HEROD'S SLAUGHTER OF THE INNOCENTS

arthurfleminger · Dec 28, 2022

The birth of Jesus starts in motion the beginning of the New Covenant and the end of the Old Covenant.

With the birth of Jesus, King Herod, the king of God's Chosen People of the Old Covenant, turns on God and sends out his soldiers to find and kill Jesus. Herod slaughtered many innocents, a shotgun effect, in hopes that he'd kill the New King. On the opposite side of the spectrum, the Gentile Magi Kings come to worship Jesus.

The Jewish establishment will reject the very Cornerstone and about 33 years later the Jewish religious leaders will plot and have Jesus crucified. And Paul will lead the Gentiles to Jesus.

Jesus fortold that Jerusalem would be destroyed because they failed to recognize His coming. And in the year 70AD, the city of Jerusalem with it's inhabitants, it's Temple, and the religious practices/sacrifices of the Old Testament came to an end.

Jesus birth, life, and death clearly marked the transition from the Old Covenant/Testemant to the New Covenant/Testemant.

arthurfleminger · Dec 28, 2022

Unfortunately, today's secularists, governments, and many Christians aren't much different when looking at the tens of millions of innocent unborns have been slaughtered for convenience sake.

Simona1988 · Dec 28, 2022

As I was doing a research for my diploma, I accidentally fell on a quotation by Caesar Augustus (aka Octavian, the first Roman emperor) in the book Saturnalia written by Macrobius. In book two, Macrobius records some of the witty sayings of Octavian and there reports:

"On hearing that the son of Herod, king of the Jews, had been slain when Herod ordered that all boys in Syria under the age of two be killed, Augustus said, 'It's better to be Herod's pig than his son.'"

Pilgrimshope · Dec 28, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

amen when Jesus was baptized he began preaching the new covenant d when he died he had shed the blood of the covenant word he had spoken

awhile Jesus was still alive before he died the old covenant still was in effect because he hadn’t shed the blood of remission when he did it remitted the words of Moses law and set Jesus words in place forever

just as Moses had done this pattern for the Old Testament foret moses read the whole book of the law to them and they said “ we agree we will obey it all “ th en Moses she’s the blood of the covenant according to all the words they had agreed to

“And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:7-8‬ ‭

Jesus also preached the new covenant and then after he preached it to the people he shed his own blood of remission according to his words of the covenant

Until Jesus died and rose nothing changed when he died everything he said became the everlasting word of God to mankind for thier salvation and the old has been remitted by his blood

Two covenant words and bloodshed that corresponds to each word and mediator

arthurfleminger · Dec 28, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

In the 'Parable of the Vineyard Tenants' (Mark12), Jesus clearly tells the Jewish people's religious leaders that they will lose their place in God's Kingdom and be replaced:

"He had one other to send, a beloved son. He sent him to them last of all, thinking, ‘They will respect my son.’
But those tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’

So they seized him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard. What [then] will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come, put the tenants to death, and give the vineyard to others.

Have you not read this scripture passage: ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;

by the Lord has this been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes’?” They were seeking to arrest him, but they feared the crowd, for they realized that he had addressed the parable to them. So they left him and went away.

Webers.Home · Dec 28, 2022

.
• Matt 2:7-8 . .Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them
the exact time the star had appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem and said,
"Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report
to me, so that I too may go and worship him.

Well; the visitors might've returned had not God intervened.

• Matt 2:11-12 . . And having been warned in a dream not to go back to
Herod, they returned to their country by another route.

That was a safety measure to prevent Herod from knowing where to find the
lad because rulers in that day were typically Machiavellian, tyrannical, and
despotic-- they didn't just crush potential threats to their power; they utterly
annihilated it; and as subsequent events demonstrate, ol' Herod had neither
conscience nor concern for child welfare.

* Saddam Hussein's first order of business upon taking control of Iraq was
to order the executions of some of his closest supporters because they
weren't totally onboard with his ideals. Kim Jong-Un is suspected of ordering
the murder of his uncle for similar reasons.

• Matt 2:16a . .Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise
men, was exceeding wroth

There's really nothing in the story to even remotely suggest that the wise
men made a fool out of Herod and/or jeered him. They simply failed to
comply with his wishes; which in his mind wasn't merely refusal of his
request, but a failure to take him seriously.

• Matt 2:16b . . He sent forth, and slew all the children that were in
Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under,
according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

The Greek word for "coasts" is a mite ambiguous. It technically indicates
borders, but can also indicate regions and/or environs and surrounding
areas.

That verse is commonly appropriated to calculate Jesus' age relative to when
the wise men visited him and his mother. But the verse merely indicates the
passage of time since Herod interviewed the men; which is quite useless for
calculating Jesus' age seeing as how he was already born before the men
even left their country-- how long before they left their country, nobody
knows for sure.

• Matt 2:17-18 . .Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was
fulfilled: "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel
weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no
more." (Jer 31:15)

Ramah was roughly six miles north of Jerusalem, while Bethlehem is roughly
the same distance south in the opposite direction.

Ramah was settled by the people of Rachel's biological son Benjamin, so that
any weeping done by the mothers in that area would be reckoned, by
heritage, to be Rachel's weeping.

What this suggests to me is that the slaughter of the innocents extended
beyond the community of Bethlehem. Were we to set a draftsman's compass
to a radius equal to the distance between Bethlehem and Ramah, and scribe
a circle with Bethlehem at the center, it would yield a pretty good idea of the
area covered by Herod's death squads.

But Herod's efforts were futile. Jesus wasn't even in the country; Joseph had
moved the child and his mother down into Egypt before all the killing began
(Matt 2:13) and in time, Herod died and his danger to Jesus' survival died
with him. (Matt 2:19-23)
_

Webers.Home · Dec 28, 2022

.
The verse below is deliberately misquoted. Watch for the revision.

• Matt 2:2 . . Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have
followed his star from the east

No, they didn't follow Jesus' star from the east; rather, they saw it in the
east.

Jerusalem was a logical destination seeing as how it was Israel's capital city.
Personally I think the wise men fully expected to find the new king quartered
right there in Jerusalem rather than elsewhere; so their inquiry "where is he"
was probably not meant for asking directions to another town.

• Matt 2:9 . . After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the
star they had seen in the east went ahead of them.

They likely thought they had seen the last of that star back home, so it was
very reassuring to see it again; and this time as a guiding light rather than a
sign.

• Matt 2:10 . . When they saw the star, they were overjoyed.

NOTE: As the earth turns, stars appear to move across the sky from the east
towards the west. Here is a star that moved south, and also came to a stop;
which should alert planetariums that it wasn't an astronomical object.

• Matt 2:9 . . It stopped over the place where the child was.

Nobody had precision astronomical instruments back then; so it would've
been a challenge finding the exact house over which the object hovered. Try
it sometime. Find a dark-sky location and, using only your eyes, see if you
can pick out the star that is precisely over your head.

Normal stars are so far out in space that it is nigh unto impossible to tell the
exact spot on earth where one of them is at any given moment without
special instruments; so I think we can be reasonably confident that this star
was low enough that there was no mistaking the exact house where young
Jesus was lodged. In other words; this star wasn't a star, rather, it was a
God-given apparition.

Now this is curious. The shepherds were given no guide. They had to
conduct a house to house search for baby Jesus; and their target was
different too. The shepherds went looking for a savior whereas the wise men
were seeking a sovereign. Plus the wise men were educated, whereas the
shepherds likely weren't; and the wise men were wealthy and privileged
whereas shepherds were just cow pokes; so to speak.

FAQ: How did the wise men know their star was associated with the Jews?

REPLY: Well; Matt 2:12 strongly suggests to me that their entire odyssey
was micro-managed by God from start to finish so that when the men
spotted the star back home in the east, they were at the same time
informed by God as to its purpose and urged to pack up and head for the
land of Israel; specifically the city of Jerusalem because that's always been a
sort of Washington DC for David's dynasty.

I think the wise men fully expected to find the young king there because
they didn't inquire as to where he'd be born, rather: where is he that "is
born" because they were sure in their own minds that he was already out
and about even before they left home.
_

Nehemiah6 · Dec 28, 2022

Webers.Home said:

You have failed to see the logic since the wise men in fact FOLLOWED THE STAR to Bethlehem after seeing it rise in the east. That extraordinary star may have risen in the East, but they travelled West, since both Persia and Arabia are east of Jerusalem. Which means that they followed the star as it led them directly to the place where Christ was to be found.

Getting back to Herod's slaughter of the innocents. While that was purely evil, it was no more evil than the millions of abortions in North America (which are also a slaughter of the innocents). So in fact the abortionists will be judged more severely than Herod.

arthurfleminger · Dec 28, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

Pilgrimshope, I agree with much of what you say. But I don't agree with your statement, " Jesus was still alive before he died the old covenant still was in effect because he hadn’t shed the blood of remission."

Personally I believe that Jesus formally initiated His 'New Covenant' at the 'Last Supper'., when He took the cup of wine and blessed it, He proclaimed the New Covenant into existance, “This cup is the New Covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you”

At that very point, at the Last Supper, Jesus' New Covenant was established, before His actual crucifixion and death.

Kavik · Dec 28, 2022

Simona1988 said:

This quote is somewhat misleading - it has nothing to do with the Slaughter of the Innocents, but refers solely to Herod's sons. In view of these executions, Augustus reportedly quipped that, “It is better to be Herod’s pig than son” (Macrobius, Saturnalia, 2:4:11)—the joke being that, since Herod was a Jew, he didn’t eat pork and his pig would be safe.

Simona1988 · Dec 28, 2022

Kavik said:

It has to do with the slaughter of the innocents... it is a commentary about it, and it's from a book, other than the Bible.

The purpose of my post was to highlight the fact that this biblical account of Herod ordering the slaughter of the children under the age of two (an account which is deemed implausible by many) is confirmed by the emperor Octavian (who is quoted by Macrobius).

Kavik · Dec 29, 2022

Simona1988 said:

Can you give an exact source? I believe Augustus' quote is in reference to Herod having his sons executed; not the Holy Innocents.

Pilgrimshope · Dec 29, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

brother it comes from this scripture

“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then They give the example
Of the old covenant pattern

“Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law,

he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, saying,

This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you see why I said that based just on those verses ? It’s just the layout of a covenant you speak e word first from Gid then you shed the blood hay dedicates the covenant word .

Jesus preached the gospel first and then he shed his blood to dedicate the words of the new testemwnt he had spoken just like Moses pattern

until Jesus died the blood of Moses covenant remained and so Moses words remained that’s why Jesus tells them this before he died and rose because Moses law was still in effect before he shed his blood

“Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:1-3‬ ‭

moses seat was still the authority until Jesus died and shed the blood of the covenant he spoke Hebrews explains it well

it’s like a Will and testament you make a Will while your alive but the words you have written don’t apply until after you have died that’s when the words of your Will go into effect and can’t be changed anymore once the testator dies his words become irrevocable and must be fuflilled as written in his Will

it was the same with Moses law until Moses did this it wasn’t in effect

“And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The things Moses did are patterns so we can understand the New Testament better Jesus followed that pattern he foret presched the gospel and then after he shed the blood of his covenant for the people according to his words

I hope that clarifies for you why I said that

arthurfleminger · Dec 29, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

brother it comes from this scripture

“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then They give the example
Of the old covenant pattern

“Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law,

he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, saying,

This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you see why I said that based just on those verses ? It’s just the layout of a covenant you speak e word first from Gid then you shed the blood hay dedicates the covenant word .

Jesus preached the gospel first and then he shed his blood to dedicate the words of the new testemwnt he had spoken just like Moses pattern

until Jesus died the blood of Moses covenant remained and so Moses words remained that’s why Jesus tells them this before he died and rose because Moses law was still in effect before he shed his blood

“Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:1-3‬ ‭

moses seat was still the authority until Jesus died and shed the blood of the covenant he spoke Hebrews explains it well

it’s like a Will and testament you make a Will while your alive but the words you have written don’t apply until after you have died that’s when the words of your Will go into effect and can’t be changed anymore once the testator dies his words become irrevocable and must be fuflilled as written in his Will

it was the same with Moses law until Moses did this it wasn’t in effect

“And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The things Moses did are patterns so we can understand the New Testament better Jesus followed that pattern he foret presched the gospel and then after he shed the blood of his covenant for the people according to his words

I hope that clarifies for you why I said that

Pilgrimshope, I truly believe that our opinions coincide greatly on the issues presented in this thread. Our only disagreement is whether or not Jesus was alive at the institution of the New Covenant. A Covenant from God is a promise between Him and His people. And Jesus clearly establishes His New Covenant with his followers/disciples/apostles/people at the Last Supper. The New Covenant came into effect when Jesus pronounced it, at the Last Supper. Anyway, I believe our disagreement is minor in nature.

Pilgrimshope · Dec 29, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

a yeah brother I’ll Leave your thread

“Our only disagreement is whether or not Jesus was alive at the institution of the New Covenant. A Covenant from God is a promise between Him and His people.”

“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Im not sure theres anything left to disagree about really but I’ll leave your thread alone God bless

pottersclay · Dec 29, 2022

Where in scripture does it say the temple was destroyed for rejecting Jesus?

arthurfleminger · Dec 29, 2022

pottersclay said:

One of the most stunning proofs for the authenticity of the Bible is found in our discovery of history. Jesus told His disciples that Jerusalem and the Temple would be surrounded by an army and destroyed. Just 38 years after He spoke these words, Titus accomplished the fulfillment of Jesus’ words precisely.

Luke 19:43-44 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.

Simona1988 · Dec 30, 2022

Kavik said:

I already gave the source and the quotation in my post nr. 3. Herod ordered the execution of all boys under the age of two and NOT EVEN HIS OWN SON was spared from the massacre.
I will ... re-write it...and I will put in bold the reference to the Holy Innocents.

In the book Saturnalia, written by roman writer Macrobius, I read the following (I read it in Romanian, of course, but I give the English quotation found on the internet, ):

"On hearing that the son of Herod, king of the Jews, had been slain when Herod ordered that all boys in Syria under the age of two be killed, Augustus said, 'It's better to be Herod's pig than his son.'"

Edit: you already gave the exact source in your post nr 10: Macrobius, Saturnalia, 2:4:11

Nils · Dec 30, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

Murder is murder and that also applies to the murder of lives that have not yet been born.

Abortion can be compared to the 10% of an iceberg that is above the surface of the water, hidden is the 90%, it is the 90% that is the reason for what becomes a desperate emergency solution and misfortune for many people - abortion.
The 90% is no excuse for abortion.
The solution to this unfortunate problem is to do something about the cause of the problem, which seems to be the 90% that no one can or is willing to do anything about.

Pilgrimshope · Dec 30, 2022

pottersclay said:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not !

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:37-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I needed to leave that part so we understood who this is about

“Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, ( israel ) and went into a far country:

and when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, ( the early prophets ) that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

Again, he sent other servants more than the first: ( the latter prophets ) and they did unto them likewise.

But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. ( the long promised messiah Jesus )

But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, ( they killed the prophets and crucified him ) and slew him.

When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes?

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:33-43‬ ‭

This is more of the same concept

“The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: ( the early prophets ) and they would not come.( Israel’s rejection of them )

Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. ( the latter prophets )

But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. ( Israel’s killing ofnthe prophets God sent to call then to repentance )

But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. ( Israel rejected the gospel and it was sent to all nations as was written Jerusalem was destroyed in 67-70 ad including the temple )

Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:2-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the man made temple was only a pattern until Christ the true temple of the Holy Ghost came forth

“the Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The man made temple was never how one came into gods presence it was a pattern of Jesus

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.”
‭‭John‬ ‭2:19-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is the temple why would people who have the Holy Spirit living inside them need to Goni to a building where Gods spirit meets them ? It was only a pattern

“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, ( there’s a Jerusalem in heaven ) prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

…And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:2, 22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The temple serves a purpose it was where Gods spirit met with the priests and gave guidance to Moses and the people through the angel. We have become Gods temple through Christ we are his building and habitation

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a that’s what the temple was place for Gods spirit to dwell in the most holy place it’s center room that’s only a figure for Gods spirit living in our center room our heart our most holy place is where Gods spirit dwells and communes with us the temple has become irrelevant being a pattern beforehand of the true things

“For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The temple made by man was a pattern of Gods true temple it fell because the old covenant was fulfilled and it has no more use

HEROD'S SLAUGHTER OF THE INNOCENTS

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Active member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

pottersclay

Guest

Well-known member

Active member

New member

Well-known member