Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

[cv5]

I only respond to comments that have scripture quotes to back them up.

Here you go bro. So what exactly is Jesus saying here? I mean clearly this is post Second Coming....correct?

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Inquisitor]

Because when read in context this passage isn't talking about a nation of Israel.

Firstly, regarding salvation Paul never talks about a nation of Israel, I have yet to see anyone provide me any verse anywhere, NT or OT, that states "the nation of Israel is saved". It just doesn't exist in the Bible.

In terms of salvation he only talks about the people Israel. He very specifically makes the distinction that not all of Israel are Israel. He very clearly establishes the fact that not all of Israel will be saved, but all Israel will be saved. And he clearly alludes to himself as a member of all Israel and therefore evidence that the promises have/will be fulfilled.



It's an apposition. Individuals that meet the conditions of being a) his countrymen, b) his fleshly kinsmen, c) Israelites, d) to whom belongs the adoption of sons and daughters, glory, covenants, Law, temple service, e) the promises.

Not all children of flesh meet the condition of belonging to the promises. He clearly isn't talking about all of his countrymen, nor all fleshly kinsmen, nor all Israelites, but all of those qualities plus being heirs to the promises. Paul takes a lot of time to dispel the misconception that not everyone that claims to be heir to the promises is actually heir to the promises. The promises were only ever to those with an internal nature to turn to God and not all that were counted among Israelites.

I quoted the text (Romans 9:1-5) which described the physical country referred to as Israel.

You then embarked on a denial of what the text (Romans 9:1-5) stated, based on some wider context.

I will ask you again.

Is the text (Romans 9:1-5) describing the nation of Israel?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I think I am understanding this way as well. We are still responsible for our choice. There are too many passages that show that, but we can not come to the father unless he draws us. We are dead in our sins and need him to call us to him. It is not easy to understand, but our minds will never be able to fully understand until he returns for us and we get to see him just as he is.

What I do know for sure is that I am 100% undeserving of the grace He gives.. and it's grace upon grace I have been given. He knows we can't do it on our own. "For he knows our frame, he remembers that we are dust. "

Understanding how sinful we are by nature is a plus to God. God has given mankind the freedom to choose out how he wants to live his life here on earth, and mankind choose not to seek God (Psalms 14:1-3). That is why God choose an elect people, before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and predetermined that Jesus would adopt them as his children (Eph 1:5).

Rom 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called accordance to his purpose, For whom he did foreknow. he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn of many brethren, moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

We can see, by these scriptures, who it is that God calls, and it is his elect people, and not all of mankind.

 

[cv5]

I only respond to comments that have scripture quotes to back them up.

Act 1:6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Waiting. Waiitttiiing. Waaaaiiittttttiiiiinnng. BOOM! That what we are dealing with there. To deny this is to have Jesus lose all credibility. Jocund.....you really want to go there buddy?

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Grandpa]

What is your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 & John 14:17?

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

My interpretation of this verse is that the natural man CANNOT recieve the spiritual Gifts of God. God must change the person in order for them to receive His Gifts. The changing is actually part of the Gift.

Ezekiel 36:24-27
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


This is what God does/ is doing in order for a person to receive to His Gifts. Which is Salvation.


John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I think John 14:17 is essentially saying the same thing as in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

 

[Inquisitor]

You are going to have to argue that the following IS NOT true:

-that had a theocratic law given to the people by God thru Moses that was national in scope
- the Israel was indeed a unique, identifiable Nation under their king David
-who had as their capitol Jerusalem (chosen by God)
-where the Temple was located, the pattern of which was given to David by God Himself
-which was a theocracy predicated on covenants given to Abraham, David and Levi,
which will perpetuate into the future not yet seen
-that Israel the Nation, (including King David himself) had/has massive amounts of prophecy, much of which has yet to be fulfilled

You will need to argue that ALL OF THIS (pertaining to National Israel) is an anomaly, is a work of the flesh, and was/is not actually part of God's overall plan.

Which of course....is utterly absurd.

They will further deny that the twelve apostles were sent to the Jews only. That Paul was an apostle specifically sent to the Gentiles. They will deny that Jesus was only sent to the Jews. That Paul preached to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles.

 

[Grandpa]

I heard the following once and it makes sense according to Scripture. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. However, there is one sin that is unforgivable, blasphemy. So people who don’t believe in Christ are not forgiven of that sin and that is why they are condemned. It actually lines up with John 3:18.

So the Blood of Christ is insufficient to Save the Whole World...? People have to add to it in order for it to be sufficient...?

I absolutely disagree. The Blood of Christ is ABSOLUTELY sufficient to Atone for ALL THE SINS of the Whole World.


I suppose you probably already saw this response coming...

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Deliver the soul...save the soul...

The saving in this scripture does not have reference to eternal deliverance, but to a deliverance that the child of God receives as he lives here in this world.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And Paul's letters are to the church, the body of Christ, mainly Gentiles.

I agree with you, they are all regenerated children of God.

 

[cv5]

They will further deny that the twelve apostles were sent to the Jews only. That Paul was an apostle specifically sent to the Gentiles. They will deny that Jesus was only sent to the Jews. That Paul preached to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles.

So what does Jocund think?

That Jesus WAS the King of the Jews, the Jews killed Him.....and now He is not, will not be, and cannot be the King of the Jews anymore, and was stripped of His title and Kingdom forevermore?

I seriously doubt it man.

 

[Inquisitor]

That is exactly what happened. "The house of Israel" is not referencing "the nation of Israel", but is referencing Jacob as Israel, because God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. (Gen 32:28). Jacob as Israel represents all of God's elect (Rom 9:11). which are from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9).

Acts 2:36 - When a person is born again, God exchanges their heart from a heart of stone to a fleshy heart that is soft enough to be "pricked" to feel guilty. These Jews to whom Peter is preaching to are already born again by evidence of their new fleshy heart that was "pricked". and they replied to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "men and brethren, what must we do".

In contrast to the fleshy heart's reply, those with the heart of stone, that heard Stephen preach the same sermon were "cut to the heart" and gnashed on him with their teeth, and stoned him to death (Acts 7:54).

There is something amiss in your understanding of God's plan, that is specifically described in the O.T.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.

Does that ring a bell?

A linear genealogy that continues on after Jacob.

Is Judah the son of Jacob in this chosen lineage?

Does King David appear in this same line of genealogy?

God has chosen this lineage for a purpose.

 

[Cameron143]

Faith always comes before regeneration. Reformed people (Calvinists) are gravely mistaken. I am advocating against Calvinism because Calvinism is HERESY. 👍

Sure. That's your argument. But not a Calvinist. But read the post I responded to. In it was an inaccurate argument credited to Calvinism.
I didn't advocate either way and I said so expressly. My point is that so many who speak against Calvinism don't actually understand the claims of Calvinism. And that can be clearly demonstrated from any number of posts.

 

[Snacks]

So the Blood of Christ is insufficient to Save the Whole World...? People have to add to it in order for it to be sufficient...?

I absolutely disagree. The Blood of Christ is ABSOLUTELY sufficient to Atone for ALL THE SINS of the Whole World.


I suppose you probably already saw this response coming...

Jesus Christ clearly says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. You believe otherwise. Have a nice day. 😊

 

[ForestGreenCook]

They actually have regeneration before salvation.
I'm not advocating for or against calvinism, but I'm amazed that so many against Calvinism are errant in their understanding of it.

Eternal deliverance was accomplished by Jesus's death on the cross. (John 6:39). His death was a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance.

All of God's elect are born into this world, by natural birth, dead in their sins, and full of wrath, even as others, until God quickens them to a new spiritual life (Eph 2:1-5).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I absolutely disagree. The Blood of Christ is ABSOLUTELY sufficient to Atone for ALL THE SINS of the Whole World.

Jesus only atoned for the sins of those that God gave to him (John 6:39). (J0hn 10:28).

 

[Cameron143]

Eternal deliverance was accomplished by Jesus's death on the cross. (John 6:39). His death was a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind, for mankind's acceptance.

All of God's elect are born into this world, by natural birth, dead in their sins, and full of wrath, even as others, until God quickens them to a new spiritual life (Eph 2:1-5).

I understand the distinctions you make and I agree with you in the main. We've gone through this before so I really don't want to trample over the same ground again.

 

[Grandpa]

Jesus Christ clearly says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. You believe otherwise. Have a nice day. 😊

Not believing isn't exactly blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is attributing the Work of the Holy Spirit to devils.

Not believing is ABSOLUTELY forgivable.

Mark 9:23-27
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

 

[Inquisitor]

.

You still need to reply to the question I asked.

Is the following verse talking about the election of Jacob to eternal life?

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

[Grandpa]

Jesus only atoned for the sins of those that God gave to him (John 6:39). (J0hn 10:28).

Roger that.

But if God decided to give the WHOLE WORLD to the Lord Jesus, His Sacrifice is Sufficient for all of them.

 

[Inquisitor]

Not believing isn't exactly blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is attributing the Work of the Holy Spirit to devils.

Not believing is ABSOLUTELY forgivable.

Mark 9:23-27
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

You have accurately drawn that distinction.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin, your fate is sealed.

Ignoring the gospel is not an unforgivable sin, you may at a later time respond to the gospel.