If we want to celebrate the birth of Christ, why not pick a new date and new name?

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ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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The apostate church = God's unfaithful people

Hosea 2:1 Say to your brethren, ‘My people,’
And to your sisters, ‘Mercy is shown.


God’s Unfaithful People
2 “Bring charges against your mother, bring charges;
For she is not My wife, nor am I her Husband!
Let her put away her harlotries from her sight,
And her adulteries from between her breasts;


Your brothers and your sisters are not your mother. The condemnation is not on the believers but on the system. So if the church is apostate, if they worship Mary, or if they celebrate pagan festivals like Christmas and Easter, then that is not the sin of some brother or sister who just got saved, it is the sin that has been hidden in the three measures of meal which has leavened the whole lump.

3 Lest I strip her naked
And expose her, as in the day she was born,
And make her like a wilderness,
And set her like a dry land,
And slay her with thirst.


Why do you think Christianity is losing members? They have been stripped naked. We have seen the lies, the hypocrisy and the sins of many of the Christian leaders and priests. They have also become a dry land. If you go to half of these Christian churches do you come away feeling refreshed and invigorated for the week to come? Over the last couple of years many crazy things have been happening and many people may have gone to church to hear their insight. Yet half the churches will not talk about these things, they have a mandate to not talk about the rapture, not talk about prophecies, not talk about the end times. So like the wise men from the east that came at the time of Jesus and went to Jerusalem these seekers realize these churches have nothing and so they leave and are even warned to not go back with a testimony of how they found Jesus.

4 “I will not have mercy on her children,
For they are the children of harlotry.
5 For their mother has played the harlot;
She who conceived them has behaved shamefully.
For she said, ‘I will go after my lovers,
Who give me my bread and my water,
My wool and my linen,
My oil and my drink.’


Again, we have to distinguish between the brothers, the sisters, the mother and her children. The Catholic church and the Protestant denominations are like a mother and her children. They all play the harlot. Why is it that the Catholic church controls some of the biggest banks in the world? Why are there denominations with a "billion dollar trust fund"? Prior to the pandemic you might think this is some looney tunes conspiracy theory. However, what happened during the pandemic? How is it that the churches, representing over 50% of America went along with a shutdown without a peep? Granted there were a few pastors and churches who did make a peep, but they did not represent the 50% of America, they were not in these big denominations. Yes, they made the claim that they were concerned about the health and welfare of society, and that is probably true of many useful idiots. But there were certainly enough educated biologists, virologists and doctors in the US to warn that this strategy was counter productive and negative. There were experts at the time who were arguing the shut down should be limited to those who are most vulnerable. If you let everyone else continue to go to school and work we will get to herd immunity quickest. They were censored. This is a standard understanding of how a virus is transmitted, it is "survival of the fittest" at its most basic core. Create an environment where the least virulent strains will be "fittest" and you will eliminate the virus the quickest. All you needed was thermometers at the door to make sure no one entered the building with a fever. The leaders of these churches are supposed to be shepherds of the sheep. Even if they themselves are not well educated on this they certainly have members of the church who are and who they could consult. Instead of guarding the sheep from the wolves they collaborated with the wolves.

6 “Therefore, behold,
I will hedge up your way with thorns,
And wall her in,
So that she cannot find her paths.
7 She will chase her lovers,
But not overtake them;
Yes, she will seek them, but not find
them.


We are seeing all kinds of thorny laws being passed which are hedging in these churches. If they don't comply they will be sued. If they do comply it will drive out every real believer they have. The church is supposed to take the narrow way that leads to life, instead they took the broad way which has led them to a briar patch and now they are surrounded by thorns. They thought that if they are good to the world the world will be good to them. The world lies in the evil one, they hate the church, you were played for a fool.

Then she will say,
‘I will go and return to my first husband,
For then it was better for me than now.’
8 For she did not know
That I gave her grain, new wine, and oil,
And multiplied her silver and gold—
Which they prepared for Baal.

9 “Therefore I will return and take away

My grain in its time
And My new wine in its season,
And will take back My wool and My linen,
Given to cover her nakedness.
10 Now I will uncover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers,
And no one shall deliver her from My hand.


This is what the tribulation is. There will be famine, poverty, and nakedness. The apostate church will become the most despised people. The basic reason most people went there was they wanted "to just get along". "Let's not make waves". Unbelievers are "offended by gospel preachers" so let's not be so offensive. Stop talking about sin, stop talking about judgement and hell. As a result you stopped being a witness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease,
Her feast days,
Her New Moons,
Her Sabbaths—
All her appointed feasts.


What are the feast days of the apostate church? No doubt Christmas and Easter. I suppose in the US we have other holidays as well, Mother's day, Labor day, Memorial day, July 4th and Thanksgiving. But if we are talking about the apostate church and her "mirth" then we must be talking about Christmas. As one of the songs says "it is the happiest time of the year". It is certainly one of her appointed feasts. Notice, this is not one of God's appointed feasts. There is nothing in the New Testament or Old Testament suggesting that Christmas is an appointed feast of God. This is something that belongs solely to the apostate church. With Easter it comes at the same time as God's appointed feast of Passover and so there is a little overlap and confusion there. But that is not true of Christmas. Also Christmas is the perfect example of how the apostate church "chased her lovers". They claim that this toxic brew of Jesus born in a manger mixed with Santa Claus delivering presents in a sleigh is good for the gospel. The world completely embraces Xmas, the same cannot be said of Thanksgiving. The world hates the idea of "thanksgiving" and wants to call it indigenous people's day, so instead of a day of giving thanks to God it becomes a day of self flagellation for the sins of people committed centuries ago. Now if you destroy all her appointed feasts that tells me no one will be going to the church anymore. It will be deserted. Consider the rapture. Some churches will be raptured in mass. Those would be the ones you would want to go to but now they are all gone. Others will be left behind in mass, why would anyone want to continue to go there? They deceived you, they defrauded you.

12 “And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees,

Of which she has said,
‘These are my wages that my lovers have given me.’
So I will make them a forest,
And the beasts of the field shall eat them.


I was a stock broker in NYC and one of the largest funds in the city belonged to one of these denominations. They have trust funds where they may have a billion dollars invested. Being tax exempt and being around for two hundred years and you can grow an investment account.

13 I will punish her
For the days of the Baals to which she burned incense.
She decked herself with her earrings and jewelry,
And went after her lovers;
But Me she forgot,” says the Lord.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,702
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The other day I was at a food giveaway. The cars line up, get a number and receive a box of food.
Interesting..... what was the food giveaway about? Is is something that is regularly done?
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
32,748
5,748
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Interesting..... what was the food giveaway about? Is is something that is regularly done?
Yes, every week, it is sponsored by a church and various businesses give them the food to give away.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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5 Keys to Evangelism at Christ. Article from: https://thelife.com/5-keys-to-evangelism-at-christmas

"
5 KEYS TO EVANGELISM AT CHRISTMAS
VIEW SERIES / DANIEL WAGNER
1 COMMENT
One of my favorite parts of the Christmas story in Luke 2 is the shepherds. I love that the first people to be told about the coming of Jesus weren’t the religious elite or kings and rulers. Instead, they were instead common shepherds, ordinary working-class people.

When Jesus describes himself as a shepherd in the gospels, I think back to the first people who visited him as he lay in the manger.

The shepherds were the first evangelists. They took the good news that was told to them by the angels and that they witnessed with their own eyes, and shared it with everyone they met. They began the task of spreading this good news that would, as the angel said, bring great joy to all people.

If the shepherds spread the good news at the beginning of Jesus’ life on earth, Jesus commissioned his followers to spread the good news at the end of it, telling his disciples, “Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations.”

Christmas offers a unique opportunity to share the good news, but it can be difficult to know how to start. Here are 5 keys to sharing your faith during the Christmas season.

PRIME WITH PRAYER
Jesus spent 40 days fasting in the desert before beginning his ministry. He also took time away from the crowds to pray throughout his ministry (Luke 5:16). We can follow his example by first talking with God before stepping out into the world this Christmas.

Be intentional with your prayers, asking God to give you opportunities to share your faith with friends, family, neighbors, or even strangers.

Think of specific people in your life and pray that God would bring them closer to himself this Christmas. Pray for wisdom and discernment for yourself in knowing how best to love them.

START WITH SERVICE
Again we follow Christ’s example: he healed the sick, fed the hungry, and gave hope to the broken. He didn’t just preach a message, but met physical, emotional, and spiritual needs.

It can be easy to forget amidst all the Christmas cheer that many people are truly hurting at this time of year, whether visibly or beneath the surface. Consider how you can love the people around you and help meet their needs this Christmas.

That can take many forms, whether volunteering with an organization that helps the homeless, or dropping of some fresh baking at your neighbors’ or offering to shovel their driveway.

It’s a lot easier to believe that Jesus loves you when one of his followers has shown that love to you.

BE OPEN TO OPPORTUNITIES
You don’t have to go far to find Jesus at Christmas, so opportunities to share your faith can come up at almost any time. A spiritual conversation can stem from a simple question — asking how someone is planning to celebrate Christmas, for example — or something entirely unexpected.

A friend, family member, or neighbor who has previously shown no interest in church may be open to attending a Christmas Eve service in person or online. They may just be waiting for an invitation.

If you watch Christmas specials with your family, a conversation could be sparked by Linus' reciting of Luke 2:8-14 in A Charlie Brown Christmas, as he lays aside his security blanket to share the true meaning of Christmas.

Just be ready to listen, ask questions, and find out where they’re coming from.

MOVE BEYOND THE MANGER
So much of the focus at Christmas time is on the baby Jesus, lying in a manger.

That’s a great starting point for the gospel, but it’s important that the conversation doesn’t stop there. People need to know who he is, why he came, what he accomplished through his death, resurrection and ascension, and how they can follow him and be transformed by him.

GIVE IT TO GOD
Here’s some more good news about the good news: it’s not all up to you.

It can be easy to feel discouraged when it comes to evangelism. All our efforts can seem fruitless at times. But, the Bible is clear on this: we can’t save people. God does that.

It’s also important to know when to step back. Some people won’t be interested in engaging in a spiritual conversation at Christmas for various reasons. We are called to share the good news with those who want to hear it, not force people to hear it whether they want to or not.

But by taking the time to serve and love someone at Christmas, a seed can be planted. We might not even be the ones that see that seed grow, but God is in control and can do amazing things, things that we can’t even begin to imagine.

This doesn’t mean that we share the gospel once and give up. This doesn’t mean that once Christmas is over we go back to living in a Christian bubble, far removed from those who need Jesus. We must continue to serve those around us all year, building relationships, and both living and preaching the gospel as God gives us the opportunities to do so."
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
32,748
5,748
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you're slipping.... you forgot to add BAH! HUMBUG!!
People think that is a joke, but not to a five year old. Imagine your father or mother is labeled as the scrooge, the grinch, etc. This is a nasty slander. This is the evidence that this celebration is Satanic, he is the liar, the slanderer.

I have met with Christians that didn't care one iota about this holiday, didn't want to bad mouth it but at the same time didn't want to participate, they wanted to be faithful to the pure word of God and there was nothing in the word about this, though you might think some verses in Jeremiah condemn it and if you tie to Babylonian worship then of course the Bible utterly condemns it.

But there was extreme pressure on their kids in the public school. One kid was pressured by the teacher and he responded "some people celebrate Christmas, some don't, our family doesn't"
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
32,748
5,748
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5 Keys to Evangelism at Christ. Article from: https://thelife.com/5-keys-to-evangelism-at-christmas

"
5 KEYS TO EVANGELISM AT CHRISTMAS
VIEW SERIES / DANIEL WAGNER
1 COMMENT
One of my favorite parts of the Christmas story in Luke 2 is the shepherds. I love that the first people to be told about the coming of Jesus weren’t the religious elite or kings and rulers. Instead, they were instead common shepherds, ordinary working-class people.

When Jesus describes himself as a shepherd in the gospels, I think back to the first people who visited him as he lay in the manger.

The shepherds were the first evangelists. They took the good news that was told to them by the angels and that they witnessed with their own eyes, and shared it with everyone they met. They began the task of spreading this good news that would, as the angel said, bring great joy to all people.

If the shepherds spread the good news at the beginning of Jesus’ life on earth, Jesus commissioned his followers to spread the good news at the end of it, telling his disciples, “Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations.”

Christmas offers a unique opportunity to share the good news, but it can be difficult to know how to start. Here are 5 keys to sharing your faith during the Christmas season.

PRIME WITH PRAYER
Jesus spent 40 days fasting in the desert before beginning his ministry. He also took time away from the crowds to pray throughout his ministry (Luke 5:16). We can follow his example by first talking with God before stepping out into the world this Christmas.

Be intentional with your prayers, asking God to give you opportunities to share your faith with friends, family, neighbors, or even strangers.

Think of specific people in your life and pray that God would bring them closer to himself this Christmas. Pray for wisdom and discernment for yourself in knowing how best to love them.

START WITH SERVICE
Again we follow Christ’s example: he healed the sick, fed the hungry, and gave hope to the broken. He didn’t just preach a message, but met physical, emotional, and spiritual needs.

It can be easy to forget amidst all the Christmas cheer that many people are truly hurting at this time of year, whether visibly or beneath the surface. Consider how you can love the people around you and help meet their needs this Christmas.

That can take many forms, whether volunteering with an organization that helps the homeless, or dropping of some fresh baking at your neighbors’ or offering to shovel their driveway.

It’s a lot easier to believe that Jesus loves you when one of his followers has shown that love to you.

BE OPEN TO OPPORTUNITIES
You don’t have to go far to find Jesus at Christmas, so opportunities to share your faith can come up at almost any time. A spiritual conversation can stem from a simple question — asking how someone is planning to celebrate Christmas, for example — or something entirely unexpected.

A friend, family member, or neighbor who has previously shown no interest in church may be open to attending a Christmas Eve service in person or online. They may just be waiting for an invitation.

If you watch Christmas specials with your family, a conversation could be sparked by Linus' reciting of Luke 2:8-14 in A Charlie Brown Christmas, as he lays aside his security blanket to share the true meaning of Christmas.

Just be ready to listen, ask questions, and find out where they’re coming from.

MOVE BEYOND THE MANGER
So much of the focus at Christmas time is on the baby Jesus, lying in a manger.

That’s a great starting point for the gospel, but it’s important that the conversation doesn’t stop there. People need to know who he is, why he came, what he accomplished through his death, resurrection and ascension, and how they can follow him and be transformed by him.

GIVE IT TO GOD
Here’s some more good news about the good news: it’s not all up to you.

It can be easy to feel discouraged when it comes to evangelism. All our efforts can seem fruitless at times. But, the Bible is clear on this: we can’t save people. God does that.

It’s also important to know when to step back. Some people won’t be interested in engaging in a spiritual conversation at Christmas for various reasons. We are called to share the good news with those who want to hear it, not force people to hear it whether they want to or not.

But by taking the time to serve and love someone at Christmas, a seed can be planted. We might not even be the ones that see that seed grow, but God is in control and can do amazing things, things that we can’t even begin to imagine.

This doesn’t mean that we share the gospel once and give up. This doesn’t mean that once Christmas is over we go back to living in a Christian bubble, far removed from those who need Jesus. We must continue to serve those around us all year, building relationships, and both living and preaching the gospel as God gives us the opportunities to do so."
Yes, I have heard all this ad infinitum. What I would like to see are the testimonies of unbelievers who came to God because of this.

I can give you a hundred testimonies of people who came to God by receiving a bible and having someone share the gospel with them, and I can also share a hundred testimonies of people who assumed the Bible was mythology when they discovered the whole Santa Claus story was a lie.

But if this is so effective at preaching the gospel let's hear the testimonies of all those who got saved.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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India
The Bible never condemns the celebration of Christmas. God gave so many festivals to the Jews. The Incarnation of Jesus Christ Our Lord is an absolutely unparalleled event in salvation history, far greater than the Exodus or anything else in the OT. Yet if even those feasts were commemorated, so much more should Christ's Birth be. Again, if one wants to celebrate one's own birthday, and we are born sinners, imo it is totally wrong to condemn the celebration of Christ's Birthday, Who was born sinless, the Son of God, the Lamb of God, and the Savior of the world. Here is some more information on how ancient the celebration of Christmas is, going back to the early Church, the 72 disciples of Jesus Christ, and the Virgin Mary herself.

"Euodias's letter, New Testament chronology, and Christmas

From the Baptism unto the Passion of Christ there were three years; from the Passion, Resurrection, and his Ascension into Heaven unto the stoning of Stephen, seven years; from Stephen’s martyrdom unto the time when light encompassed Paul, six months. From there unto the decease of the holy mother of God, three years. [T]he period from the Nativity of Christ unto the passing of the mother of God was forty-four years; but the whole of her life, fifty-nine years. This sum obtains if it was in fact the case that she was presented at the Temple when she was three years old and there in the holy precincts spent eleven years. Then, by the priest’s hands was placed in the custody of Joseph, with whom she resided four months when she received the joyful announcement from the Angel Gabriel. However, she gave birth to the Light of this World, the twenty-fifth day of the month of December, being fifteen years of age. Following this, she passed thirty-three years, which sum also her Son completed on earth, who was even the eternal and before all ages Word. After the Cross, however, at his request she dwelt in the home of John eleven years, so that of her lifetime there were altogether fifty-nine years.²"​

This is what Evodius whom I already mentioned was one of the 72 disciples of Christ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evodius

Anyway, here's another website that mentions Christmas, a Festival of Light - when Light entered the world - connection with Hannukah, another Festival of Light, an OT one kept by the Jews:

"
Jesus—The Light of the World
Jesus said, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me
shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life”
– John 8:12



What was the significance
of this claim?



Was there a reason
He said it when He did?


YES!
Few Believers understand the prophetic significance and timing of Jesus’ statement.
He declared this truth to crowds as they gathered to celebrate the Feast of Dedication, or the Festival of Lights, also known as Hanukkah."

https://www.curtlandry.com/connecti...ber-2022&utm_content=hanukkah-christmas-guide
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,702
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People think that is a joke, but not to a five year old.
Well, I wasn't replying to a 5 year old...

I understand each person has his or her "hot buttons"..... I guess we found one of yours.

Mountains and molehills come to mind. This is not a salvation issue, and should not be treated as if it is..... IMHO, of course.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,702
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Yes, every week, it is sponsored by a church and various businesses give them the food to give away.
That is a great ministry..... one of Jesus' instructions... feed the hungry. You cannot talk to people about the gospel when they are starving. Feed them first.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,702
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OOps - BAH!!! HUMBUG!!!!! (what's that sound of chains dragging????).
we just watched "Scrooged" on tv a few days ago.... to me, it is still one of the more inventive and entertaining versions of that story...
 
Nov 26, 2021
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Silent Night - Holy Night:


"2 Silent night, holy night!
Shepherds quake at the sight.
Glories stream from heaven afar,
heav’nly hosts sing, Alleluia!
Christ, the Savior, is born!
Christ, the Savior, is born!"
 

Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
Jun 24, 2020
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we just watched "Scrooged" on tv a few days ago.... to me, it is still one of the more inventive and entertaining versions of that story...
Hmm - I've never seen it (I tend to avoid "Saturday night live" stuff). but maybe this year - My daughter just went to "Violent Night" and enjoyed it. That lies WAY outside my pass-band, though. I noticed over the years that Clint Eastwood movies seem to use well known hymns during the more violent parts of the show. "Poisoning the well" as it were. Much of satan's creativity is pure genius.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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O Holy Night - night of our Savior's Birth:


https://reformationbiblecollege.org/blog/o-holy-night-a-favorite-christmas-hymn

O holy night!
The stars are brightly shining
It is the night of the dear Savior’s birth!
Long lay the world in sin and error pining
Till he appear’d and the soul felt its worth.
A thrill of hope the weary soul rejoices
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn!

Fall on your knees
Oh hear the angel voices
Oh night divine
Oh night when Christ was born
Oh night divine
Oh night divine

Led by the light of Faith serenely beaming
With glowing hearts by His cradle we stand
So led by light of a star sweetly gleaming
Here come the wise men from Orient land
The King of Kings lay thus in lowly manger
In all our trials born to be our friend

Truly He taught us to love one another
His law is love and His gospel is peace
Chains shall He break for the slave is our brother
And in His name all oppression shall cease
Sweet hymns of joy in grateful chorus raise we,
Let all within us praise His holy name


...

I would have to say that “O Holy Night” is one of my favorites. Here are five reasons why:

  1. It focuses on the incarnation. It is “the night of the dear Savior’s birth!” The eternal Son became the incarnate Son, the God-man. It is a “holy night,” a “night divine.” The very day in which God became man is unlike any other day or, for that matter, any other act in human history. As the Nicene Creed puts it, “The Lord Jesus Christ . . . for us and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man.” The Son of God became man. Astonishing!
  2. It shows the deepest human need. The second person of the godhead assumed humanity to deliver us from sin, death, and eternal condemnation. “Long lay the world in sin and error pining.” Our sin—as guilt and enslavement—needed to be dealt with. This happened through the death and resurrection of Christ and our participation in that historical event. Our sin also leads to “error pining.” We don’t speak that way anymore, but “pining” simply means “languishing.” Humanity apart from Christ and in sin languishes in error. We are in need of the gospel—truth that sets us free (John 8:32).
  3. It emphasizes new creation. A “new and glorious morn” has broken into the old, fallen creation. We, like Zechariah, have witnessed “the tender mercy of our God, whereby the sunrise shall visit us from on high to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace” (Luke 1:78–79). And, one day, “all oppression shall cease.”
  4. It describes the benefits of becoming a new creation. At Christ’s appearance, the “soul felt its worth.” A “weary soul” feels “a thrill of hope” and “rejoices.” We feel worthy because of who we are in Christ, and we feel joy over what He has done on our behalf.
  5. Its theology leads to doxological ethics. “Fall on your knees” is the natural response to this “divine night.” “Let all within us praise His holy name.” Divine presence and action naturally generates human praise. But human praise, or doxology, should also produce an ethical response (hence, doxological ethics). It should lead us to obey the command to love God and neighbor. As the hymn declares, Christ “taught us to love one another, His law is love and His gospel is peace.” Also, notice how God liberates the “slave”—one who is enslaved to sin—by liberating him through the gospel, and then, in turn, that slave is now “our brother” in Christ whom we ought to love. Why? Because we were once slaves to sin before receiving the liberating love of God in Christ.
I pray that God continues to lead us from theology to doxological ethics, even in the midst of singing this great hymn, and that we would be those who love theology, love worship, and love one another.

Dr. David Briones is professor of New Testament at Reformation Bible College."
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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I tend to avoid "Saturday night live" stuff
Yes, I usually do, as well.. The original SNL was so stupidly funny, I sort of enjoyed it, much like "Hee Haw".... but after the first season or two it lost the "funny" part, and was just stupid.
This movie is pretty good, in its own way. The "ghosts" make it pretty entertaining.... Carol Kane is the best of them, IMO...
 
Nov 26, 2021
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One of my all time favorites of the Christmas songs...
Mine too. Here is another, "Angels we have heard on high". The Spirit of this Season, the true Spirit, is miraculous imo. No way it is from the evil one, as some say, because he can never lead souls to confess Christ is Lord. Yet so many do that in the Songs of this Season. If Satan instituted it, then he is the greatest fool in the world - and he is not. Therefore ... etc

Btw, the below video has some 8.7 MN views. 8.7 MN who saw, and at least some of those millions of whom probably sang along that "Christ [is] the Lord, the New Born King" and "come adore[worship Him] on bended knee". Someone was asking how many have been edified by this Season and the Songs/Praise/Worship of it? The Answer: Countless Millions.

"
Angels we have heard on high
Sweetly singing o'er the plains
And the mountains in reply
Echoing their joyous strains
Angels we have heard on high
Sweetly, sweetly through the night
And the mountains in reply
Echoing their brief delight

Gloria, in excelsis Deo [Glory to God in the Highest]
Gloria, in excelsis Deo

Shepherds, why this jubilee?
Why your joyous strains prolong?
What the gladsome tidings be
Which inspire your heavenly song?
Gloria, in excelsis Deo
Gloria, in excelsis Deo
Come to Bethlehem and see
Him whose birth the angels sing,
Come, adore on bended knee,
Christ the Lord, the newborn King.

...
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Please note that many of the anti-Christmas polemics which affirm as a "fact" that Christians borrowed from Mithras or someone else come from well known anti-Christian writers like Christ-mythers. For e.g. Wiki says: "Originator of the Christ myth theory, Charles-François Dupuis, set out to prove the Mithraic origins of Christianity." More on that in a minute.

Here is a fascinating more recent study: "Revisiting the Fathers: An Examination of the Christmas Date in Several Early Patristic Writers Kurt M Simmons, JD: "Editor's note: This article appeared in 98 Questions Liturgiques (2017) 143-180. The article documents occurrence of the Christmas date to sometime between the mid- first to mid- second centuries. Specifically, it demonstrates from heretofore lost or unrecognized excerpts of Julius Africanus (AD 160-240) and a work attributed to Evodius (died circa AD 64-68) that the Christmas date was an integral part of the Protoevangelium of James before it settled into its present form sometime in the latter half of the second century. The article then shows that the above conclusions are supported by a published article by Yale PhD candidate, Thomas C. Schmidt, which shows that Hippolytus (AD 170-236), a younger contemporary of Africanus, also almost certainly subscribed to the December 25th birth of Christ. The article concludes that the Christmas date therefore cannot be accounted for by other leading theories, and instead appears to stem from an early tradition (legend or report) whence it was received in good faith by the fathers of following ages." Taken from: https://www.dec25th.info/Revisiting the Fathers.html

So, a recap:

(1) 2nd century writers - long before the 4th Century. - like Julius Africanus and perhaps even a work attributed to St. Evodius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evodius), a first century Bishop said to be one of the 72 disciples of Christ, state Dec. 25th as a Christian celebration of Christmas. The Protoevangelium of James mentions Zechariah as a High Priest ministering in the Temple on Yom Kippur when John the Baptist was conceived. Yom Kippur is in late Sept., as mentioned earlier, which agrees with a late March Conception of Christ, and a late Dec. Birth.

(2) So what happened in the 4th century exactly, and what is the connection to Mithras? Firstly, you will find all sorts of unhistorical nonsense from anti-Christian atheists on this, for e.g. the claim that Mithras was supposedly born of a virgin. Rubbish! As per the mythology, he was born of a rock! That is refuted here: "Some non-scholarly writers say that the birth of Mithras was a virgin birth, like that of Jesus. No ancient source gives such a birth myth for Mithras. Rather Mithras is always described as born from solid rock.11" https://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?page=Mithras_and_Jesus The link mentions the atheist writers who claim this with references.

To Wikipedia's credit, it correctly mentions that about Mithras: "Mithras was born from a rock. David Ulansey speculates that this was a belief derived from the Perseus myths, which held he was born from a cavern.[18]

And about Dec. 25th? Even that is far from clear. The original sources about Mithras don't mention any such thing. The same Wiki link continues: "Beck (1987)[24] argues that this is unproven. He writes:

"The only evidence for it is the celebration of the birthday of Invictus on that date in [the 4th century/354 A.D.] Calendar of Philocalus. Invictus is of course Sol Invictus, Aurelian's sun god. It does not follow that a different, earlier, and unofficial sun god, Sol Invictus Mithras, was necessarily or even probably, born on that day too."[24]: 299, n. 12 [d] "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism_in_comparison_with_other_belief_systems#25th_of_December

And so, the evidence that Christians borrowed anything, including the 25th of December date, from Mithras is very weak. The fact that Christians celebrated 25th December long before pagans did makes it far more likely that, if any borrowing took place, it was probably in the other direction, namely pagans taking it from Christians because of the rising popularity of Christianity. The link says: "Christian apologists, among them Ronald Nash[16] and Edwin Yamauchi,[17] have suggested a different interpretation of Mithraism's relationship to Christianity. Yamauchi, pointing out that some of the textual evidence for Mithraist doctrine was written after the New Testament was in circulation, makes a logical leap in considering that it is more likely that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity, rather than the other way around"

God Bless.
Thanks.

I managed to find the link for the PDF I was able to create from it.

http://www.rightreason.org/2009/merry-mithras/