If we want to celebrate the birth of Christ, why not pick a new date and new name?

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ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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Thanks.

I managed to find the link for the PDF I was able to create from it.

http://www.rightreason.org/2009/merry-mithras/
The date December 25 is important because it was the day on which the winter solstice was observed in ancient Rome. Whether it was Mithras' or Sol Invictus' birthday is irrelevant really. The winter solstice has been observed by many cultures since antiquity and especially pagan cults who worship the forces of nature. It's the day when the sun is supposedly reborn. Everything else is just a smokescreen to obscure this fact.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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Excellent link, Bill. Thank you so much. The author clearly shows that Christ-mythers, anti-Christians etc either exaggerate or else outright make up some of their alleged "similarities". As it rightly concludes: "What’s incredible about these parallels is that of the six listed, every one of them is either dubious or certainly false. Let’s look at them one at a time."

"These sources are not general history sources designed to inform us about the cult of Mithras. They are articles written specifically for the purpose of arguing that Christianity is derived from a well known myth, as a way of showing that Jesus of Nazareth as depicted by Christians is a mythical figure, thereby discrediting Christianity. In other words, the sources are not dispassionate. In summary, here is what these writers tell us. Mithras, according to the Mithraic myths, was:

  • Born of a virgin
  • Born on the 25th of December
  • Born in a stable with shepherds present
  • Had twelve disciples
  • Was killed and buried in a tomb/cave
  • Rose from the dead three days after his death
If you were an unwary web surfer with no background in ancient mythology, you would be justifiably impressed by these similarities. Perhaps you’d even accept the claim that because of these similarities, it’s clear that Christianity just borrowed the Mithraic myth and added a new face: that of Jesus of Nazareth.

What’s incredible about these parallels is that of the six listed, every one of them is either dubious or certainly false. Let’s look at them one at a time." http://www.rightreason.org/2009/merry-mithras/

And this is what the author says about the 25th December date in particular: "

"This feature of the Mithras mythology requires little comment, for one primary reason: being born on the 25th of December is actually not part of the account of the life of Jesus, so it is frankly irrelevant if it matches the story of Mithras. That being said, out of mere interest it looks doubtful that Mithras was thought to be born on the 25th of December anyway. The 25th of December was the ceremonial birthdate of Sol Invictus, the pagan Emperor Aurelian’s Sun God. This date was not used for Sol Invictus until the late fourth century, when Christianity was already a few centuries old and the Christians had already used that date for Christmas. While the earlier Mithras was a god of light and of the sun, this is no proof that he too was said to be born on the 25th of December. Another source (which I located via Wikipedia), Manfred Claus, said that “”the Mithraic Mysteries had no public ceremonies of its own. The festival of natalis Invicti [Birth of the Unconquerable (Sun)], held on 25 December, was a general festival of the Sun, and by no means specific to the Mysteries of Mithras.” [Clauss, Mithras: Kult und Mysterien (München, 1990), p. 70.]"

Gentle reminder that Evodius, disciple of Christ and 1st Century Bishop, is our earliest source for Christ's date of birth.

The other second and third century sources I post below. In the 4th century, St. Augustine and St. Chrysostom, two highly respected and very learned Church Fathers, state the birth of Christ was on Dec. 25th. If, for e.g. the Bishops had made a prudent decision to celebrate this Christian Feast on 25th to supplant on a pagan feast, then one of these 2 Bishops - Augustine or Chrysostom, one in the East, one in the West - would have mentioned it. But they mention no such thing.

"The Baptist being born in late June, as shown in the Second Point, Christ Our Lord certainly would have been born around late December. The witness of Tradition, of very early historical Tradition, is clear on this point.

Bp. Theophilus (115–181 A.D.) stated: “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.”

Saint Hippolytus (170–240 A.D.) wrote: “The First Advent of our Lord in the flesh occurred when He was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, a Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, which is five thousand and five hundred years from Adam.”

St. Augustine finally confirms: “But he was born, according to Tradition, upon December the 25th.” https://onepeterfive.com/dates-years-birth-death-christ/

Will find the citation of St. John Chrysostom of Constantinople next. I believe he says there was still a record preserved of the Roman Census in his time, and that that census date backs up the Christmas date.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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Yup, here it is, along with an editor's note, on Early Church Texts:

"I have three convincing arguments to share with you through which we will know for sure that this is the time at which our Lord Jesus Christ, God the Word, was born. Of the three the first is that the news about the feast was swiftly circulated everywhere; it increased in prominence and the feast flourished. Gamaliel said of the proclamation of the Gospel – if it is from men and women it will come to an end, but if it is from God you will not be able to bring it to an end lest you are found to be fighting against God. I would confidently say of this day that, since God the Word is of God, far from it coming to an end, it is increasing in prominence each year and becoming better and better known. Within a few years the preaching of the Gospel had taken hold of the entire world even though it was shared in each place by ordinary people of little education like tentmakers and fishermen. The modest circumstances of its servants did it no harm, but the power of the message won over everything, brought to nothing whatever got in the way and demonstrated a strength of its own.

2. On the subscription version of the website there is also a translation of section 2 in which Chrysostom states that details of the census mentioned in chapter 2 of Luke's gospel were stored publicly in Rome. There is also a link (active in December 2015) to a complete English translation of this homily." From: https://earlychurchtexts.com/public...n_diem_natalem_domini_nostri_jesu_christi.htm

And here is more from the Greek Reporter site: "St. John Chrysostom traces Biblical events to arrive at December birthdate for Christ
In fact, he says, “the feast of Christmas was first celebrated at the beginning of the fourth century, first in Rome (in 336 AD) and subsequently in the Eastern parts of the Empire by the end of the fourth century, where we find a sermon by St. John Chrysostom explaining why celebrating Christmas in December and especially on December 25 is appropriate and has historical proof in the events of the New Testament.”

St. Chrysostom, preaching at the end of the fourth century in Antioch only ten years after the feast of Christmas was established in the East, offers a contemporary account of the reasoning behind the choice of December 25 as the day for celebrating the birth of Christ.

Chrysostom notes that the time of the Census as mentioned in Luke 2:1-7 is crucial here. Papageorgiou states to Greek Reporter that “this was the first Census, which happened when Quirinius was governor of Syria. (Chrysostom) points out that whoever wants to know the exact time of the Census can freely search the ancient codices, which are kept in the public libraries of Rome. Chrysostom was a trained lawyer of the time with personal knowledge of government records.”

https://greekreporter.com/2021/12/10/christmas-jesus-born/

Wiki on this early Christian speaker/writer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Chrysostom
 

JTB

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Aug 31, 2021
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But how does one ignore the Catholic and pagan elements when the very date and name reflect them?
It's actually quite easy for those of us who no longer drink milk, and know meat sacrificed to idols holds no power over us.
 
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persistent

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Mine too. Here is another, "Angels we have heard on high". The Spirit of this Season, the true Spirit, is miraculous imo. No way it is from the evil one, as some say, because he can never lead souls to confess Christ is Lord. Yet so many do that in the Songs of this Season. If Satan instituted it, then he is the greatest fool in the world - and he is not. Therefore ... etc

Btw, the below video has some 8.7 MN views. 8.7 MN who saw, and at least some of those millions of whom probably sang along that "Christ [is] the Lord, the New Born King" and "come adore[worship Him] on bended knee". Someone was asking how many have been edified by this Season and the Songs/Praise/Worship of it? The Answer: Countless Millions.
Good point !!!!! At least it seems to make good sense. The only thing is this>>>>>>>2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.......So many deceptive 'entities'. Some say many will be deceived by an antichrist also.
 

ResidentAlien

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It's actually quite easy for those of us who no longer drink milk, and know meat sacrificed to idols holds no power over us.
It's not all about you. You need to trade in your "meat" and go back to milk for awhile.
 

Eli1

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Apr 5, 2022
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Good point !!!!! At least it seems to make good sense. The only thing is this>>>>>>>2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.......So many deceptive 'entities'. Some say many will be deceived by an antichrist also.
What do you make of this verse in relation to this topic?
 
Nov 26, 2021
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Well, the Angel of light reference is actually speaking about something Satan did to Adam and Eve, according to an old history (not in the Bible, though) of their life. Reference: "12 No sooner had Adam said this, than an angel from God appeared to him in the cave, who said to him, "O Adam, fear not. This is Satan and his hosts; he wishes to deceive you as he deceived you at first. For the first time, he was hidden in the serpent; but this time he is come to you in the likeness of an angel of light; in order that, when you worshipped him, he might enslave you, in the very presence of God."

13 Then the angel went from Adam and seized Satan at the opening of the cave, and stripped him of the pretense he had assumed, and brought him in his own hideous form to Adam and Eve; who were afraid of him when they saw him.

14 And the angel said to Adam, "This hideous form has been his ever since God made him fall from heaven. He could not have come near you in it; he therefore transformed himself into an angel of light." https://www.gutenberg.org/files/398/398-h/398-h.htm#chap27 Satan did this to try and cheat Adam and Eve, as if they'd seen him as he is, they'd have run to God.

But in the NT, the Bible also says no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit: "Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor 12:3). And so, judge the Season by its fruits, its actual fruits i.e. where so many believe and confess or re-confess and are edified and grow in Christ by acknowledging or renewing their surrender to Jesus Christ as Lord.

I think some Christians may be over-reacting to the commercializing of the season. If they see wal-mart etc or some secular enterprise pretend this is just a secular "holiday season", then they may think there is no connection to anything religious or holy. But that wasn't the way Christmas was celebrated for so many centuries and over a millenia until more recent times. We must oppose the commercialization of the season. Jesus is the Reason for the Season and it's all about Him and His Birth for our Salvation.

"St Augustine of Canterbury was the person who probably started the widespread celebration of Christmas in large parts of England by introducing Christianity to the regions run by the Anglo-Saxons in the 6th century (other Celtic parts of Britain were already Christian but there aren't many documents about if or how they celebrated the birth of Jesus). St Augustine of Canterbury was sent by Pope Gregory the Great in Rome and that church used the Roman Calendar, so western countries celebrate Christmas on the 25th December. Then people from Britain and Western Europe took Christmas on the 25th December all over the world!" https://www.whychristmas.com/customs/25th

God Bless
 
P

persistent

Guest
The Bible never condemns the celebration of Christmas.
Xavier, the Bible was written before "Christmas' was ever observed. The 'Festival of Lights' aka 'Hannukah' morphed into Christmas. Not sure, seems Jesus did go to the Temple during the feast. How does this reflect or impact the celebrating the 'same' day as the birth of Jesus. This list from wiki>>>>what do you make of it?>>>>>>

Abrahamic religions[edit]

Also from wiki>>>>Hannukah.......
2022 date Sunset, 18 December –
nightfall, 26 December[1]
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
It's actually quite easy for those of us who no longer drink milk, and know meat sacrificed to idols holds no power over us.

Days of the week, pagan, months of the year, pagan, a lot of clothes you wear, pagan names, cars you drive, pagan, names, sports you watch pagan, wedding ring pagan. And lots more. Looks like we're all hypocrites.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
I never did but not having kids to watch a children's movie has never stopped me from watching a movie.

You mentioned a "Meh" emoji and that figures big into the story. I guess I just knew about it because of the boys. It was entertaining.
 

Eli1

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Days of the week, pagan, months of the year, pagan, a lot of clothes you wear, pagan names, cars you drive, pagan, names, sports you watch pagan, wedding ring pagan. And lots more. Looks like we're all hypocrites.
Become a monk !

Nope !
I don’t wanna “work” for the Catholic Church. :D
 

Eli1

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Ah but you could make beer and drink it.
What happens with monks, stays with monks.
Also we don’t condemn monks who make stuff. There are levels here too about monk acceptance Levels. :cool:
 

Cameron143

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You mentioned a "Meh" emoji and that figures big into the story. I guess I just knew about it because of the boys. It was entertaining.
After your 2 thumbs up review my interest is definitely piqued.
 

Cameron143

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What happens with monks, stays with monks.
Also we don’t condemn monks who make stuff. There are levels here too about monk acceptance Levels. :cool:
A good policy that what happens in the monastery, stays in monastery.