Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[BreatheFocusBet]

Yes, those verse came to mind after I posted, which then causes me wonder if I just don't know what I want to do or don't want to do anymore. I can't seem to carry out anything.

If one cannot carry out righteousness, that verse tells us why.

Paul gives a significant part of the answer to this in Romans 6

Romans 6:1-11
What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer? Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.


Also, note what is conjoined with "be baptized" here

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 7:10

 

[Beckie]

Mat_10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

Luk_9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.



Joh_19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

 

[Runningman]

You can not post a single scripture that says , Judas operated used, as you say, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. You can only claim he did so in the general sence using 'the twelve'. Yet you discount , adjust, alter, verses like Psalms 58:3, to fit your dogma Also you made comment of me picking on your character, Then you accused @Magenta of being dishonest. Your liberal standards are screaming, double screaming.
Also you make the claim the 12 operated in the Gifts of the Spirit before the death and resurrection of Jesus. While not having scripture to support such. I believe Jesus said He gave them the power. ( I will post the scriptures later).

Mark 6 says they, the 12 disciples, did the things Jesus gave them power (some translations use the word authority) to do. It would follow that if Jesus sent out the 12 to do something and verses 12 and 13 say they did it then it's referring to the 12 disciples, who Judas is among. This is called proof, but you seem skeptical and/or unbelieving that Mark 6 proves what it says they did.

Mark 6:7,12,13
7Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.
12They went out and preached that people should repent.
13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

As far as the12 disciples using gifts of the Holy Spirit, then it's clear in the gospels, Acts, and Paul's letter that healing the sick is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 12
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, who apportions them to each one as He determines.

Jesus also said in Mark 16 that there are signs that will accompany those who believe:

Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”

So if you study the gospels and Acts it's pretty clear that gift of healing is through the Holy Spirit.

So why is this important to OSAS? I think you know. It means Judas isn't exactly who church tradition says he is. All of the bad things he did and all of the bad things he was called are always talked about, but rarely anyone looks a little closer at the things he did and why. Also, to some extent, it's a bit taboo to use the Bible to speak about the good things Judas did. Ever wonder why? If you know the answer, I would like to hear it.

 

[Runningman]

Leviticus 19:17-18

Ninevah was located in the Assyrian empire, in what is now modern day Northern Iraq. Those people weren't fellow Israelites.

Jonah 1:1,2
1The word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2“Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

 

[Cameron143]

Ninevah was located in the Assyrian empire, in what is now modern day Northern Iraq. Those people weren't fellow Israelites.

Jonah 1:1,2
1The word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2“Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

And who is your neighbor?

 

[Runningman]

And who is your neighbor?

 

[ThewindBlows]

God’s grace is accessed through faith provided one keeps the faith. Also, that doesn’t mean someone is free to go sin it up. One should be trying, even if they fail sometimes, but always trying to live a righteous life. God’s grace can be abused and those who make a practice of sin have distinct warnings for them. It’s all in Hebrews and 1 John.

Do you know what the faith is? I point to the first line of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians and your reaction is to redefine and put conditions on the Grace of God that are not in scripture and then your response to Jesus dying for our sin is to bring up sin, where did it doesn't mean someone is free to go sin it up come from in response to Jesus died for our sins, then you jump to practicing sin, its like sin is all you can see or look for, Do you know there is a solution for your sin

 

[Runningman]

Do you know what the faith is? I point to the first line of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians and your reaction is to redefine and put conditions on the Grace of God that are not in scripture and then your response to Jesus dying for our sin is to bring up sin, where did it doesn't mean someone is free to go sin it up come from in response to Jesus died for our sins, then you jump to practicing sin, its like sin is all you can see or look for, Do you know there is a solution for your sin

I'm just trying to answer your questions, but I'm finding it difficult to see an honest conversation from you. All of your responses use various logical fallacies and accusations. I'm not going to keep playing this game of offense and defense with you.

On that note, going forward, I'll just leave you with verses that you're free to interpret any way you prefer and if you have questions I'm here to show you more verses.

Romans 5:1,2
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans 6:1,2
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Hebrews 3:12-14
12See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

1 John 5:17,18
17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

 

[ThewindBlows]

I'm just trying to answer your questions, but I'm finding it difficult to see an honest conversation from you. All of your responses use various logical fallacies and accusations. I'm not going to keep playing this game of offense and defense with you.

On that note, going forward, I'll just leave you with verses that you're free to interpret any way you prefer and if you have questions I'm here to show you more verses.

I could say the same about you, I feel its like you are talking into a mirror most of the time, im being honest and i answer your questions, but you don't so I would put it like you did, "your being intellectially dishonest Sir", regardless its supposed to be a discussion, I'm getting you to look at your heart and try and follow your logical conclusions but you purposely don't

Today is the day of salvation, that's what im trying to show you, but you seem to run from the Cross of Christ

 

[Beckie]

Mark 6 says they, the 12 disciples, did the things Jesus gave them power (some translations use the word authority) to do. It would follow that if Jesus sent out the 12 to do something and verses 12 and 13 say they did it then it's referring to the 12 disciples, who Judas is among. This is called proof, but you seem skeptical and/or unbelieving that Mark 6 proves what it says they did.

Mark 6:7,12,13
7Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.
12They went out and preached that people should repent.
13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

As far as the12 disciples using gifts of the Holy Spirit, then it's clear in the gospels, Acts, and Paul's letter that healing the sick is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 12
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, who apportions them to each one as He determines.

Jesus also said in Mark 16 that there are signs that will accompany those who believe:

Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”

So if you study the gospels and Acts it's pretty clear that gift of healing is through the Holy Spirit.

So why is this important to OSAS? I think you know. It means Judas isn't exactly who church tradition says he is. All of the bad things he did and all of the bad things he was called are always talked about, but rarely anyone looks a little closer at the things he did and why. Also, to some extent, it's a bit taboo to use the Bible to speak about the good things Judas did. Ever wonder why? If you know the answer, I would like to hear it.

As for osas i have gone back and forth over this topic in my studies for 25 to 30 years. Your twisting of Scripture to proved what you consider to be a valid point shows your desperation. Is there a direct passage account of Judas < for lack of better words> doing good? no there is not . You dare to add to the Holy Spirit that which God did not. To this reader weakens your point even more.

 

[Runningman]

As for osas i have gone back and forth over this topic in my studies for 25 to 30 years. Your twisting of Scripture to proved what you consider to be a valid point shows your desperation. Is there a direct passage account of Judas < for lack of better words> doing good? no there is not . You dare to add to the Holy Spirit that which God did not. To this reader weakens your point even more.

On the contrary, your refusal to accept what I've shown you in the Bible shows your desperation and willingness to lean on your own understanding. You dare reject the words of Jesus? That's your choice.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

2 Tim 2:12 can end the debate:

If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Follows Mat 16:25, Amplified Version:

"For whoever wishes to save his life [in this world] will [eventually] lose it [through death], but whoever loses his life [in this world] for My sake will find it [that is, life with Me for all eternity]."

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

As for this passage in Rev 3:5: “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. “‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."

Notice it says (1) those who have not soiled their garments will walk with Him in white, for His grace has made them worthy; (2) now, this garment is a reference to the Holy Spirit indwelling in our soul, which we receive when we believe and are baptized or when we are born again. And so, after that, it is possible to soil our garments, as many of them in Sardis did.

God Bless.

 

[Runningman]

2 Tim 2:12 can end the debate:

If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Follows Mat 16:25, Amplified Version:

"For whoever wishes to save his life [in this world] will [eventually] lose it [through death], but whoever loses his life [in this world] for My sake will find it [that is, life with Me for all eternity]."

that’s clear, thank you. Debate ended as far as I am concerned. Actually it ended before it began. There will be people who try to twist what you’ve shown though. I don’t like that.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Well your train of thought is foreign to the new testament so Christians wont be able to relate to what you are saying, you have separated eternal life from the moment Christ came into them, Your saying it hasn't happened yet and then you are telling Christians it cant happen to them either in this life, so that would be offensive to them as they know who they believe

Your conception of what it means to have eternal life seems skewed; but not just you, a lot of people. Yes, we have the promise of eternal life through faith in Christ, but that promise isn't fully realized until we die in Christ or are taken to Him when He appears. People in this thread have posted scripture after scripture that proves we will receive the promise of eternal life if we remain faithful to the end; but for some reason you're blind to it. I don't know if you just don't want to see it or if you're so brainwashed you can't see it.

 

[ThewindBlows]

Your conception of what it means to have eternal life seems skewed; but not just you, a lot of people. Yes, we have the promise of eternal life through faith in Christ, but that promise isn't fully realized until we die in Christ or are taken to Him when He appears. People in this thread have posted scripture after scripture that proves we will receive the promise of eternal life if we remain faithful to the end; but for some reason you're blind to it. I don't know if you just don't want to see it or if you're so brainwashed you can't see it.

That's your confession of faith, you are saying you don't fully realize it and you don't know, and I guess that's why you start a thread like this, but its Christ that lives in us that is our hope and glory, we know who our father is, so you cant deny who you are, unless like you said you don't know

What is your faith in to save you? and what is your faith in to keep you saved? can you answer that

 

[ResidentAlien]

That's your confession of faith, you are saying you don't fully realize it and you don't know, and I guess that's why you start a thread like this, but its Christ that lives in us that is our hope and glory, we know who our father is, so you cant deny who you are, unless like you said you don't know

What is your faith in to save you? and what is your faith in to keep you saved? can you answer that

Like I said, either intentionally blind, or brainwashed.

 

[ThewindBlows]

Notice it says (1) those who have not soiled their garments will walk with Him in white, for His grace has made them worthy; (2) now, this garment is a reference to the Holy Spirit indwelling in our soul, which we receive when we believe and are baptized or when we are born again. And so, after that, it is possible to soil our garments, as many of them in Sardis did.

God Bless.

for some context who is it that over comes? he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me

To abide in Jesus and walk by faith, is how you do mighty works for Gods Glory

 

[Cameron143]

Your conception of what it means to have eternal life seems skewed; but not just you, a lot of people. Yes, we have the promise of eternal life through faith in Christ, but that promise isn't fully realized until we die in Christ or are taken to Him when He appears. People in this thread have posted scripture after scripture that proves we will receive the promise of eternal life if we remain faithful to the end; but for some reason you're blind to it. I don't know if you just don't want to see it or if you're so brainwashed you can't see it.

The flip side of this are verses that indicate eternal life is a present reality and that it cannot be lost and that our own personal work of perseverance is contrary to grace.
I only point this out because what seems obvious to one position seems not to fit doctrinally to the other, and vice versa. And while it is good to have the debate, far too often it degrades into personal insult, either covertly or overtly.
It is a soft answer that turns away wrath.
I'm not addressing you personally or implying you are guilty of any of the aforementioned actions.