Why look for 'revivals' or 'Church growth' if God does the 'fighting'?

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persistent

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#1
#1
Matthew Henry (18 October 1662 – 22 June 1714) This excerpt of commentary on Joshua 13:6
Gods promise that he would make the Israelites masters of all the countries yet unsubdued, though Joshua was old, and not able to do it; old, and not likely to live to see it done. Whatever becomes of us, and however we may be laid aside as despised, broken vessels, God will do his own work in his own time. We must work out our salvation, then God will work in us, and work with us; we must resist our spiritual enemies, then God will tread them under our feet; we must go forth to our Christian work and warfare, then God will go forth before us.

In OT times God would at times want only a small number of 'fighters'.

In Apostolic times there was an 'exponential' growth of the Church.

Acts 2:41 ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

What is the understanding we should have regarding 'revivals' and Church size and growth if we see that God at times only wants small numbers of 'fighters'?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#2
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#2
persistent said:
Matthew Henry (18 October 1662 – 22 June 1714) This excerpt of commentary on Joshua 13:6
Gods promise that he would make the Israelites masters of all the countries yet unsubdued, though Joshua was old, and not able to do it; old, and not likely to live to see it done. Whatever becomes of us, and however we may be laid aside as despised, broken vessels, God will do his own work in his own time. We must work out our salvation, then God will work in us, and work with us; we must resist our spiritual enemies, then God will tread them under our feet; we must go forth to our Christian work and warfare, then God will go forth before us.

In OT times God would at times want only a small number of 'fighters'.

In Apostolic times there was an 'exponential' growth of the Church.

Acts 2:41 ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

What is the understanding we should have regarding 'revivals' and Church size and growth if we see that God at times only wants small numbers of 'fighters'?
Click to expand...
At least part of the answer lies in the fact that we live on this side of the cross and the work of Christ has been accomplished. Thus, the Spirit of God has been poured out in a way that was seen only infrequently in OT times. I believe this is why Jesus told His disciples they would do even greater works than He had done--not more in power, but volume--because He could only be in one place at a time whereas the Spirit could be wherever believers were.
As far as revival goes, we should probably at times of moral decay petition God to first renew us and then the world around us. Part of the Lord's prayer is that His kingdom would come and His will will be done on earth, so I believe this to be consistent with what God would have us to do.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#3
Mar 1, 2022
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#3
As to the matter of church size, I believe the size of the church should always be limited to the work of Christ...

I will build my church...

Thus, the size of the church is not the concern of the people of God. The emphasis in the great commission is discipleship. The success of a church isn't whether it has many members, but whether those members are growing more and more into the image of Christ.
 
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persistent

Guest
#4
#4
Cameron143 said:
As to the matter of church size, I believe the size of the church should always be limited to the work of Christ...

I will build my church...

Thus, the size of the church is not the concern of the people of God. The emphasis in the great commission is discipleship. The success of a church isn't whether it has many members, but whether those members are growing more and more into the image of Christ.
Click to expand...
From my reading about 'church' history seems the RCC in the west had a 'monopoly' and the east 'church' may have had several 'branches', possibly and the 'church' in Africa was split with 'Coptic' in Egypt and Ethiopia's 'Orthodox', and these possibly under 'Oriental' umbrella. Far East may be part of each of these.

At times it seems people en masse were associated with one of these groups. Now it seems that Great Britain and the US split between RC and Protestantism. Seems both try to solicit members. 'Great Awakening' seems to have been Protestant driven. Even recent videos on You Tube, may be where I have seen in Pennsylvania, attempts by some people to solicit Amish communities to be 'born again'.

These things are puzzling. Big tent events seem like big 'come on'. Mega churches seem to be good and bad. Also puzzling. Possibly God wants us to 'wonder' about these things. My gut says Amish may be like the Canary in the coal mine. They have fled from country to country for centuries. Amish and Old Order Mennonites and Hutterites are admirable in there devotion.

There are likely similar examples other places in the world. Just recent article of remaining Iraqi's left in difficult situation from time when Saddam Hussein drained the lands where they live in attempt to destroy them. Maybe a 'Christian' based group?
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#5
Feb 24, 2009
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#5
persistent said:
From my reading about 'church' history seems the RCC in the west had a 'monopoly' and the east 'church' may have had several 'branches', possibly and the 'church' in Africa was split with 'Coptic' in Egypt and Ethiopia's 'Orthodox', and these possibly under 'Oriental' umbrella. Far East may be part of each of these.

At times it seems people en masse were associated with one of these groups. Now it seems that Great Britain and the US split between RC and Protestantism. Seems both try to solicit members. 'Great Awakening' seems to have been Protestant driven. Even recent videos on You Tube, may be where I have seen in Pennsylvania, attempts by some people to solicit Amish communities to be 'born again'.

These things are puzzling. Big tent events seem like big 'come on'. Mega churches seem to be good and bad. Also puzzling. Possibly God wants us to 'wonder' about these things. My gut says Amish may be like the Canary in the coal mine. They have fled from country to country for centuries. Amish and Old Order Mennonites and Hutterites are admirable in there devotion.

There are likely similar examples other places in the world. Just recent article of remaining Iraqi's left in difficult situation from time when Saddam Hussein drained the lands where they live in attempt to destroy them. Maybe a 'Christian' based group?
Click to expand...
Look up the Waldenses and Paulicians in church history.. that is eye opening.

They never symbolized with Rome and retained a pure Christian faith.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#6
Mar 1, 2022
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#6
persistent said:
From my reading about 'church' history seems the RCC in the west had a 'monopoly' and the east 'church' may have had several 'branches', possibly and the 'church' in Africa was split with 'Coptic' in Egypt and Ethiopia's 'Orthodox', and these possibly under 'Oriental' umbrella. Far East may be part of each of these.

At times it seems people en masse were associated with one of these groups. Now it seems that Great Britain and the US split between RC and Protestantism. Seems both try to solicit members. 'Great Awakening' seems to have been Protestant driven. Even recent videos on You Tube, may be where I have seen in Pennsylvania, attempts by some people to solicit Amish communities to be 'born again'.

These things are puzzling. Big tent events seem like big 'come on'. Mega churches seem to be good and bad. Also puzzling. Possibly God wants us to 'wonder' about these things. My gut says Amish may be like the Canary in the coal mine. They have fled from country to country for centuries. Amish and Old Order Mennonites and Hutterites are admirable in there devotion.

There are likely similar examples other places in the world. Just recent article of remaining Iraqi's left in difficult situation from time when Saddam Hussein drained the lands where they live in attempt to destroy them. Maybe a 'Christian' based group?
Click to expand...
Your overall history is correct. And throughout history there have been revivals and awakenings that bear the presence of God. And there is little doubt that the world could use a movement of God today. And there is nothing wrong with a mega church in and of itself. Some estimates of the early church in Jerusalem exceed 30,000. Problems arise when men grow the church, and not God.
True revival always begins in heaven at the behest of God and not by men. Large scale evangelism and tent meetings aren't wrong to do but they should be labeled as something other than revival.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#8
#8
persistent said:
Matthew Henry (18 October 1662 – 22 June 1714) This excerpt of commentary on Joshua 13:6
Gods promise that he would make the Israelites masters of all the countries yet unsubdued, though Joshua was old, and not able to do it; old, and not likely to live to see it done. Whatever becomes of us, and however we may be laid aside as despised, broken vessels, God will do his own work in his own time. We must work out our salvation, then God will work in us, and work with us; we must resist our spiritual enemies, then God will tread them under our feet; we must go forth to our Christian work and warfare, then God will go forth before us.

In OT times God would at times want only a small number of 'fighters'.

In Apostolic times there was an 'exponential' growth of the Church.

Acts 2:41 ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

What is the understanding we should have regarding 'revivals' and Church size and growth if we see that God at times only wants small numbers of 'fighters'?
Click to expand...
They preached the gospel and the church grew. Maybe just do that. Preach the gospel and let God accomplish his work.
I hate all the gimmicks and emotional strumming. Charels Finney did not trust the gospel nor did he trust God.
 
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pottersclay

Guest
#10
#10
Revivals can start with one person...ask Jesus. The time laps between Malachi and the birth of CHRIST was about 400 to 500 yrs.
When God decides to pour out his spirit theres no stopping it😄😄
Church size well didnt Jesus preach to 5000 then to 4000 yet we read that many had walked away.
So size if your asking about attendance is of no vaule. The faith that endures to the end....is the number yet to be known.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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#12
Apr 21, 2021
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#12
I'm no expert on Finney, but I do know he was very gimmicky, using man-made methods to manipulate and coerce "decisions" from people. How many of those decisions were genuine is questionable. His methods were the blueprint for many of the revivalists who followed him.
 
oyster67

oyster67

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#13
May 24, 2014
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#13
Why look for 'revivals' or 'Church growth' if God does the 'fighting'?


1 Corinthians 3:7
“So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.”

Our job is to simply trust and obey.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#14
Jul 18, 2017
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#14
persistent said:
What is the understanding we should have regarding 'revivals' and Church size and growth if we see that God at times only wants small numbers of 'fighters'?
Click to expand...
The Church has nothing to do with "fighters" (a la Gideon and his men). "Revivals" is a much abused term. God can have either a handful of Christians or thousands of Christians in one church (e.g. the church at Jerusalem after Pentecost). The job of the Church (believers) is to simply preach the Gospel to every creature. If thousands are saved, fine. If not, fine. This is not dependent upon "revivals" but the powerful living Word of God as embodied in the true Gospel, and the convincing and convicting power of the Holy Spirit.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#15
#15
oyster67 said:
Why look for 'revivals' or 'Church growth' if God does the 'fighting'?


1 Corinthians 3:7
“So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.”

Our job is to simply trust and obey.
Click to expand...
Hey Oyster, the verse is saying, the one that plants is not the one that gives the increase and the one that waters, likewise, is not the one that gives an increase. But someone needs to plant and someone needs to water and then God will be the one to determine the increase.>>>>>>>>
Jesus Christ says to us, ‘Come and work here side by side with Me,’ But Christian men, plenty of them, answer, ‘It is a perpetual nuisance, this continual application for money! money! money! work! work! work! It is never-ending, and it is a burden!’ Yes, it is a burden, just because it is an honour. Do you know that the Hebrew word which means ‘glory’ literally means ‘weight’ ? There is a great truth in that. You cannot get true honours unless you are prepared to carry them as burdens. And the highest honour that Jesus Christ gives to men when He says to them, not only ‘Go work to-day in My vineyard,’ but ‘Come, work here side by side with Me,’ is a heavy weight which can only be lightened by a cheerful heart.

Still seems that 'revivals' and 'growth' are God's business, not ours.

So what exactly is 1 Corinthians 3:7 saying to Christians? Particularly, ".......planteth any thing,....."
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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#16
Apr 21, 2021
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#16
The charismatic groups and megachurches have basically replace revivalism. People nowadays have become addicted to new experiences; they have to have them or life would be unbearable. They wander from new experience to new experience. It's part of the culture.

This partly explains the success of charismania; it has become a permanent revival. It also explains why charismania is constantly changing and shifting to accommodate people. It has adopted worldly methods to attract worldly people.

"The discerning sets his face toward wisdom, but the eyes of a fool are on the ends of the earth." Proverbs 17:24
 
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