Doctrine of Unconditional Election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

John146

Senior Member
#4,042
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#4,042
Moses_Young said:
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren
Click to expand...
This is merely stating that God must know the person first before predestinating them to the adoption, which is the redemption of our body. Look back at verse 23. Question is, when does God know us as one of his?

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#4,044
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#4,044
John146 said:
This is merely stating that God must know the person first before predestinating them to the adoption, which is the redemption of our body. Look back at verse 23. Question is, when does God know us as one of his?

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Click to expand...
There is a point in time when God knows you as one of his sons. This is when one hears the gospel of Jesus Christ and believes.
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#4,045
Nov 21, 2020
6,334
557
113
#4,045
John146 said:
This is merely stating that God must know the person first before predestinating them to the adoption, which is the redemption of our body. Look back at verse 23. Question is, when does God know us as one of his?

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Click to expand...
He knows His own from everlasting!
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#4,051
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
#4,051
John146 said:
Bible verses that state that God knows everyone who will be saved. I don't want man's logic.
Click to expand...
This work?

[Luk 10:20 KJV]
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

[Mat 7:23 KJV]
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Eph 1:1, 4-5 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

[Eph 2:10 KJV]
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Mat 25:33-34 KJV]
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
 
Bob-Carabbio

Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
#4,052
Jun 24, 2020
1,603
804
113
#4,052
brightfame52 said:
Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​
​
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​
​
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​
​
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​
​
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
​
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​
Click to expand...​
Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​
I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !
Click to expand...
EVen Calvinists admit that "Election" IS CONDITIONAL but NOT conditional on anything WE humans are aware of. God has his own conditions. so the Calvie "U" is essentially meaningless.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#4,053
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
#4,053
John146 said:
Bible verses that state that God knows everyone who will be saved. I don't want man's logic.
Click to expand...
Forgot to include this one in my prior reply:

[Rev 17:8 KJV]
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#4,054
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
#4,054
Bob-Carabbio said:
EVen Calvinists admit that "Election" IS CONDITIONAL but NOT conditional on anything WE humans are aware of. God has his own conditions. so the Calvie "U" is essentially meaningless.
Click to expand...
It was conditioned upon something -- that Christ successfully complete the task God set before Him to bring salvation to those so chosen by Him. Christ was fully and completely successful in this. As to the names He chose, it was by, and only by, that He chose them - but not by anything they did nor could do -- this choice was made by God before the foundation of the world.
 
Bob-Carabbio

Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
#4,055
Jun 24, 2020
1,603
804
113
#4,055
rogerg said:
It was conditioned upon something -- that Christ successfully complete the task God set before Him to bring salvation to those so chosen by Him. Christ was fully and completely successful in this. As to the names He chose, it was by, and only by, that He chose them - but not by anything they did nor could do -- this choice was made by God before the foundation of the world.
Click to expand...
Based on "Conditions" that we know NOTHING of.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#4,057
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
113
#4,057
rogerg said:
This work?

[Luk 10:20 KJV]
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

[Mat 7:23 KJV]
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Eph 1:1, 4-5 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

[Eph 2:10 KJV]
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Mat 25:33-34 KJV]
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Click to expand...
Actually, none of them state that the Lord knows who will be saved. The Ephesians passage is not God's choosing of people, rather, God has chosen the spiritual blessings to be found in Christ. This was chosen before the foundation of the world. No one was in Christ before the foundation of the world. More Calvin's false doctrine.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#4,058
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
#4,058
John146 said:
Actually, none of them state that the Lord knows who will be saved. The Ephesians passage is not God's choosing of people, rather, God has chosen the spiritual blessings to be found in Christ. This was chosen before the foundation of the world. No one was in Christ before the foundation of the world. More Calvin's false doctrine.
Click to expand...
Absurd
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#4,059
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#4,059
rogerg said:
As to the names He chose, it was by, and only by, that He chose them - but not by anything they did nor could do -- this choice was made by God before the foundation of the world.
Click to expand...
This is completely false since faith in Christ is essential for anyone to be saved (Acts 16:30,31). If you did not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as Lord and Savior, you did not obey the Gospel. And obedience to the Gospel is something a person must do or not do. So if you have no done this you cannot claim to be saved.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#4,060
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
#4,060
John146 said:
Actually, none of them state that the Lord knows who will be saved. The Ephesians passage is not God's choosing of people, rather, God has chosen the spiritual blessings to be found in Christ. This was chosen before the foundation of the world. No one was in Christ before the foundation of the world. More Calvin's false doctrine.
Click to expand...
No, those who are to inherit the spiritual blessing were they who were chosen before the foundation of the world. That spiritual blessing is salvation through Christ. What Eph 1:4 says is completely unambiguous: "HE HATH CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD". This answers your question, period.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

If names weren't written into it from the foundation of the world, then names were written into it from the foundation of the world.
This also answers your question, period. If you are going to twist yourself into a pretzel to avoid what is clearly written, you are just spinning your wheels and wasting our time.

[Rev 17:8 KJV]
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.