Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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Not according to 1 Tim 2:4 and 2 Pet 3:9.
1 Timothy 2:4, KJV: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"
2 Pet 3:9b "... He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
Nor according to 1 Jn 2:2, which says He died for the sins of the whole world, not only for us Christians.
1 Jn 2:2 "He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins--and not only our sins but the sins of all the world."
Limited Atonement makes God Himself and not man responsible for the damnation of some. That is offensive to God.
Take the case of Judas. Did Jesus refuse to save him? No, Jesus washed his feet, gave him communion just like the rest of the Apostles. It was Judas who refused Jesus' offers of Love and Salvation and to believe in His Sacrifice and repent.
1 Timothy 2:4, KJV: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"
2 Pet 3:9b "... He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
Nor according to 1 Jn 2:2, which says He died for the sins of the whole world, not only for us Christians.
1 Jn 2:2 "He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins--and not only our sins but the sins of all the world."
Limited Atonement makes God Himself and not man responsible for the damnation of some. That is offensive to God.
Take the case of Judas. Did Jesus refuse to save him? No, Jesus washed his feet, gave him communion just like the rest of the Apostles. It was Judas who refused Jesus' offers of Love and Salvation and to believe in His Sacrifice and repent.
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You are FLATLY CONTRADICTING the words of God and Christ. Which means that you are an enemy of the true Gospel.
How do people have the gall and audacity to contradict God today? Because He does not bring His fiery judgments to bear immediately, as He did with Israel in the wilderness. Indeed He was ready to wipe out all the Israelites, had Moses not interceded on their behalf.
But Jesus warned everyone that they would be judged for EVERY WORD which they uttered (or wrote): But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Mt 12:36,37)
How do people have the gall and audacity to contradict God today? Because He does not bring His fiery judgments to bear immediately, as He did with Israel in the wilderness. Indeed He was ready to wipe out all the Israelites, had Moses not interceded on their behalf.
But Jesus warned everyone that they would be judged for EVERY WORD which they uttered (or wrote): But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Mt 12:36,37)
That would be contradictory. God foreknows and foresees all things, and there are in fact a few things which He predetermined (e.g. the crucifixion of Christ), but Judas Iscariot for example made his own choices (even though Christ knew what those choices would be).
Something else which He has predetermined is the perfection and glorification of the saints (Rom 8:29,30; 1 John 3:1-3). That is what divine election is all about. That all the children of God will be conformed to the likeness His Son (who is perfect).
Something else which He has predetermined is the perfection and glorification of the saints (Rom 8:29,30; 1 John 3:1-3). That is what divine election is all about. That all the children of God will be conformed to the likeness His Son (who is perfect).
However you may word it, what God doesn't cause directly He does allow. I don't stumble over semantics. God is both sovereign and allows mankind to make choices. Neither do I stumble at the idea that the infinite mind of God can even take all my mistakes and work them to my benefit, all the while working His eternal purposes.
If He can do so in a positive manner, can He not do so in a negative way?
If He can do so in a positive manner, can He not do so in a negative way?
You don't understand Calvinism. I'm not a Calvinist but people who use the term use it as a pejorative and misrepresent its claims.
One can believe God answers prayers and they do affect the heart of God and also believe He answers according to His will.
Your idea of God is too small. That's why you believe it can only be one or the other and not both.
One can believe God answers prayers and they do affect the heart of God and also believe He answers according to His will.
Your idea of God is too small. That's why you believe it can only be one or the other and not both.