Who Justifieth the Ungodly
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Again Rom 1:18ff can only apply to men and women who Christ did not die for, only they are under Gods wrath. God is reconciled to all men and women who Christ died for Rom 5:10
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Hi notmyown ... yes, I have read the verse in other translations.
I have also read the verse in various texts.
In all the texts, the order of the words is the same (i.e. hear then believe then sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise).
The sealing of the Holy Spirit occurs the moment a person is born again.
The insistence by brightfame52 that a person is regenerated (which is to be born again) in order to hear does not align with what is written in Scripture.
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I have also read the verse in various texts.
In all the texts, the order of the words is the same (i.e. hear then believe then sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise).
The sealing of the Holy Spirit occurs the moment a person is born again.
The insistence by brightfame52 that a person is regenerated (which is to be born again) in order to hear does not align with what is written in Scripture.
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you have provided no proof for your claim as you desperately cling to your erroneous dogma.
I will hold to Scripture.
more proof I was correct.
having said that ... what is "reasonably implied" is that I have never stated what you claim but that will not stop you from endlessly claiming I said that.
Again reasonably implied
you again prove I was correct in my statement that you will endlessly continue to claim I did something I never did ...
I will hold to Scripture.
brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
more proof I was correct.having said that ... what is "reasonably implied" is that I have never stated what you claim but that will not stop you from endlessly claiming I said that.
The born again ones were by nature the children of wrath, even as those who reject God:
Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
The only reason the born again ones are no longer children of wrath is because they did not suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) when someone shared the gospel with them.
It is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
If you don't believe, then you are still by nature [a child] of wrath, even as others (Eph 2:3).
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Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
The only reason the born again ones are no longer children of wrath is because they did not suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) when someone shared the gospel with them.
It is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
If you don't believe, then you are still by nature [a child] of wrath, even as others (Eph 2:3).
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renewed
This is true, by nature, prior to being born again, the elect of God are just as worthy of wrath as the reprobated lost. So God never chose the elect because they were anyway better than the non elect, for all without exception are worthy of Gods wrath. However, notice it never said they were under Gods wrath, because the elect are never under Gods wrath, they have always been accepted in Christ the beloved according to having been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4,6
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved
This is true, by nature, prior to being born again, the elect of God are just as worthy of wrath as the reprobated lost. So God never chose the elect because they were anyway better than the non elect, for all without exception are worthy of Gods wrath. However, notice it never said they were under Gods wrath, because the elect are never under Gods wrath, they have always been accepted in Christ the beloved according to having been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4,6
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved
thank you!
i wondered because the word "after" does not appear in Greek. i agree with you, we are sealed the moment we are born again.
what do you think about Christ's words to Nicodemus that unless one is born again one is unable to perceive or discern the kingdom of God?
i appreciate you being willing to talk to me. ♥
i wondered because the word "after" does not appear in Greek. i agree with you, we are sealed the moment we are born again.
what do you think about Christ's words to Nicodemus that unless one is born again one is unable to perceive or discern the kingdom of God?
i appreciate you being willing to talk to me. ♥
notmyown
Scripture doesn't say that, the sealing follows the believing Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Now the hearing is prior to believing, and the hearing signifies having been born again !
Scripture doesn't say that, the sealing follows the believing Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Now the hearing is prior to believing, and the hearing signifies having been born again !
what is "ignorance" is denial of Scripture.When Ephesians 2:2-3 tells us that prior to being born again, the born again ones all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others, I believe God.
You have to make up some sort of subset of humanity ... your so-called "elect" ... and make wild claims that the "elect" are "born into the world justified before God".
Believe what is written in Ephesians 2:2-3. Those who claim to be "elect", if they are born again, they all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others ... and if one is not born again, they are still by nature the children of wrath.
Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
yes ... in agreement.
not in agreement here.
According to Romans 1:18, the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
God makes no distinction in stating that His wrath is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. You make the distinction where there is none.
How many times did you hear the gospel before you finally believed it? Each time you heard the gospel and did not believe, you suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.
And then, one day you heard the gospel ... believed the gospel ... and because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), you were born again and sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory (Eph 1:13-14).
Even the born again one is chastened by God. The born again one is no longer under God's wrath ... but God chastens His children (Heb 12:3-11).
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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Are you referring to John 3:3?
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Please read further in the record. Jesus told Nicodemus:
John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
The word "receive" is translated from the Greek word lambanō which means:
The record in John 3 is not the first time Nicodemus had heard Jesus. Nicodemus was a pharisee. Jesus taught in the presence of the pharisees, so Nicodemus had heard what He taught and also had seen miracles (vs 2). Note that Nicodemus came to Jesus by night ... in secret.
I'm not sure whether Nicodemus believed during the conversation in John 3, but Nicodemus did believe at some point and he came with Joseph of Arimathaea to anoint the body of Jesus after His crucifixion (John 19:39).
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John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Please read further in the record. Jesus told Nicodemus:
John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
The word "receive" is translated from the Greek word lambanō which means:
"actively lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983/lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.
HELPS Word-studies
The record in John 3 is not the first time Nicodemus had heard Jesus. Nicodemus was a pharisee. Jesus taught in the presence of the pharisees, so Nicodemus had heard what He taught and also had seen miracles (vs 2). Note that Nicodemus came to Jesus by night ... in secret.
I'm not sure whether Nicodemus believed during the conversation in John 3, but Nicodemus did believe at some point and he came with Joseph of Arimathaea to anoint the body of Jesus after His crucifixion (John 19:39).
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yes, i ask your pardon, it's when we exercise faith. i see regeneration and the exercise of faith as kind of like flipping a light switch. there's light so quickly after it seems to be simultaneous.
so with God causing us to be born again. the exercise of faith comes hard on the heels of having one's eyes and ears opened to see the beauty and glory of the Lord Jesus. does that make sense?
so with God causing us to be born again. the exercise of faith comes hard on the heels of having one's eyes and ears opened to see the beauty and glory of the Lord Jesus. does that make sense?
renewed
That verse is basically the same as 1 Cor 2:14 that the unregenerate, yet not born again, cannot know the things of God, His Kingdom which is Spiritual BTW, and His Gospel of the Kingdom, which is Spiritual, so he cannot understand them, spiritually. Why ? Because they must be spiritually discerned. The Truh of the matter is none can understand God and the ways of God [Rom 3:11] unless they have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, given Spiritual Life, 1 Cor 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
That verse is basically the same as 1 Cor 2:14 that the unregenerate, yet not born again, cannot know the things of God, His Kingdom which is Spiritual BTW, and His Gospel of the Kingdom, which is Spiritual, so he cannot understand them, spiritually. Why ? Because they must be spiritually discerned. The Truh of the matter is none can understand God and the ways of God [Rom 3:11] unless they have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, given Spiritual Life, 1 Cor 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
yes, i ask your pardon, it's when we exercise faith. i see regeneration and the exercise of faith as kind of like flipping a light switch. there's light so quickly after it seems to be simultaneous.
so with God causing us to be born again. the exercise of faith comes hard on the heels of having one's eyes and ears opened to see the beauty and glory of the Lord Jesus. does that make sense?
so with God causing us to be born again. the exercise of faith comes hard on the heels of having one's eyes and ears opened to see the beauty and glory of the Lord Jesus. does that make sense?
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