithfull at first but ended up being unfaithful. 1 Sam 9...

How 'bout that! Yet, when God allowed Samuel to attend a seance, what did he tell ol' Saul?

1 Sam 28:19 - The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

Now, just what do you suppose Samuel was referring to by "be with me tomorrow"? Just some hole in the ground? No. He was a believer and was in Paradise.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This doesn't help you. Everyone is appointed to die physically once. But, believers who are alive and remain when Jesus comes back won't die physically; they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. They are exceptions.

Unbelievers, however, will physically die TWICE. The second physical death will be when they are cast into the LOF.

Rom 14: 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ...... 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

I don't know what this verse has to do with your "probation" view.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Do you think this judgment is about whether those who appear will go to heaven or hell? That would be real weird since all believers who have already died are already IN heaven, awaiting their trip back to earth with the King of kings at the Second Advent.

The Bema will occur after ALL believers are resurrected/glorified when He comes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes believers have eternal life. Non believers don’t. What isn’t clear about that?

So far so good. But what you continue to REFUSE to believe is that believers are given eternal life when they become believers, per John 5:24. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, per John 10:28.

I shared John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 which both teach that condemnation is for those who "have not believed". That doesn't include those who USED TO believe but later ceased to believe.

Once belief, no condemnation. Basically the same thing Jesus said in John 10:28; once given eternal life, never perish.

The Bible is thoroughly consistent.

Your views are unbiblical.

You wrongly think that the gift of eternal life is held in abeyance until the Bema judgment, and then only given to the goody two shoes. And the rest will be cast into the LOF.

Malarkey.

 

[Runningman]

If continued faith is required, then the Holy Spirit is not the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).

I recommend keep reading from there. Ephesians is a quick read and Paul talks about a lot of great things for the believers, but then goes on to encourage them to not live in sin. One of his points is this:

Ephesians 5:5-7
5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.7Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul just said the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience. If the church is not appointed to wrath, but sons of disobedience have wrath coming for them, it means more than simply believing. Continued faith is required.

Yes, I do. They will be one of the ones who are saved as one escaping through a fire (1 Cor 3:15).

What’s your take on the passages that require continued belief?

1 Corinthians 15:1,2 being one of those verses:

1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

A son is by birth. The new birth is what makes us sons of God.
If salvation is not permanent, then salvation is at stake.

Agreed. That seems to be what the New Testament is saying in many places.

I believe that in that verse "sons of the kingdom" is referring to ethnic Israel, not Christians. The Christian new birth was not available until the day of Pentecost. It's a huge deal. If the devil had known about it he would not have crucified Jesus (1 Cor 2:7-8).

It may have been spoken about ethnic Israel in that passage, but I don’t believe it’s limited to them.

In Ephesians 5:5-7 Paul is talking to Gentiles about sons and saying that it’s possible for them to not have any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

 

[Runningman]

So far so good. But what you continue to REFUSE to believe is that believers are given eternal life when they become believers, per John 5:24. And Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, per John 10:28.

I shared John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 which both teach that condemnation is for those who "have not believed". That doesn't include those who USED TO believe but later ceased to believe.

Once belief, no condemnation. Basically the same thing Jesus said in John 10:28; once given eternal life, never perish.

The Bible is thoroughly consistent.

Your views are unbiblical.

You wrongly think that the gift of eternal life is held in abeyance until the Bema judgment, and then only given to the goody two shoes. And the rest will be cast into the LOF.

Malarkey.

Believers are those who continue believing. I’m not budging an inch on that unless the Bible says otherwise.

Got any verses that say that those who abandon the faith are saved?

 

[VARob]

How 'bout that! Yet, when God allowed Samuel to attend a seance, what did he tell ol' Saul?

God did not "allow Samuel to attend a seance." It wasn't Samuel, Samuel had died. It was a devil spirit impersonating Samuel.

1 Sam 28:19 - The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

Now, just what do you suppose Samuel was referring to by "be with me tomorrow"? Just some hole in the ground? No. He was a believer and was in Paradise.

The devil spirit was telling Saul that he and his sons would be dead.

..this is perhaps another topic...

 

[VARob]

I recommend keep reading from there. Ephesians is a quick read and Paul talks about a lot of great things for the believers, but then goes on to encourage them to not live in sin. One of his points is this:

Ephesians 5:5-7
5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

They may not have any inheritance, but they will be saved (1 Cor 3:15).

6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.7Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul just said the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience. If the church is not appointed to wrath, but sons of disobedience have wrath coming for them, it means more than simply believing. Continued faith is required.

"Sons of disobedience" are people who are not saved.

What’s your take on the passages that require continued belief?

1 Corinthians 15:1,2 being one of those verses:

1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

The word for saved in that verse, sozo, has many meanings, one of which is "being made whole." If people hold fast to the gospel, they are being made whole. A Christian may be saved, but if he does not continue in the faith he will not be made whole, but he will be saved from the second death.

Agreed. That seems to be what the New Testament is saying in many places.

In some places, yes. But for Christians, I believe the Bible is clear that salvation is permanent.

It may have been spoken about ethnic Israel in that passage, but I don’t believe it’s limited to them.

Ok.

In Ephesians 5:5-7 Paul is talking to Gentiles about sons and saying that it’s possible for them to not have any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

They may not have an inheritance, but they'll be there.

 

[studentoftheword]

Are you claiming you no longer sin?

No ----but I certainly do not sin often ---and I most certainly do not call myself a Sinner who actively sins willfully all the time -----we have a choice to sin or not ---no one holds anything over you to make you sin --it is a conscious decision and we choose to miss the mark --God has given His Children tools in place to stay out of sin ---every time you Sin you grieve the Holy spirit and if you like grieving the Holy Spirit then that is your decision ---it is not mine ----

Grace does not give us a licence to Sin ---Grace provides a way to stay out of sin ----and here is the thing --God sees no sin in His true Saved Children ---but that doesn't mean we should just go on sinning ---

Romans 6:18 ESV / 27 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Romans 6:14 ESV / 22 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

I say -------We have dominion over sin now through Grace ------use Grace ---to stay out of sin -----

John 8:34-36 ESV / 19 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

I say ---so by calling yourself a SINNER you are still a slave to Sin


Romans 6:11 ESV / 12 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I say ----so here you are to consider yourself DEAD TO SIN --------

If you keep calling yourself a SINNER then your keeping Sin Alive -----enough said in my view

 

[Polar]

I think that's what disruptive people seek to do in threads that speak of and to the Gospel particulars.

Hijack, engender confusion by insisting false doctrine is truth. Make it so contentious due to their collective efforts that Christians of peaceful intent avoid it.

I'd hope that doesn't happen often here. Ignoring the baddies is simple enough. Just scroll by. Limited repeat false doctrine rhetoric is boring. That energy is not a victim.

And if page after page of effort at correction has no affect, I think the dark intent is then impossible to ignore.

The Bible is available for anyone to read.
Not understand.

it's actually very common

sadly

 

[VARob]

No ----but I certainly do not sin often ---and I most certainly do not call myself a Sinner who actively sins willfully all the time -----we have a choice to sin or not ---no one holds anything over you to make you sin --it is a conscious decision and we choose to miss the mark --God has given His Children tools in place to stay out of sin ---every time you Sin you grieve the Holy spirit and if you like grieving the Holy Spirit then that is your decision ---it is not mine ----

I do not like grieving the Holy Spirit.

Grace does not give us a licence to Sin ---Grace provides a way to stay out of sin ----and here is the thing --God sees no sin in His true Saved Children ---but that doesn't mean we should just go on sinning ---

Of course He does. When we sin, we need to ask for forgiveness (1 John 1:9).

Romans 6:18 ESV / 27 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Romans 6:14 ESV / 22 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

I say -------We have dominion over sin now through Grace ------use Grace ---to stay out of sin -----

I do my best. I hope you do too.

John 8:34-36 ESV / 19 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

I say ---so by calling yourself a SINNER you are still a slave to Sin

You may say that, but I call myself a sinner because I still sin. So do you.

Romans 6:11 ESV / 12 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I say ----so here you are to consider yourself DEAD TO SIN --------

If you keep calling yourself a SINNER then your keeping Sin Alive -----enough said in my view

When we sin, we confess it, and more forward. Christians are saved sinners.

 

[Polar]

That isn't what happened, but I am sure they appreciate you coming back to defend them.

This was actually just a Bible discussion until it wasn't. That wasn't my choice. I didn't control this conversation to the point it is now.

Maybe people should be careful about suggesting others are going to hell to use Wi-Fi, are liars, not Christian, and/or are atheists. This thread has become toxic, but I assure you that isn't my doing.

Seriously, you should try to read a bit more of the comment history. It isn't myself who needs a chill pill, but noted. If I respond anymore in this thread it'll be to those seeking a serious Bible discussion. God bless.

that isn't what happened

ONLY IT WAS WHAT HAPPENED.

I didn't control this conversation

YOU GOT RIGHT BACK TO THE SAME THING EVERY TIME SOMEONE TRIED TO CHANGE YOUR STATION

Maybe people should be careful about suggesting others are going to hell to use Wi-Fi, are liars, not Christian, and/or are atheists. This thread has become toxic, but I assure you that isn't my doing.

I AM NOT ASSURED.

Seriously, you should try to read a bit more of the comment history. It isn't myself who needs a chill pill, but noted. If I respond anymore in this thread it'll be to those seeking a serious Bible discussion. God bless

I'VE READ IT ALL. NO AMOUNT OF WORD SALAD FROM YOU IS GOING TO CHANGE THE FACT YOU ARE LARGELY RESPONSIBLE FOR TAKING THE THREAD OFF COURSE.

FURTHER, MY OPINION IS THAT THE BIBLE STUDY YOU WOULD LIKE, IS THE ONE WHERE EVERYONE AGREES WITH YOU AND TELLS YOU THAT YOU ARE SUCH A GOOD TEACHER. YOU DIDN'T START THE THREAD. YOU ARE ALWAYS FREE TO START A THREAD EVEN CONTRADICTING THIS ONE...BUT IT IS REALLY NOT VERY NICE TO TAKE SOMEONE ELSE'S THREAD AND CREATE A DIFFERENT TOPIC AND ARGUE WITH EVERYONE THAT THEY ARE WRONG UNLESS THEY AGREE WITH YOU

absurd defense for what you did and do

 

[VARob]

MY OPINION IS THAT THE BIBLE STUDY YOU WOULD LIKE, IS THE ONE WHERE EVERYONE AGREES WITH YOU

Isn't that a Bible study we would all like?

..just saying.

 

[Runningman]

Isn't that a Bible study we would all like?

..just saying.

The Bible study I would like is we can disagree without people saying others are not Christians, or are going to hell, or are atheists. Disagreements are fine and expected, but as you can see I have Biblical supporting facts for everything I believe.

 

[Runningman]

ONLY IT WAS WHAT HAPPENED.



YOU GOT RIGHT BACK TO THE SAME THING EVERY TIME SOMEONE TRIED TO CHANGE YOUR STATION



I AM NOT ASSURED.



I'VE READ IT ALL. NO AMOUNT OF WORD SALAD FROM YOU IS GOING TO CHANGE THE FACT YOU ARE LARGELY RESPONSIBLE FOR TAKING THE THREAD OFF COURSE.

FURTHER, MY OPINION IS THAT THE BIBLE STUDY YOU WOULD LIKE, IS THE ONE WHERE EVERYONE AGREES WITH YOU AND TELLS YOU THAT YOU ARE SUCH A GOOD TEACHER. YOU DIDN'T START THE THREAD. YOU ARE ALWAYS FREE TO START A THREAD EVEN CONTRADICTING THIS ONE...BUT IT IS REALLY NOT VERY NICE TO TAKE SOMEONE ELSE'S THREAD AND CREATE A DIFFERENT TOPIC AND ARGUE WITH EVERYONE THAT THEY ARE WRONG UNLESS THEY AGREE WITH YOU

absurd defense for what you did and do

Your comment in all caps is tantamount to Internet screaming. It demonstrates you lack the temperament to communicate effectively with those you disagree with and brings into question the soundness of your judgements.

 

[Polar]

Isn't that a Bible study we would all like?

..just saying.

uh....no. How would anyone ever learn anything with a Bible study like that?

 

[Polar]

Your comment in all caps is tantamount to Internet screaming. It demonstrates you lack the temperament to communicate effectively with those you disagree with and brings into question the soundness of your judgements.

commenting on yourself again?

 

[VARob]

uh....no. How would anyone ever learn anything with a Bible study like that?

commenting on yourself again?

..looks like everyone is learning a lot.

Have a great day, y'all.

 

[Polar]

The Bible study I would like is we can disagree without people saying others are not Christians, or are going to hell, or are atheists. Disagreements are fine and expected, but as you can see I have Biblical supporting facts for everything I believe.

 

[Runningman]

They may not have any inheritance, but they will be saved (1 Cor 3:15).

No Paul is talking to Christians. We can be sure of this because non-Christians aren’t referred to as sons.

Ephesians 5:3-7
3But among you, as is proper among the saints, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or crude joking, which are out of character, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.7Therefore do not be partakers with them.

"Sons of disobedience" are people who are not saved.

Unsaved people are never called sons.

The word for saved in that verse, sozo, has many meanings, one of which is "being made whole." If people hold fast to the gospel, they are being made whole. A Christian may be saved, but if he does not continue in the faith he will not be made whole, but he will be saved from the second death.

No. Belief in the gospel is a prerequisite to eternal life salvation from the second death. 1 Cor. 15:1,2 is about not holding firmly to the gospel that was believed at first. If the gospel isn’t held firmly to then that means that aren’t believing which means it was all in vain and they aren’t saved.

In some places, yes. But for Christians, I believe the Bible is clear that salvation is permanent.

I don’t believe the Bible contradicts itself so I can’t see how that is true.

They may not have an inheritance, but they'll be there.

Matthew 8:12 says the sons of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness. What makes you think that it can’t happen to the Christian sons in Ephesians 5?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Believers are those who continue believing.

Believers are those who HAVE believed in the Savior and received eternal life WHEN they believed, and for THAT reason, shall never perish. That is from Jesus Himself. It would do you well to believe Jesus.

I’m not budging an inch on that unless the Bible says otherwise.

Actually, the Bible doesn't SAY what you SAY. That's the rub for you.

Got any verses that say that those who abandon the faith are saved?

Why would I need any since Jesus Himself SAID that believers possess eternal life and shall never perish.

OH, and to go along with that, there are no verses that say that the gift of eternal life can be revoked, lost, given away, or any other silly thing that Arminians come up with.

So, that means, once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

All you need for support for your claim is a verse that clearly says that eternal life can be lost/etc, or that ceasing to believe will result in condemnation.

Instead, we have the very clear words of Jesus about believers possessing eternal life from the MOMENT they believe and the result is that they shall never perish.

We also have Paul's words: "having believed", that person is sealed with the Holy Spirit, as a deposit guaranteeing an inheritance for the day of redemption as God's possession. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

You have no excuse for your stunning stubbornness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God did not "allow Samuel to attend a seance." It wasn't Samuel, Samuel had died. It was a devil spirit impersonating Samuel.

Does the Word of God say any of this? No. The Bible says "Samuel told Saul...". You are believing a fallacy.

The devil spirit was telling Saul that he and his sons would be dead.

I quoted the verse where Samuel told Saul that Saul would be WITH HIM tomorrow.