Jesus is God
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Plaine speaking is easy on the earthly level but even plain statements become complex when speaking 'into/out of' the spiritual realm. When Moses asked God, "Who should I say sent me?" God answered, "Tell them, 'I am that I am,' which also means 'I was what I was,' and 'I'll be what I'll be,' and in this sense is how Jesus answered the question, "Are you..." in Mark 14:62, "I am... sitting at the right hand of power...and coming with the clouds of heaven." That is, He wasn't speaking solely of the puffy while accumulations of water vapor.
John 8
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
Verse 58 is in reference to the preexistence of Jesus as the Son of God.
58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
Verse 58 is in reference to the preexistence of Jesus as the Son of God.
58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
To the eternal preexistence of Jesus, as discussed at length in our other engagements (see post #34): https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/one-god-worship.208537/page-2
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We can deduce several things about Runningman's theology. He believes in the preexistence of Jesus (as indicated by Post #49), but he also cited a litany of passages in Post #31 of this thread (click me!) to argue that Jesus is not God. Though, by the use of "God" he was conflating it with "the Father."
Putting two-and-two together seems to suggest one of two things. Either Runningman holds to an Arian type Christology, similar to that of the JW's. Or he believes in the eternal preexistence of the Son of God, so you have two eternal divine figures.
Runningman hasn't come out officially and said it; and some of his interpretations don't follow standard Watchtower interpretations. So it may be that he was influenced in his thought by reading JW material. Though this is speculation. It could be that Runningman hears the word "God" and automatically thinks "the Father."
Putting two-and-two together seems to suggest one of two things. Either Runningman holds to an Arian type Christology, similar to that of the JW's. Or he believes in the eternal preexistence of the Son of God, so you have two eternal divine figures.
Runningman hasn't come out officially and said it; and some of his interpretations don't follow standard Watchtower interpretations. So it may be that he was influenced in his thought by reading JW material. Though this is speculation. It could be that Runningman hears the word "God" and automatically thinks "the Father."
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Read my responses in that thread again. My entire thesis in that thread is about what the Pharisees believed about Jesus and how their claims that Jesus claimed he is God is false because Jesus never said that. I am not even talking about what I believe there.
I think you’ve added a lot of your commentary and you’re free to make deductions, but you’re misrepresenting me. I have never even read the Watchtower magazine, fellowshipped with any JWs, or been to a Kingdom Hall. So you got me all wrong, as most people seem to do on this forum.
I’ve said this at least a half dozen times now, but Bible discussions are scholarly to me and I’m staunchly Biblical and a lot of people will find it impossible to pry me away from what the Bible doesn’t plainly say.
That’s why I prefer to keep it more scholarly and academic and less personal.
As far as the Trinity Goes, I am a Trinitsrian since I believe in the Trinity, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren’t the same Person; that’s very clear. The Father is God who delegated power and authority to Jesus for the time being. The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit.
Please refer to Paul’s theology about the Father and Son, below: this is how I view it too.
1 Corinthians 15
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.27For “God has put everything under His feet.”b Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
I think you’ve added a lot of your commentary and you’re free to make deductions, but you’re misrepresenting me. I have never even read the Watchtower magazine, fellowshipped with any JWs, or been to a Kingdom Hall. So you got me all wrong, as most people seem to do on this forum.
I’ve said this at least a half dozen times now, but Bible discussions are scholarly to me and I’m staunchly Biblical and a lot of people will find it impossible to pry me away from what the Bible doesn’t plainly say.
That’s why I prefer to keep it more scholarly and academic and less personal.
As far as the Trinity Goes, I am a Trinitsrian since I believe in the Trinity, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren’t the same Person; that’s very clear. The Father is God who delegated power and authority to Jesus for the time being. The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit.
Please refer to Paul’s theology about the Father and Son, below: this is how I view it too.
1 Corinthians 15
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.27For “God has put everything under His feet.”b Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
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The Spirit of God, Jesus' Father, didn't rest on Jesus until after his water baptism. This voice from heaven speaking is Jesus' Father, aka God, who referred to Jesus as His Son.
Matthew 3
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”
Matthew 3
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”