Who are the “cloud of witnesses,” and how is it they “surround” us

[Shilo]

1. Are the faithful who have gone before us spectators to the race each of us is running?

2. Are they witnesses through their stories? As we read their stories and see how they relied on God through good and bad times through faith. We see how God was with them and helped each of them. We learn about God through their lives, what he expects from us, and how he reveals himself to us.

I have always believed that number 2 is the answer, but today I heard the cloud of witnesses preached from the point of view of option 1. wanting to know others opinions

 

[Pilgrimshope]

1. Are the faithful who have gone before us spectators to the race each of us is running?

2. Are they witnesses through their stories? As we read their stories and see how they relied on God through good and bad times through faith. We see how God was with them and helped each of them. We learn about God through their lives, what he expects from us, and how he reveals himself to us.

I have always believed that number 2 is the answer, but today I heard the cloud of witnesses preached from the point of view of option 1. wanting to know others opinions

“Are the faithful who have gone before us spectators to the race each of us is running?”

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭

“And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:6, 8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’d say it is the lords heavenly kingdom that’s witnessing and even aiding us he sets hedges around us angels defending us at times and for certain purposes things like that also

awe have the witness of scripture but also what that scripture says about those who are well alive but no longer in this earth

In the ot it’s constantly God looking down from his throne into earth observing mankind and searching for righteousness among them for a
Mediator

even in the new we see angels peering into earth for that purpose I’d say it’s the kingdom of heaven only my own opinion however

 

[Nehemiah6]

Are the faithful who have gone before us spectators to the race each of us is running?

The saints who have passed on are not "dead" or "sleeping" but very much awake and alive in the New Jerusalem in Heaven. They are presented to us as "so great a cloud of witnesses". Witnesses must not only be alive but alert and observant. So evidently the saints in Heaven are observing the saints on earth and noting how they are running their Christian "race". Of course they are invisible to us but we may be visible to them.

 

[persistent]

1. Are the faithful who have gone before us spectators to the race each of us is running?

Alexander MacLaren

https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-23.htm

‘The spirits of... men made perfect.’ That is to say, they dwell freed from the incubus and limitations, and absolved from the activities, of a bodily organisa-tion. We cannot understand such a condition. To us it may seem to mean passivity or almost unconsciousness, but we know, as another New Testament writer has told us, that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord; and that in some deep, and to us now undiscoverable, fashion, that which the corporeal frame does for men here, immersed in the material world, there the encircling Christ in whom they rest does for them. We know little more, but we have a glimpse of a land of deep peace in which repose is not passivity nor unconsciousness; any more than service is weariness. And there we have to leave it, knowing only this, that it is possible for a man to exist and to be, in a relative sense, perfected without a body. Then, further, these spirits are ‘perfect.’

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The saints who have passed on are not "dead" or "sleeping" but very much awake and alive in the New Jerusalem in Heaven. They are presented to us as "so great a cloud of witnesses". Witnesses must not only be alive but alert and observant. So evidently the saints in Heaven are observing the saints on earth and noting how they are running their Christian "race". Of course they are invisible to us but we may be visible to them.

Àmen often in the ot it says God looked into earth to observe man , at other times men appear having been sent and speak as if the have seen what was happening and even intervene on behalf of gods people angels also at times

 

[Webers.Home]

.
• Heb 12:1 . .Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses all
around us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so
easily entangles us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before
us,

The comparison is made to sporting events-- e.g. baseball, football, track
and field, hockey, basketball, etc --where the audience is basically seated in
a circle or an oval watching the games.

The term "cloud" was apparently an ancient colloquialism simply referring to
large numbers of just about anything. Compare Gen 15:5 where "stars" are
a term for the same purpose.

Well, for one; the passage suggests that folks on the other side are alive and
conscious.

It also suggests they're all eavesdroppers and peeping Toms with nothing
better to do.

Another audience we might consider are the fallen angels, a.k.a. demons. No
doubt they stalk us every moment of our lives. I mean, if 1Pet 5:8 is true of
the Devil, then it's likely true of his minions too.

However; I don't think the audience in this instance pertains to either
deceased saints or the spirit hordes, rather, I kind of think it pertains to
ordinary people all around us and those we encounter in our daily lives.

The moment someone comes out as a Christian, then kibitzers, fault-finders
and blood-thirsty skeptics and critics start watching their every move for
opportunities to boo and/or destroy their credibility.

"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do
men light a candle, and put it under a bowl, but on a lamp stand; and it
gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in
such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who
is in heaven." (Matt 5:14-16)

I don't know exactly how the world glorifies God when it sees Christians
putting their religion into practice; but I'm pretty sure the world has nothing
but disgust for a hypocrite's religion. (cf. 2Sam 2:14) Never let it be said
that your actions speak so loud that people can't hear a word you're saying.
_

 

[Mem]

.
• Heb 12:1 . .Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses all
around us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so
easily entangles us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before
us,

The comparison is made to sporting events-- e.g. baseball, football, track
and field, hockey, basketball, etc --where the audience is basically seated in
a circle or an oval watching the games.

The term "cloud" was apparently an ancient colloquialism simply referring to
large numbers of just about anything. Compare Gen 15:5 where "stars" are
a term for the same purpose.

Well, for one; the passage suggests that folks on the other side are alive and
conscious.

It also suggests they're all eavesdroppers and peeping Toms with nothing
better to do.

Another audience we might consider are the fallen angels, a.k.a. demons. No
doubt they stalk us every moment of our lives. I mean, if 1Pet 5:8 is true of
the Devil, then it's likely true of his minions too.

However; I don't think the audience in this instance pertains to either
deceased saints or the spirit hordes, rather, I kind of think it pertains to
ordinary people all around us and those we encounter in our daily lives.

The moment someone comes out as a Christian, then kibitzers, fault-finders
and blood-thirsty skeptics and critics start watching their every move for
opportunities to boo and/or destroy their credibility.

"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do
men light a candle, and put it under a bowl, but on a lamp stand; and it
gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in
such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who
is in heaven." (Matt 5:14-16)

I don't know exactly how the world glorifies God when it sees Christians
putting their religion into practice; but I'm pretty sure the world has nothing
but disgust for a hypocrite's religion. (cf. 2Sam 2:14) Never let it be said
that your actions speak so loud that people can't hear a word you're saying.
_

I agree, the sentence structures indicate the clouds being great and not so much the witnesses however great many may suggest it.

 

[Mem]

I do wonder if someone with a heavy accent spoke this verse enough times that, eventually, the word 'clouds' became "crowds."

 

[Webers.Home]

.
"cloud" is common in the classic writers for indicating large numbers of
people, e.g. Homer II. 4:274, 23:133; Statius 1:340, and other instances
adduced in Wetstein, in loc. (Barnes Notes)

Compare 1Thess 4:17 where "in the clouds" actually lacks a Greek word for
"the" so that it can be read "in clouds" meaning great numbers, like a swarm
of locusts and/or mosquitoes; which is to be expected seeing as how every
true Christian since the book of Acts till now will undergo resurrection all at
the same time.
_

 

[Shilo]

2. Are they witnesses through their stories? As we read their stories and see how they relied on God through good and bad times through faith. We see how God was with them and helped each of them. We learn about God through their lives, what he expects from us, and how he reveals himself to us.

Job 14:10-12
“But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?
“As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,
So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep

Daniel 12:2
Verse Concepts
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment

1 these 4
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.


ECC 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.


1 cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Ecc 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

 

[studentoftheword]

Thread Title

Who are the “cloud of witnesses,” and how is it they “surround” us

1. Are the faithful who have gone before us spectators to the race each of us is running?

I say
I din't think they are actual spectators ---I think it is more a figurative statement and means we should act as though they are seeing us and are cheering us on to be victorious in finishing the Faith race we are running ----

I agree with your quote here ------nailed it for me

2. Are they witnesses through their stories? As we read their stories and see how they relied on God through good and bad times through faith. We see how God was with them and helped each of them. We learn about God through their lives, what he expects from us, and how he reveals himself to us.

I say --------The cloud of witnesses are listed in Hebrews 11 ---sometimes you need to go back a chapter to find the answer -----Scripture will always answer scripture ----you just need to know where to look -----ask and allow the Holy spirit to guide you to the answer ====

Hebrews 11

4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

how is it they “surround” us

I say ---they are our witnesses to the truth of God's faithfulness to do as He says He will do in His Word

Hebrews 12
Jesus, the Example

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of [a]witnesses [who by faith have testified to the truth of God’s absolute faithfulness], stripping off every unnecessary weight and the sin which so easily and cleverly entangles us, let us run with endurance and active persistence the race that is set before us,

2 [looking away from all that will distract us and] focusing our eyes on Jesus, who is the Author and Perfecter of faith [the first incentive for our belief and the One who brings our faith to maturity], who for the joy [of accomplishing the goal] set before Him endured the cross, [b]disregarding the shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God [revealing His deity, His authority, and the completion of His work].

 

[oyster67]

1. Are the faithful who have gone before us spectators to the race each of us is running?

2. Are they witnesses through their stories? As we read their stories and see how they relied on God through good and bad times through faith. We see how God was with them and helped each of them. We learn about God through their lives, what he expects from us, and how he reveals himself to us.

I have always believed that number 2 is the answer, but today I heard the cloud of witnesses preached from the point of view of option 1. wanting to know others opinions

I would not rule out the possibility of it being both, but I agree that the main emphasis should be on #2.

Hebrews 12:1
“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,”

I would like to take this opportunity to mention another group of witnesses:
2 Kings 6:17
“And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.”

 

[Webers.Home]

.
I advise to forget about an audience that can't be seen, and worry about
audiences that can be seen.

• Col 4:5 . .Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the
time.

Christian wisdom should consist of Christian moral values, Christian conduct,
and Christian character.

I once heard a story about a well-meaning sidewalk evangelist who was
handing out Gospel tracts. A man came by and asked the side-walker what
he was doing. The side-walker handed the man a tract and said: Here, read
this. Well, the man was illiterate. So he told the side-walker: I can't read
your tract, so I'll just watch your tracks.

In other words; don't just talk the talk-- walk the walk too: live it, because
for some people, your persona and your lifestyle speak volumes.
_