Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

renewed

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being

now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Now = Greek word nyn ... now justified

Notice God did not write "Much more then, being then justified by His blood". God wrote now justified because of what is written in Romans 5:1.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Again, a person Christ died for in 33 ad, that put away their sins, Justified them from sin, now that certain person was physically born say in 1952, well guess what? They are physically born a wicked sinner in 1952 Justified from all their wickedness and sinfulness they are going to be committing. Christ paid for all that back at the Cross in 33 ad, they just don't know it yet. However, God will sooner or later send them the good news of their already accomplished Justification, and when He does, they will hear it, believe it by God given Faith.

What you think that Christ didnt shed His Blood for an individual and their sins until they were born ?
That I have never stated what you claim will not stop you from endlessly claiming I said that ...

Yes but its reasonably implied!

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

wow ... telling you the truth of Scripture is "wasting up time and resources" ???

You are.

brightfame52 said:
forgiveness of sins comes before faith, before believing.
God having worked out His eternal purpose in eternity past does not negate the need for faith on the part of mankind.

Another senseless comment. Forgiveness of sins is before a person believes it. A person Christ died for that blood of the New Covenant forgave their sins Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

That occurred in 33 ad, now say one for whom He died was born in 1952, they were born with their sins forgiven by what occurred for them in 33 ad when Christ shed His Blood for the many of which they were privy to be part of.

We all agree God has provided forgiveness of sins through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. God did this in eternity past.

Then you claim "thy receive the light of the Gospel, the knowledge of their forgiveness".

That is not what is written. The verse states that they may receive forgiveness of sins.

The forgiveness of sins is tied directly to faith that is in me (the Lord Jesus Christ – Acts 26:15).

After hearing the gospel, if the hearer does not place his/her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (which is the only provision for forgiveness of sins), he/she will not receive the forgiveness. Not because it is not available to them, but because they reject that which God provided.

Those whom Christ died for, God sends them a sensible knowledge of their forgiveness of sins, that's how they receive it, its received and understood by God given faith which is the fruit of regeneration.

Jesus gives them forgivenss of sins Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

After hearing the gospel, if the hearer does not place his/her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (which is the only provision for forgiveness of sins), he/she will not receive the forgiveness. Not because it is not available to them, but because they reject that which God provided.

False teaching. If they hear spiritually, they are already forgiven, and regenerated, and given faith. Its the hearing of Faith

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Again, the world of 2 Corinthians 5:19 is the world we currently live in.

According to 2 Corinthians 5:19, God has committed unto us the word of reconciliation. If there is no sin, what need is there for God to commit unto us the word of reconciliation?

Stop evading the question. Does the reconciled world named in 2 Cor 5:19 have any sins charged to it ? Yes or No

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

You really need to learn to submit your posts properly so that you do not include statements made by others as if you had made the statement.

Heb 9:12 shows that those for whom Christ died are Justified by His Blood because He has obtained for them by His death eternal redemption. This redemption is described as Justification as well Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

brightfame52 said:

the Gospel, its in the spiritual things catagory.
nope ... you want to claim the gospel is the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom? I have shared with you the truth of 1 Cor 2:6-14 and you reject. That is on you.

Then you go around spreading the lie of the adversary that folks "cannot receive or understand ... the Gospel". Again, that is on you.

Again, the Gospel is amongst that which is considered Spiritual things, so the natural man cannot spiritually discern those things of God which the Gospel makes known 1 Cor 2:13-14

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That you continue to claim that all of Scripture is the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom which natural man cannot understand/comprehend is error on your part.

You are teaching exactly what the devil wants taught. The last thing the devil wants is to have folks open Scripture and read it so that the kernels of truth embed themselves in the hearts of the readers where God brings increase.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The Gospel is the Wisdom of God, in that its about Christ who is the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Now this wisdom of God Paul writes 1 Cor 2:7

But we speak the wisdom of God[Christ] in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Also the Gospel is a message that God preordained before the world unto the Glory of them that believe, who themselves were ordained and chosen to eternal life.

 

[brightfame52]

nope ... you have provided absolutely no Scriptural support for this erroneous statement.





The parables in Luke 15 do not support your claim.

In the case of the lost sheep, the one who wandered off already belonged to the shepherd.

In the case of the forgiving father, both sons were sons of the father. One wandered off and the father watched and waited for him to return. The son who remained home was chastened by his father for his poor attitude.

Your examples fail to establish your claim. Both would be similar to one who is already a believer but who has wandered off ... they are not indicative of one who is not a believer before wandering off.
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Yes again a person is a child of God, or a precious lost Sheep, or a Valuable lost coin, prior to being found, saved. Lk 15 details that.

The elect first fell in Adam, thats when they became lost, and thats when they became the objects of Christs recovery.

 

[brightfame52]

More lies from the keyboard of brightfame52. all you're doing is feeding your flesh when you lie like that.


Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
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Yes you do deny Justification by Faith, because Faith shows one that Christ Justified them by His Blood Rom 5:9 which you deny.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus makes clear that they do not hear because they reject.

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

They rejected Jesus. Because He told them truth they did not want to hear, they stopped their own ears.
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Again Jesus at that occasion made it clear who it is that hears the word of God Jn :47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The Apostle John does as well 1 Jn 4:6

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

They know God by personal experience of the new birth, hence they are able to spiritually hear the Truth the Apostles teach about Christ !

 

[brightfame52]

Justification by God is manifested by the Resurrection of Christ 2

Now that God has declared them Justified and forgiven and Acquitted before Him by Christ's [Their Covenant Surety Head] Resurrection from the dead, Its once again to be declared as a Spiritual Testimony to their souls, this is by God given Faith through the New Birth, which Faith is the substance of[Spiritual] things hoped for and the evidence of [Spiritual] things not seen Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The Justified and Acquitted ones BY nature cannot see or perceive their Justification, so Paul writes 1 Cor 2:7-12

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the[Spiritual] things that are freely given to us of God.

The deep things of God Vs 10 means things Spiritual related to Divine Things and Justification hidden in God Himself, not knowable by man ! 15

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You need to be regenerated to hear and believe.

Another claim which thus far you have not proven according to Scripture, even though we are 143+pages into this thread.

All you have provided is your manipulation of the text which, if God had written the words in the order you insist, I would agree with you. Since God did not write the words in the order you insist, I do not agree with you. I will stick with Scripture.

Jesus told us that its the person who is of God that hears Gods words Jn 8:47 Thats regeneration. No spiritual hearing without spiritual life and ears.

Jesus makes clear that they do not hear because they reject.

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

They rejected Jesus. Because He told them truth they did not want to hear, they stopped their own ears.

Whenever scripture says anything about a person believing in the context of salvation, the one believing was regenerated, a new creature, else they cant hear nor believe spiritually unto a spiritual conversion.

Scripturally unsound dogma.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Hear ... then believe ... then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise = regeneration.

You manipulate Scripture to your own detriment.

Just believe what is written and leave the error of your dogma

whenever scripture talks about hearing and believing the Gospel Truth that presupposes the ones doing that have been regenerated.

manipulating Scripture to align with your erroneous dogma does not change Scripture to what you claim.

I have shown you from Scripture that you hear then believe then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

The sealing takes place at the time a person is born again. The sealing represents ownership:

Sealed = Greek 4972 sphragízō = to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed – HELPS Word-studies.

You don't want to believe what is written? That is on you. You are stopping your own ears ... just like those folks Jesus talked to in John 8:45.
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[reneweddaybyday]

The act of believing has never ever Justified one single person before God, but Jesus blood has

We all agree it is God Who justifies freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom 3:24).

You do not agree with Rom 3:25 when you disregard faith:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood – Romans 3:25.

it was shed for many before they believed, hence they were justified before God by it before they believed

so none of those OT folks were justified because the Lord Jesus Christ was crucified after they lived their lives??? Your dogma does not withstand even the slightest scrutiny ... let go of your error.

You deny the testimony of Christs resurrection

nope ... that I do not hold to your erroneous dogma does not equal your fallacious accusation.

So now you're saying that in Romans 4:3, when God wrote:

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness

God was not referring to the record in Genesis 15 where God said

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness

God was referring to the record in Genesis 12? That's what you want me to believe???

So its clear that he Abraham had already Christ righteousness imputed to him

you're just making stuff up in order to align Scripture to your dogma.

Romans 4:3 quotes Genesis 15:6. Period.

You want to manipulate Scripture to have it line up with your erroneous dogma? that, again, is on you.

I know you still dont understand these things because unfortunaetly you are blind

not so blind that I do not see your manipulation of Scripture ... redirecting what is written in Romans 4:3 to a record unrelated to what was intended by the Author of Scripture.

you blind to them and cannot understand them

the one who is blind is the one who manipulates Scripture in futile attempts to align Scripture to erroneous dogma.

Romans 4:3 quotes from Genesis 15:6 and your redirection to Genesis 12 is error on your part.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Again, that I do not agree with your erroneous dogma does not mean that I "don’t believe" God is the One Who justifies. Your accusation is just deflection on your part and an avoidance tactic because you are unable to refute the central point.

A deceived person doesn't know it, they think they believe the truth but they really dont, what they believe is a lie 2 Thess 2:11

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

the one who "think they believe the truth but they really dont, what they believe is a lie" is the one who manipulates Scripture in a futile attempt to align Scripture to erroneous dogma.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Now = Greek word nyn ... now justified

Notice God did not write "Much more then, being then justified by His blood". God wrote now justified because of what is written in Romans 5:1.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

They are physically born a wicked sinner in 1952 Justified from all their wickedness and sinfulness they are going to be committing.

nope ... born a sinner and justified when they believe ... just as is written in Scripture:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


vs 24 – righteousness is imputed when a person believes on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead ... not before.

vs 1 - therefore being justified by faith ... the text does not read "therefore being justified before faith".

What you think that Christ didnt shed His Blood for an individual and their sins until they were born ?

That I have never stated what you claim will not stop you from endlessly claiming I said that ...

Yes but its reasonably implied!

you proved my point.
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[reneweddaybyday]

God having worked out His eternal purpose in eternity past does not negate the need for faith on the part of mankind.

Another senseless comment.

nope ... truth of Scripture

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

After hearing the gospel, if the hearer does not place his/her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (which is the only provision for forgiveness of sins), he/she will not receive the forgiveness. Not because it is not available to them, but because they reject that which God provided.

False teaching

nope ... truth of Scripture

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

In vs 18, the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain.

In vs 19, we see that God has revealed Himself to those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

In vs 20, we see that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Heb 9:12 shows that those for whom Christ died are Justified

more manipulation of Scripture. The Lord Jesus Christ died for the world ... the whole world ... and whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.

Some folks believe the lie of the adversary and end up being cast into the lake of fire due to their own decision to reject that which God has so freely provided for them to be saved.

God's stated desire:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...
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[reneweddaybyday]

the Gospel, its in the spiritual things catagory.

nope ... you want to claim the gospel is the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom? I have shared with you the truth of 1 Cor 2:6-14 and you reject. That is on you.

Then you go around spreading the lie of the adversary that folks "cannot receive or understand ... the Gospel". Again, that is on you.

the natural man cannot spiritually discern those things of God which the Gospel makes known

The Gospel makes known the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Word of God makes known the Gospel.

In addition to the Gospel, the Word of God makes known the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom.

The Gospel is the Gospel ... not hid but proclaimed throughout the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation.

The hidden wisdom is the hidden wisdom and is revealed to those who are mature, of full age (1 Cor 2:6). And God continues to reveal deeper truths to the born again one from the time he/she is first born again as he/she feeds on the Word of God.

God expects the born again one to grow up spiritually to the point where he/she is not tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14).

Your failure to comprehend the point is because you equate all of Scripture to be the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom of 1 Cor 2:7 (which is what 1 Cor 2:13-14 speaks of).

Not all of Scripture is the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom (1 Cor 2:7).

Some of Scripture recites history and no "spiritual discernment" is required in order to comprehend what is written.

That you reject this truth does not change the fact that it is true.

The Gospel is the Wisdom of God, in that its about Christ who is the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Now this wisdom of God Paul writes 1 Cor 2:7

no, no, no!!!

In agreement that the Lord Jesus Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God as revealed in 1 Cor 1:24.

However, 1 Cor 2:7 speaks of the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom.

The Lord Jesus Christ is revealed throughout all of Scripture ... from Genesis to Revelation.

God did not ever (nor does He now, nor will He in the future) hide the Lord Jesus Christ.

You err in your attempt to align Scripture to your dogma. Align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma does not align, get rid of the error!!!


1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Prove = Greek word dokimázō which means to test, examine, prove, scrutinize (to see whether a thing be genuine or not).

Only hold on to that which passes the test. If something doesn't pass the test, let it go.

Your equating the "gospel of Christ" to the "hidden wisdom" of God is error which you need to let go.
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[reneweddaybyday]

The parables in Luke 15 do not support your claim.

In the case of the lost sheep, the one who wandered off already belonged to the shepherd.

In the case of the forgiving father, both sons were sons of the father. One wandered off and the father watched and waited for him to return. The son who remained home was chastened by his father for his poor attitude.

Your examples fail to establish your claim. Both would be similar to one who is already a believer but who has wandered off ... they are not indicative of one who is not a believer before wandering off.

Yes again a person is a child of God, or a precious lost Sheep, or a Valuable lost coin, prior to being found, saved. Lk 15 details that.

nope ... no faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, not a child of God

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The elect first fell in Adam

Adam was created in the image/likeness of God (Gen 1:26). All descendants of Adam were/are/will be born in the image and likeness of their natural father and mother (Gen 5:3).

thats when they became lost, and thats when they became the objects of Christs recovery.

... "objects of Christs recovery"

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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[reneweddaybyday]

More lies from the keyboard of brightfame52. all you're doing is feeding your flesh when you lie like that.

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Yes you do deny Justification by Faith

hahahahahahaha!!!

The one who denies "Justification by Faith" is the one who claims:

No, those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners

... lie from the pit of hell.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Jesus makes clear that they do not hear because they reject.

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

They rejected Jesus. Because He told them truth they did not want to hear, they stopped their own ears.

Again Jesus at that occasion made it clear who it is that hears the word of God Jn :47

Your continued manipulation of Scripture does not negate the truth of Scripture.

Jesus makes clear that they do not hear because they reject.

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Scripturally, a person is considered to be of God when he/she does not reject the truth of Scripture when the gospel is spoken to him/her and he/she is born again of God.

Natural man is not of God ... natural man is "of" their earthly father and mother.

Once a person is born again, he/she is of God because at that point, he/she is born again of Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit seals him/her and is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession:

Ephesians 1:

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

vs 13 ... hear ... then believe ... then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise = regeneration

vs 14 ... the word "earnest" is translated from the Greek word arrhabṓn, which means

arrhabṓn ("down-payment pledge") is the regular term in NT times for "earnest-money," i.e. advance-payment that guarantees the rest will be given. (arrhabṓn) then represents full security backed by the purchaser who supplies sufficient proof they will fulfill the entire pledge (promise) – HELPS Word-studies

The earnest of the Spirit represents full security backed by the Purchaser Who supplies sufficient proof that He will fulfill the entire pledge.

God is the Guarantor ... the earnest of the Spirit represents the full security that the entire pledge will be fulfilled. He is faithful Who promised.

1 Jn 4:6

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

They know God by personal experience of the new birth, hence they are able to spiritually hear the Truth the Apostles teach about Christ !

So they need to have "experience of the new birth" (which is to be born again) in order to be born again???

Under your erroneous dogma, how many times must a person be born again before he/she is really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???
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[reneweddaybyday]

Now that God has declared them Justified and forgiven and Acquitted before Him by Christ's [Their Covenant Surety Head] Resurrection from the dead

a person must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


a person is not "declared ... Justified" until he/she believes the Lord Jesus Christ arose from the dead.

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
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