Do you observe the Sabbath?
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I can answer each of those verses in separate posts, if you want. I refuse to generate a large post as people cannot read much beyond ten lines.
My agenda?
Your the one in denial of what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:10-13.
Your mixing the works in the Christian life with the gift of salvation.
The two do not go together.
The gift is freely given to those that believe but the works are the response to the gift.
If you believe, receive the Holy Spirit, you will bear the fruit.
My agenda?
Your the one in denial of what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:10-13.
Your mixing the works in the Christian life with the gift of salvation.
The two do not go together.
The gift is freely given to those that believe but the works are the response to the gift.
If you believe, receive the Holy Spirit, you will bear the fruit.
I honestly don’t think I’m reading the Bible wrong.
Let’s look at something else more clear.
Remember the verses I showed you about getting repaid for what people do, whether good or bad? Well, the repaying for the good is eternal life. The repay for the bad is wrath and anger.
Take a gander at what Paul said below. Are you going to spin this to where we aren’t required to persist in doing good for eternal life?
And read the context as well. It applies to Jews or Gentiles.
Romans 2
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
Let’s look at something else more clear.
Remember the verses I showed you about getting repaid for what people do, whether good or bad? Well, the repaying for the good is eternal life. The repay for the bad is wrath and anger.
Take a gander at what Paul said below. Are you going to spin this to where we aren’t required to persist in doing good for eternal life?
And read the context as well. It applies to Jews or Gentiles.
Romans 2
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
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You say i mix the old and new, but i think your separating faith and works.
Gods part of the covenant old and new was perfect. God was not faulty in the old covenant.
The new is based on us trusting in Jesus to renew a right spirit in us. In the old the people tried to do it themselves.
By constantly beholding Jesus, we “are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 3:18.
It was thus that the early disciples gained their likeness to the dear Saviour.
Jesus prayed for us, and He asked that we might be one with Him, even as He is one with the Father. The Saviour has said of Himself, “The Son can do nothing of Himself;” “the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works.” John 5:19; 14:10. Then if Christ is dwelling in our hearts, He will work in us “both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13. We shall work as He worked; we shall manifest the same spirit. And thus, loving Him and abiding in Him, we shall “grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.” Ephesians 4:15.
Christ can change us "To will and to do His good pleasure", we can't but by beholding Him and submitting to Him all things are possible.
It is the fathers and Jesus's will that we remember the sabbath.
Gods part of the covenant old and new was perfect. God was not faulty in the old covenant.
The new is based on us trusting in Jesus to renew a right spirit in us. In the old the people tried to do it themselves.
By constantly beholding Jesus, we “are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 3:18.
It was thus that the early disciples gained their likeness to the dear Saviour.
Jesus prayed for us, and He asked that we might be one with Him, even as He is one with the Father. The Saviour has said of Himself, “The Son can do nothing of Himself;” “the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works.” John 5:19; 14:10. Then if Christ is dwelling in our hearts, He will work in us “both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13. We shall work as He worked; we shall manifest the same spirit. And thus, loving Him and abiding in Him, we shall “grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.” Ephesians 4:15.
Christ can change us "To will and to do His good pleasure", we can't but by beholding Him and submitting to Him all things are possible.
It is the fathers and Jesus's will that we remember the sabbath.
Did He need to in a perfect world.
What it is called is not the issue...
we know it was the seventh day of creation and ...
we know it was a day of rest,
.....and we know it was a sanctified day ....
and we know it was called the sabbath latter on. There is a lot of certainty known.
Gen 2:2-3 KJV 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
We also know that the reason why God blessed the 7th day and sanctified it has not changed. Because God rested at creation God set it aside. Because we are forgetful and sinful God needed to remind us and gave the 4th commandment.
Remember the sabbath to keep it holy.
All the more reason to not forget it.
What it is called is not the issue...
we know it was the seventh day of creation and ...
we know it was a day of rest,
.....and we know it was a sanctified day ....
and we know it was called the sabbath latter on. There is a lot of certainty known.
Gen 2:2-3 KJV 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
We also know that the reason why God blessed the 7th day and sanctified it has not changed. Because God rested at creation God set it aside. Because we are forgetful and sinful God needed to remind us and gave the 4th commandment.
Remember the sabbath to keep it holy.
All the more reason to not forget it.
This is one of my favorite verses.
Rom 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
When the Holy Spirit is in you and controlling you, we are not condemned because the righteousness of the Spirit, the righteousness of Jesus and the righteousness of the law are being fulfilled in us.
For example.
I'm very angry and frustrated at my brother and my flesh wants to say and do evil.
But i have a choice walk in the Spirit or walk after the flesh.
If i pray for the Spirit and surrender my will to the Holy Spirit. The Spirit impresses me with bible verses like Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
And the Spirit enables or empowers me to do what is righteous. Thanks to Jesus.
Because i walked in the Spirit (thanks to Jesus, all glory to God) i fulfilled the righteousness of the law and have no condemnation.
I am also justified by faith when i do fall and sin.
Rom 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
When the Holy Spirit is in you and controlling you, we are not condemned because the righteousness of the Spirit, the righteousness of Jesus and the righteousness of the law are being fulfilled in us.
For example.
I'm very angry and frustrated at my brother and my flesh wants to say and do evil.
But i have a choice walk in the Spirit or walk after the flesh.
If i pray for the Spirit and surrender my will to the Holy Spirit. The Spirit impresses me with bible verses like Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
And the Spirit enables or empowers me to do what is righteous. Thanks to Jesus.
Because i walked in the Spirit (thanks to Jesus, all glory to God) i fulfilled the righteousness of the law and have no condemnation.
I am also justified by faith when i do fall and sin.
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I understand the key to Romans 8:1 as being found in verse 4. The righteous requirement of the law is met in those who live according to the Spirit. That's those of us who chose to live according to the Spirit. We can still live according to the flesh, if we choose.
Romans 8
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
I'll also add some testimony. In my experience with God's Spirit, we aren't being controlled like a puppet. We can choose to live according to the flesh, but it's going to be a lot harder to give in to it, with God's Spirit prompting us, convicting us, and even speaking to us.
Galatians 5
16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Romans 8
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
I'll also add some testimony. In my experience with God's Spirit, we aren't being controlled like a puppet. We can choose to live according to the flesh, but it's going to be a lot harder to give in to it, with God's Spirit prompting us, convicting us, and even speaking to us.
Galatians 5
16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
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The context of what you cited is that if anyone persistently did good they could be given eternal life, but no one does. You should see that immediately if you simply read v. 1 of chapter 2.
He goes on:
Romans 3:19-26
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth [as] a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
And then come chapters 4 and 5 explaining that through works no one will ever be justified before God or be rewarded with eternal life - - it can only be through faith, and this has been God's purpose since the beginning. Then chapters 6-8 explain how this can be: we die with Him, and having died, the law has no more jurisdiction or requirement of us. We are made free, and cannot be condemned. The life we now have is in Him, a free gift.
Romans is not 2 verses to be pulled out of context. It is a long, complex, multilayered argument.
He goes on:
Romans 3:19-26
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth [as] a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
And then come chapters 4 and 5 explaining that through works no one will ever be justified before God or be rewarded with eternal life - - it can only be through faith, and this has been God's purpose since the beginning. Then chapters 6-8 explain how this can be: we die with Him, and having died, the law has no more jurisdiction or requirement of us. We are made free, and cannot be condemned. The life we now have is in Him, a free gift.
Romans is not 2 verses to be pulled out of context. It is a long, complex, multilayered argument.
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I appreciate your response. Where we differ is that I see that being in Christ is given and the subsequent behavior is the work of God in us. Thus, what we do gives evidence that we are indeed in Christ. You seem to be saying that we have to perform these things to maintain ourselves in Christ.
If I have misrepresented you I did so without malice and would welcome further explanation.
If I have misrepresented you I did so without malice and would welcome further explanation.
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well, I think we can know for sure or not if we have ever willingly sinned after being born again and how difficult was it to willingly do it. I guess the answer for most people is yes.
Consider these things below:
Galatians 5
24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Mark 14:38
38Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Romans 8
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Paul is saying, if you live according to the flesh you will die. Pretty sure this isn’t talking about death of the body since all people die eventually. He’s talking about a different kind of death. Paul wasn’t a “have faith and do nothing” kind of guy. I don’t see that Jesus or any of his apostles were either.
Consider these things below:
Galatians 5
24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Mark 14:38
38Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Romans 8
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Paul is saying, if you live according to the flesh you will die. Pretty sure this isn’t talking about death of the body since all people die eventually. He’s talking about a different kind of death. Paul wasn’t a “have faith and do nothing” kind of guy. I don’t see that Jesus or any of his apostles were either.
Here is the verse you quoted and asked me to comment on.
Romans 2:6-8
Who will repay each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation.
This verse is part of the introduction that Paul initiates as he heads towards, the targeted audience.
Obviously, Paul is referring to Christians who obey the truth, loving others, i.e., faultless behavior by any measure. They will receive life eternal.
And the self-serving folk, driven by passions and desires, they are slaves to unrighteousness. They do not obey the truth. They will be under the wrath of God.
Paul's argument is heading in a certain direction and has a destination in sight.
It is not easy to see but it will become clearer as we progress.
We read on to understand the context, the destination, that Paul introduced in Romans 2:6-7.
Here are two sets of verses that anyone who may think that they understand, the letter to the Romans. Should be able to isolate the audience that Paul is addressing in the Roman church. Which should be a surprise for many.
Romans 2:17-18
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God, and know His will and distinguish the things that matter, being instructed from the Law.
Romans 2:24-25
For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.
For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision.
The way you answer this question will decide ultimately, if you understand Paul's letter to the Romans.
Who is Paul addressing in Rome?
Romans 2:6-8
Who will repay each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation.
This verse is part of the introduction that Paul initiates as he heads towards, the targeted audience.
Obviously, Paul is referring to Christians who obey the truth, loving others, i.e., faultless behavior by any measure. They will receive life eternal.
And the self-serving folk, driven by passions and desires, they are slaves to unrighteousness. They do not obey the truth. They will be under the wrath of God.
Paul's argument is heading in a certain direction and has a destination in sight.
It is not easy to see but it will become clearer as we progress.
We read on to understand the context, the destination, that Paul introduced in Romans 2:6-7.
Here are two sets of verses that anyone who may think that they understand, the letter to the Romans. Should be able to isolate the audience that Paul is addressing in the Roman church. Which should be a surprise for many.
Romans 2:17-18
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God, and know His will and distinguish the things that matter, being instructed from the Law.
Romans 2:24-25
For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.
For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision.
The way you answer this question will decide ultimately, if you understand Paul's letter to the Romans.
Who is Paul addressing in Rome?
Paul's addresses the two possible judgments of the law which encompasses all who "God will repay", either those of v.7, "To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life," as well as v.8 "But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger." and, after comparing the respective positions of Jews and Gentiles to the Law throughout, concludes with what is written in Romans 3:
10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous,
not even one.
10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous,
not even one.
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Separating faith and works? I have always said that faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. Do you infuse faith and works together and make no distinction between the two? That would explain a lot if you did. Romans Catholics teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation. Other works-salvationists teach that we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works and the end result is salvation by faith AND works.
The Israelites were faulty.
The Israelites failed. (Romans 10:1-4)
God does work in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Show me in the NT where it is the Father's and Jesus' will for the Church/the body of Christ to keep the sabbath. In Colossians 2:16-17, we read - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. We find our "sabbatismos" rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:9) in contrast with keeping the weekly sabbath day under the law. So why turn keeping the sabbath say into a legalistic prescription for Christians under the new covenant?
The Israelites were faulty.
The Israelites failed. (Romans 10:1-4)
God does work in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Show me in the NT where it is the Father's and Jesus' will for the Church/the body of Christ to keep the sabbath. In Colossians 2:16-17, we read - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. We find our "sabbatismos" rest in Christ (Hebrews 4:9) in contrast with keeping the weekly sabbath day under the law. So why turn keeping the sabbath say into a legalistic prescription for Christians under the new covenant?
Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.
Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
Nehemiah 9:13 - “Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 “So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.
God reminded us and gave us the 4th commandment? Who is us? (See Exodus 20:2) The word "Sabbath" first appears in Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.
The Word of God makes it quite clear that Sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: “The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.” (Exodus 31:16-17)
In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the Ten Commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.” (Deuteronomy 5:15)
Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.
Nehemiah 9:13 - “Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 “So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.
God reminded us and gave us the 4th commandment? Who is us? (See Exodus 20:2) The word "Sabbath" first appears in Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.
The Word of God makes it quite clear that Sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: “The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.” (Exodus 31:16-17)
In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the Ten Commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.” (Deuteronomy 5:15)
Paul is saying don’t do these things, therefore there is something you must do, or rather avoid. If you chose to live in this way, then Paul says you won’t inherit the kingdom of God. Does that sound like saved by grace through faith alone to you?
Galatians 5
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
So like I keep saying, Ephesians 2:8-10 isn’t a go-to verse for Paul’s theology and certainly doesn’t summarize salvation.
Galatians 5
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
So like I keep saying, Ephesians 2:8-10 isn’t a go-to verse for Paul’s theology and certainly doesn’t summarize salvation.