Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

[Evmur]

Just one piece of the pie. Another piece is the dysfunctionality of post-trib-ism.

1.) We go up. (Along with the bodies of the dead in Christ.)
2.) The Mariage is in Heaven.
3.) We come down with Him. (Not a rapture.)

All these things are Biblical and do not work with post-trib-ism. There is no way to go up in post-trib-ism. The Bible says that God has prepared a place for the Bride in Heaven. (John 14.)

John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

You say they are biblical.

Biblical is "after the tribulation of those days .... He will gather His elect ...." Matt. 24

Biblical is "the day of our gathering to meet the Lord in the air will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed. the son of perdition" 2. Thess. 2.

Rebellion? what rebellion? rebellion against YOU, God yes but YOU since you believe in God. He's coming after you dear brother and this will cause you GREAT TRIBULATION.

Biblical is "through great tribulation must we enter the kingdom of God"

But we will escape God's wrath, we are agreed upon this.

 

[presidente]

the Lord also told him Trump would win the election ....

Quote or link the video where he said that. (Re: the Indian Sadhu with a beard in the orang outfit whose name begins with S.)

I checked some of out this man's video os a few times over the years. He tals about visits to heaven, working on some kind of heavenly council, visions of Jesus, many sensational things..

I heard a clip of his about the past election before it happened and he said if Trump did not win things would go badly for America...something along those lines. I remember listening to see if he predicted a Trump win. He might have predicted Trump would win before the election with Hillary Clinton.

In this video He tells the audience that Jesus spoke to him and corrected his pretrib rapture theology.

I wonder why someone would need to have a vision of Jesus Christ to realize the book of Revelation does not mention a pretribulational rapture.

 

[presidente]

It is not my eschatology. And we can abolish that word altogether. It is Bible prophecy, and that comes from God. Take it or leave it.

Show us where the Bible teaches the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

If you assume a pretrib rapture takes place and say this happens before the rapture and this happens after...why shouldn't we consider it to be __your eschatology__?

There are passages that tell us what happens at the coming of the Lord. You _assume_ the coming of the Lord passages refer to two events. Then you take one passage about the coming of the Lord and apply it to one of the returns in your eschatology and take other passages and apply them to another.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But "came out of" can also mean ESCAPED.

I also will keep thee from the hour of

Just a quick note here (as I gotta dash )...

Rev7:14 says (per Grk) "COMING [participle] out-of / out-from [ek] the great tribulation" (i.e. the 2nd half... they are IN it but are "coming out-of / out-from" it)...

...which is distinct from the specific wording in 3:10 "I will KEEP you out-of / out-from [ek] THE HOUR OF" (i.e. out-of / out-from the TIME PERIOD OF... referring specifically, per context, to the ENTIRE time period we call The Tribulation [the whole 7-yr period, which starts with Seal #1 in chpt 6])








[by the way (for the readers), the popular argument that the wording in Rev3:10 is comparable to the wording in John 17:15 is to DISREGARD the surrounding words in each text and thus incorrectly EQUATE the two ideas being expressed in these two verses... keeping someone out-from "THE HOUR OF" a specific time-period designated in said text (Rev3:10), is NOT equivalent to His saying "keep them out-from / out-of the EVIL / EVIL-one" Jn17:15; one is a specific TIME-PERIOD, the other is NOT (not a "time-period" AT ALL)]

 

[presidente]

It is indeed axiomatic (1) that the Resurrection/Rapture will take place in God's time and (2) that it has absolutely no connection to any tribulation period.

I just wanted to clarify that you treat this as axiomatically true, no matter what, no matter that II Thessalonians 1 teaches that Jesus will give the church rest from tribulation at His appearing.

 

[presidente]

Okay [ ] , so does this mean you believe the ones who were persecuting and troubling the Thessalonians were "recompenced / repaid" back at the time they and the Thessalonians existed on the earth, in their day--in the first century?

Do you think 'we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air' refers to the first century, or does it apply throughout the ages to the church and apply specifically to whatever generation is alive and remains?

For the readers: note that this word for "repay / recompence [G467]" is also used in places like Luke 14:14 - https://biblehub.com/text/luke/14-14.htm

One passage has to do withrecompense feeding the poor crippled, lame, and blind, and the other has to do with recompense related to persecution.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

the Lord also told him Trump would win the election ....

President Trump did win the election. A false president was installed afterwards.

 

[presidente]

When we read Revelation 7:14 we get the impression that this multitude of saints was subjected to the Great Tribulation. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

But "came out of" can also mean ESCAPED. After all the Great Tribulation is for the purpose of God's wrath to fall upon the earth. But that wrath is not for the saints of God. And that ties in with this verse (Rev 3:10): Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The Great Tribulation corresponds to the seven vials of the 7th trumpet. There ha to be this correspondence. And all those vials represent the wrath of God.

Do you have the expertise to say that someone can 'come out of' that is 'erkhomenoi' used with 'ek' in Greek without first being in the place? Do you know any comentaries that say that erkhomai used with ek does not implie that those who came out of a place didn't have to be in a place to begin with? We are not talking about ekpheugo.

Luke 5:17 uses a grammatically inflected form of the same word with 'ek.' Didn't the Pharisees and teachers of the law have to be in Galilee before they could come out of Galilee? In John 3:31, didn't the Son of man have to be in heaven before He could come from heaven?

Would you say the teachers of the law who came out of Galilee were not in Galilee prior to coming out of Galilee? Would you say that the Son of man was not in heaven before coming out of heaven? Why would you say these people who came out of the great tribulation were not in it before they came out of it.

I wouuld venture to guess that you do not have the Greek expertise to make this claim, but that you just fish for a possible interpretation that could somehow make the passage compatible with pretrib. Even if you had Greek examples of people coming out of places or situations who hadn't been in those places or situations, that would still not be evidence for pretrb. You would still be assuming two coming of the Lord events instead of one, and then trying to fit a problem passage into your preassumed pretrib scenario.

Do you have any Biblical evidence that the coming of the Lord in the rapture passage, I Thessalonians 4, occurs at a different time from the other coming of the Lord passages in scripture?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

At that point in time (the rapture), all that will matter is what you did.....not "what to do".
You'll be along for the ride in a situation completely out your control.

And your "Eschatalogical Theology" will be significant in what way???

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

It is not my eschatology. And we can abolish that word altogether. It is Bible prophecy, and that comes from God. Take it or leave it.

The prophesy is: "HE'S COMING BACK". That covers it nicely (and things will get really ugly before that happens). I agree. no problem there. Right now the Jews have got a satanist running around claiming to be Christ, and the fools are buying into it. WHoopee. I've got a book the proves Biblically without a doubt that the rapture will occur during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988. BIBLICAL PROOF!!! - except -

"Prophesy" is all well and good. Israel had prophesy by the bucket about Messiah, and because of THEIR "Precious theology" not only missed Him when HE came, they went ahead and MURDERED HIM to preserve their beliefs. There were a few at the time that understood, but "Organized religion" didn't have a clue.

The only time "Prophesy" in the Bible was ever really "Gotten right" in general was in Nehemiah's time about the return to the Holy Land.

Bottom line - Our understanding of prophesy/eschatology/Theology isn't worth SPIT. When It's time, He'll do what HIS PLAN calls for. Born again Christians will be ready.

 

[cv5]

And your "Eschatalogical Theology" will be significant in what way???

Joyful anticipation bro. Joyful anticipation. Waiting for our blessed Hope. That which Paul preaches about over and over again.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Show us where the Bible teaches the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

The very fact that Christ said over and over again that His coming for the Church would be unannounced and unexpected is sufficient proof that he did not tie it to any tribulation period. The very fact that Enoch was taken long before the Flood was to prefigure the Rapture of the Church.

 

[oyster67]

presidente said:
(Why don't you just cut random-sized letters out of a newspaper to use in yoru messages like a serial killer leaving a message for the police?)

presidente said:
This reminds me of an Islamic apologist's debating tactic-- "Tell me where the Bible says, quote, "Jesus is God'" and if you cannot find the exact quote, he claims victory.

The Bible never says 'second coming.' It says 'coming.' We read about the 'coming of the Son of Man' and 'His coming' and 'the coming of the Lord.'

That is what post-tribbing will do to you.

The second coming is explicitly described in 1 Thessalonians 4.16

There is simply no rapturing-up event mentioned at the time of the Second Coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 is a going-up event, not a coming-down event like Christ's Second Coming to earth is. One event that does occur at post-trib is the resurrection of tribulation saints, but that is not a rapture-up event.

The Rapture-up event:
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Coming-down event:
Jude 1
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

These two events are separate and distinct. There is no rapture in the second event because the Rapture occurred seven years prior.

 

[presidente]

The very fact that Christ said over and over again that His coming for the Church would be unannounced and unexpected is sufficient proof that he did not tie it to any tribulation period. The very fact that Enoch was taken long before the Flood was to prefigure the Rapture of the Church.

The verse about no man knowing the day or hour comes from Matthew 24, about the coming of the Son of Man. The very same passage shows us that the coming of the Son of man happens AFTER the tribulation.

 

[oyster67]

But we will escape God's wrath, we are agreed upon this.

Yes brother.

 

[presidente]

presidente said:
There is simply no rapturing-up event mentioned at the time of the Second Coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 is a going-up event, not a coming-down event like Christ's Second Coming to earth is. One event that does occur at post-trib is the resurrection of tribulation saints, but that is not a rapture-up event.

The Rapture-up event:
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Coming-down event:
Jude 1
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

These two events are separate and distinct. There is no rapture in the second event because the Rapture occurred seven years prior.

The Bible tells certain things that happens at the coming of the Lord:
* The in Christ rise and we which are alive and remain are caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.
* The Lord comes with His saints.
* The lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of His coming.

How do you get a pretribulational rapture out of what the Bible actually says.


What the BIBLE DOES NOT say:
* That there are two comings of Christ after the ascension.
* That the Lord comes before the tribulation.
* That the saints go up into heaven for seven years at the coming of the Lord after meeting the Lord in the clouds.


The coming of the Son of man and gathering of the elect happen 'AFTER THE TRIBULATION' according to Matthew 24.

The issue is whether we accept what the scripture says about the coming of the Lord, or do we add all these ideas that the Bible doesn't teach, eisegete them into the Bible and base doctrine on theories the scriptures do not teach.

If you can show any scripture that says that Jesus comes back twice and/or that the rapture occurs before the tribulation, please do so. I have been asking for that for years. I don't know why anyone would hold to pretrib if they had no biblical evidence for that. Just go ahead and show it if you have it.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

presidente said:
(Why don't you just cut random-sized letters out of a newspaper to use in yoru messages like a serial killer leaving a message for the police?)

presidente said:
This reminds me of an Islamic apologist's debating tactic-- "Tell me where the Bible says, quote, "Jesus is God'" and if you cannot find the exact quote, he claims victory.


That is what post-tribbing will do to you.





There is simply no rapturing-up event mentioned at the time of the Second Coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 is a going-up event, not a coming-down event like Christ's Second Coming to earth is. One event that does occur at post-trib is the resurrection of tribulation saints, but that is not a rapture-up event.

The Rapture-up event:
1 Thessalonians 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Coming-down event:
Jude 1
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

These two events are separate and distinct. There is no rapture in the second event because the Rapture occurred seven years prior.

I still don't see a justification or any logic behind separating the meeting into 2 different times.

Pretrib rules do not trump scripture.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

~ Heb 9 (KJV)

 

[cv5]

And your "Eschatalogical Theology" will be significant in what way???

Believing prophecy induces/amplifies faith. Inducing in the yet-to-be saved and amplified in the saved.

2Pe 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

BTW....fully 2/3 of the Bible is prophecy. You must agree.....this is "significant".

 

[presidente]

Believing prophecy induces/amplifies faith. Inducing in the yet-to-be saved and amplified in the saved.

2Pe 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

BTW....fully 2/3 of the Bible is prophecy. You must agree.....this is "significant".

All that sounds reasonable. But we aren't talking about believing prophecy. We are talking about the pretrib rapture theory, which does not have scripture to back it up.

Could you go ahead and post the scripture that says that Christ returns and raptures/gathers the church before the tribulation?


I have posted scripture about Jesus returning and gathering the elect numerous times.