Jesus is God

[TheLearner]

I agree with a good percentage, probably around 95%, but there's something itching at me about Colossians 1 that I think didn't get addressed; it's verse 15:

So to tie this all together, how does this refer to consubstantiality between the Father and Son if the Son is the firstborn. Doesn't being a firstborn mean having a birthday and imply a starting point?

Colossians 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Also, if you want, just for fun, to see some very interesting things, run a word search on the word "father" in the New Testament and examine all of the instances where Paul, Peter, or Jude mentioned the Father. They made distinction between the Father and Son, calling God the Father and calling Jesus Lord and/or the Son of God.

firstborn has to do with preemeance, not birth order.

"
What does preeminence in the Bible mean?


Finally, Jesus is “preeminent.” That means he is first. In everything. First in importance, first in honor, first in exaltation. And the grammar of the verse indicates that Jesus is the “head” and the “beginning” and the “firstborn” in order that (hina) or for the purpose that Jesus might be the preeminent one."
https://www.google.com/search?q=preemeance&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS1006US1006&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Colossians 1:15-19
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Hebrews 1:2-3
has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

John 1:15
John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”

John 3:31
He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

John 3:35
The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Colossians 2:9-10
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Hebrews 1:6
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
' Let all the angels of God worship Him.'

 

[TheLearner]

Well he was born in the flesh thru Mary..(although God is the Father, not Joseph).

But He was pre existing before this .. Abraham rejoiced to see His day.

But there is no beginning birth for Jesus in the OT.. He has always been.

I need to look at that one more.

"In the begining" Gen 1, John 1

Micah 5:2
Verse Concepts
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”

John 1:1
Verse Concepts
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:58
Verse Concepts
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

John 17:5
Verse Concepts
Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 17:24
Verse Concepts
Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Colossians 1:17
Verse Concepts
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Hebrews 7:3
Verse Concepts
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

Revelation 22:13
Verse Concepts
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Colossians 1:15
Verse Concepts
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Hebrews 1:11-12
They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”

1 John 1:1-2
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:15
Verse Concepts
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”

Revelation 1:17-18
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Revelation 2:8
Verse Concepts
“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write:The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Preexistence-Of-Christ

 

[Runningman]

firstborn has to do with preemeance, not birth order.

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

[wattie]

If Jesus pre-existed.. then He is fully God. It's the only way it can be. Almost all references to God before the NT are of a fully God being.

 

[Walter]

yes brother it takes the revelation of the gospel ( especially johns account ) for someone to come to that correct conclusion.

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ashen we believe in Jesus we’re believing in the true God who is the father son and holy ghost manifest in one individual, Jesus Christ

each aspect of God serves a distinct purpose but he is one father son and holy spirit is one being manifest three ways

Yes, this OP is excellent, He is also called the Son Of The Living God as the scriptures have said.

Love, Walter and Debbie

 

[Runningman]

I think you're missing the point. Remember what I said in the first sentence of my last post: Consubstantiality pertains to nature/essence, not function. The point of citing Colossians, was not to prove consubstantiality from Colossians, but to solely make a point about the prepositions used in 1 Cor. 8:6.

In my concluding remarks I stated,



Did you catch the point I was making? It is not the prepositions in 1 Cor. 8:6 which speak of consubstantiality; rather, it is from the fact in 1 Cor. 8:6 Jesus' work in creation is placed in juxtaposition with God's. Hence, it is this eternality aspect which speaks of consubstantiality. Eternality is unique to God's being, so for Jesus to then possess a trait that is unique to God's being would then make Him consubstantial.

That said, the only way Colossians 1:15 could be taken as a reference to Jesus not being consubstantial with the Father, is if it somehow contradicts the notion of eternality, i.e., refering to Him being created before creation itself. But I don't think that even you suppose that's what Paul is stating. I would really love to get into the details of Col. 1:15, because I think there's a lot in the text that flies against the notion of Jesus as being created. I am actually working on a couple different projects, and Col. 1:15 takes center stage in one of them.

Finally, in your concluding remarks you state,



But what does this really prove, and how does it relate to our discussion on 1 Cor. 8:6? I have already stated that 1 Cor. 8:6 quite clearly distinguishes between Father and Son, but that they are both participants in the divine decree of bringing forth all of creation. And as expressed elsewhere, for two people to be consubstantial with one another would require them to be distinct.

From what I can tell we more or less agree. I can think of nothing to add.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, this OP is excellent, He is also called the Son Of The Living God as the scriptures have said.

Love, Walter and Debbie

ayes that’s actually where everything comes together in one in the son he’s the full expression of God

That’s the confession towards salvation and then later we learn the rest

actually how many titles are in the Bible pertaining to Christ ? It’s a good study e.g. “ the good shepherd , the bread of life , the light of the world , the bright and morning star , the root and seed of David , the seed and son of Abraham ect…

Ive never counted but there’s probably 50 I’d bet all those titles come together in Christ is sort of my point the only place we can see the fullness of God the Father son and holy ghost in one who’s name is above all names

 

[TheLearner]

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Exactly, that text also shows that firstborn has to do with preemeance.

26 In the same way the Spirit also comes to help us, weak as we are. For we do not know how we ought to pray; the Spirit himself pleads with God for us in groans that words cannot express. 27 And God, who sees into our hearts, knows what the thought of the Spirit is; because the Spirit pleads with God on behalf of his people and in accordance with his will.

28 We know that in all things God works for good with those who love him,[d] those whom he has called according to his purpose. 29 Those whom God had already chosen he also set apart to become like his Son, so that the Son would be the first among many believers. 30 And so those whom God set apart, he called; and those he called, he put right with himself, and he shared his glory with them.

CEB
We know this because God knew them in advance, and he decided in advance that they would be conformed to the image of his Son. That way his Son would be the first of many brothers and sisters.

CEV
and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so his Son would be the first of many children.

EXB
·God knew them before he made the world [L For those whom he foreknew…], ·and he chose them […he also predestined/chose beforehand] to be ·like [molded to the pattern of; conformed to the image of] his Son so that Jesus would be the firstborn [C the preeminent one, but also indicating others will follow] of many brothers and sisters [C Jesus’ resurrection confirms that his followers will also share in God’s glory].

PHILLIPS
Moreover we know that to those who love God, who are called according to his plan, everything that happens fits into a pattern for good. God, in his foreknowledge, chose them to bear the family likeness of his Son, that he might be the eldest of a family of many brothers. He chose them long ago; when the time came he called them, he made them righteous in his sight, and then lifted them to the splendour of life as his own sons.



God's Love in Christ Jesus
31 In view of all this, what can we say? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 Certainly not God, who did not even keep back his own Son, but offered him for us all! He gave us his Son—will he not also freely give us all things? 33 Who will accuse God's chosen people? God himself declares them not guilty! 34 Who, then, will condemn them? Not Christ Jesus, who died, or rather, who was raised to life and is at the right side of God, pleading with him for us!

 

[Franc254]

Jesus is the Father, the son and the Holy spirit

 

[TheLearner]

I am missing something, what does it mean Jesus is functionly God?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus is the Father, the son and the Holy spirit

Amen

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The father is a nameless title , the Son is a nameless title , the holt ghost is a nameless title Jesus is the name of the Lord and there is one Lord , one faith , one mediator between God and man , one God and father of all.

his name is Jesus

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The father the king , the prince , and the counsellor. In one Jesus who is the Christ

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8, 17-18‬ ‭

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s all of it in one the father son holt ghost our brother , our friend , our teacher , our apostle , our captain , our king , our sacrifice of Passover , our creator and God and he’s become all we ever needed or will need or could need to believe in and be saved

In all religions known no God has ever done what ours has done to save his people

 

[Mindwrencher]

This has been covered already, there is another at least one thread called 'Christ is God', but I think there is too much lowering of Jesus' status in these forums at the moment.

When the Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus, it was for blasphemy. Jesus was making Himself equal with God. So.. that does not mean that He *wasn't* God. It means He is equal. Jesus is distinct from the Father.. but not inferior. Inferiority.. and you are getting into Polytheism.

Jesus also says to them 'before Abraham was, I AM'... that is a clear reference to God talking to Moses at the burning bush. He is again making Himself equal with God.. and saying those words from God are His words. He is identifying Himself with Yahweh.. the national God of Israel... and beyond that.

Jesus saying 'The Father is greater than I'

With this verse, in the passage He ascends to be one with the Father later, after saying it.

If I say.. the president is greater than I.. is he an ontologically superior being?

No.. he is not. He is a flawed human being like I am, but he is in a greater position.

In Revelation.. this is Jesus' words to the churches.. it also the Holy Spirit's word to the churches.. and then Jesus is referred to with 'Alpha and Omega' terms.. which is used for the Father.

You can't avoid this! Jesus DID claim, indirectly to be God!

Then there is also the Jewish concept of agency.. the messager taking an originators message.. the agent becomes equal to the messenger. So when Jesus says 'by the hand of the Father'.. 'and I and the Father are one'.. things like that... to the Jews... that is saying 'I am God'.. His words are equal to the Fathers.

It goes on and on.. such as 'all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily'

And also that Jesus accepted worship of Himself.

'Son' meaning 'image' 'expression' 'manifestation' of God.. not 'inferior, born out of'

If anyone is going to claim Jesus is not God.. equal to the Father.. that is not christianity. It's something else.

John says (Jn 1;1---) that Jesus is God's word made flesh. God is a manifold being: Him, His Spirit, His Word, His Wisdom, etc. Can any of those be separated from Him. Every single one is "Who" He is. He cannot be comprehended, explained or labeled with a name, like "God". He is un-nameable. His Word is as much Him as any other "part". Every "part" of Him is an entity unto itself, who can comprehend that? Yet it is so simple, everyone actually "gets it".
The same can be said of man. Can a man's word exist without him? His own spirit? Man is also a manifold being: Body, mind, spirit, soul, etc.
One cannot read "God's" Word and not come to that realization.

 

[wattie]

Jesus is the Father, the son and the Holy spirit

Okay.. so this is another off shoot topic in defining the Trinity.. where Jesus becomes the whole Godhead.

The issue with this is what you do with verses where Jesus talks to the Father and sends the Holy Spirit.

I believe the 3 in the one Triune God are not seperate .. but they are distinct.

Each persona has its own identity and expression.

But Jesus being the one being that contains all 3.. I don't quite get.

He is obviously fully God.. co-equal to the Father and Holy Spirit.. and co-eternal and co-existing with them. But actually the Father and Holy Spirit being Jesus?

I.can agree in some sense He is.. in that if there is one Triune God.. then they all equally interrelated and not seperate. But their expression and roles are distinct from each other.

 

[PennEd]

Disturbing thread.

I guess it’s possible to be saved and yet deny that Jesus is God, but I don’t see how.

The denial of Jesus’s divinity is a damnable heresy. I’m surprised that it is permitted here.

Catholic doctrine is rightfully not permitted here, yet even THEY do not deny that Jesus is God.

 

[Franc254]

Okay.. so this is another off shoot topic in defining the Trinity.. where Jesus becomes the whole Godhead.

The issue with this is what you do with verses where Jesus talks to the Father and sends the Holy Spirit.

I believe the 3 in the one Triune God are not seperate .. but they are distinct.

Each persona has its own identity and expression.

But Jesus being the one being that contains all 3.. I don't quite get.

He is obviously fully God.. co-equal to the Father and Holy Spirit.. and co-eternal and co-existing with them. But actually the Father and Holy Spirit being Jesus?

I.can agree in some sense He is.. in that if there is one Triune God.. then they all equally interrelated and not seperate. But their expression and roles are distinct from each other.

who is the son according to you?

 

[wattie]

who is the son according to you?

Jesus is fully God, sitting at the right hand of the Father. Sinless, omnipotent, omniscient, almighty, everlasting Father, Prince of peace, Wonderful Counsellor.

No longer limited by the flesh.
Existed before Abraham and uncreated.

Can be offended by our sin, but has huge grave to stay with a believer when they do sin. Is 'in the midst' of a church that He would call His own.

What the Father does, Jesus does. What the Comforter does, He does.

All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily.

The Father created all things thru Jesus, and in Jesus all things consist.. because He is the Word.

 

[wattie]

Disturbing thread.

I guess it’s possible to be saved and yet deny that Jesus is God, but I don’t see how.

The denial of Jesus’s divinity is a damnable heresy. I’m surprised that it is permitted here.

Catholic doctrine is rightfully not permitted here, yet even THEY do not deny that Jesus is God.

Yes, the Catholic Creed has Jesus as fully God, yet in this site there are some professing to be saved that lower Jesus status to lesser than the Father.

 

[Franc254]

Jesus is fully God, sitting at the right hand of the Father. Sinless, omnipotent, omniscient, almighty, everlasting Father, Prince of peace, Wonderful Counsellor.

No longer limited by the flesh.
Existed before Abraham and uncreated.

Can be offended by our sin, but has huge grave to stay with a believer when they do sin. Is 'in the midst' of a church that He would call His own.

What the Father does, Jesus does. What the Comforter does, He does.

All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily.

The Father created all things thru Jesus, and in Jesus all things consist.. because He is the Word.

so according to you Jesus is just restricted to the son?

 

[wattie]

so according to you Jesus is just restricted to the son?

Yes... although I don't believe He is seperated from the Father and Holy Spirit.

In heaven-- one being, God. All 3 as full expressions of Him in that one being.

 

[Franc254]

Yes... although I don't believe He is seperated from the Father and Holy Spirit.

In heaven-- one being, God. All 3 as full expressions of Him in that one being.

Jesus is eternal and thats a fact fine but is the son an eternal authority
?