Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[SonLight_Wolf]

Anyone can do good works.. the issue is why are you doing them?

Because your saved,

or in order to be saved?


I received salvation when like the tax collector.; I repented fully and placed my faith in the work of Christ and the promises of God. no by works of righteousness which I did. am doing or will do. But by Gods mercy. through the washing and regeneration of the HS.

Maybe one day you will find this out for yourself.

Amen.

We cannot earn salvation. Salvation is by grace and faith alone, and these are God's gifts. Not of ourselves so that the ego cannot boast we saved ourselves.

The natural mind cannot understand this. The things of God. Which is why I think we on occasion encounter the natural minded who, pride, selfishness, that insists they earn their salvation because they're special and labored unto God's approval. And grace.

I think that's why that same ego insists they can lose what they worked to achieve. It's all self. Not Christ.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I received salvation when like the tax collector.; I repented fully and placed my faith in the work of Christ and the promises of God. no by works of righteousness which I did. am doing or will do. But by Gods mercy. through the washing and regeneration of the HS.

Well, you've got it half right.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

Eternal life is a future gift. That’s why perseverance is required. I know, many verses look like “oh all I have to do is believe for eternal life and I get it immediately!” but then later they always say that eternal life comes later “in the age to come” or some future time. Feel free to look it up.

That's hogwash. And not at all sustained by right understanding of the gospel.

When perseverance is mentioned it means to sustain our knowledge of God's true covenant. It's intended to reinforce assurance that no matter what as we perservere, press on in life, come what may, we are assured of our salvation come what may.
Nothing changes this. It is an affirmation, not a condition of our salvation.

Conditional salvation is a falsehood.
It's like when Satan tempted Jesus. ''If you are.... Prove it! "
God proved his word is eternal and has no expiration date when he calls us to eternal, key word being eternal, salvation.

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

Perseverance in doing good, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

I think I understand what you are conveying, but the problem imo is that Paul clearly says that it is "according to their deeds", then lists the deeds and reward.

If it is according to their deeds, then the question becomes can our deeds as believers become sinful, and I believe Paul suggests that here, for example

Romans 6:12-13
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires. Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness.

and here

Galatians 6:7-10
Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to the family of faith.


and other places

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Eternal life is a future gift. That’s why perseverance is required. I know, many verses look like “oh all I have to do is believe for eternal life and I get it immediately!” but then later they always say that eternal life comes later “in the age to come” or some future time. Feel free to look it up.

Nope.

"Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the One having sent Me, he has [PRESENT indicative] eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed [PERFECT indicative] out of [the] death into [the] life." - John 5:24









[my suspicions are, that perhaps you are mistaking the, what-you-might-call, prophetic parts ABOUT "the age [singular] to come" (the earthly MK age--and their ENTRANCE INTO it), and that which leads UP TO and into that age, and then incorrectly supposing that "eternal life" is not a present possession of US, in the here and now; I could be wrong about your "understanding" on that, not sure... just a thought, based on what you've written in the above quote]

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No.

btw, this is what Paul actually accuses them of



Another way to put it is does observing special days and months and seasons and years mean you have forsaken Jesus?

They were on a slippery slope in my opinion. Please forgive me then if I am misunderstanding you but from your refusal to give a simple yes or no answer, I assume you mean that Paul thought these people
v'
v
v

He accuses them of returning to the law. Of which those special days months and seasons are apart of.

He accuses them of grace plus works.

as he said.

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?

You can post those two verss until you’re blue in the face. They do not support your view. Paul is speaking to you. Asking you if you suffered so many things in vein, have you?

Did not have the Holy Spirit, were not sons of God, and had no faith in Christ Jesus

(correct me if I am wrong)

which is quite absurd in my opinion, as Paul clearly affirms
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

and not

You may be all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

And affirms they have the Holy Spirit in both scenarios here
Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

etc. etc.

Perhaps there is confusion in what I am asking. Just in case there is, I am not asking what Paul ultimately thinks of people under the law to begin with. I am asking what he thought about specific people here, even if he were somehow mistaken about them, which seems to be that these people had (in bold)


And, simultaneously, that these same people could (in bold)



the good news here is that seems plain enough for all to see

lol. Paul wrote to the church.. the people who were saved.

he also wrote to people in the church who may not be saved..

Ar you going to listen to pauls words. Or stand by some misinterpreted words.. Can a person be saved by law. paul accused these people of trying to be saved by law. Were they saved? Did they have the Holy Spirit?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Well, you've got it half right.

Half right?

Jesus said the tax collector went hime justified.

He did nt say he went home half justified or partially justified..

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

Debunked?
It's denoting the difference between the eternally redeemed and those who remain of natural mind and die as the unregenerated fallen.

from Romans 1:1 until about Romans 2:12 it is either greeting the Roman believers or indiscriminately describing the sins of and warning of the judgement for each human. Then in Romans 2:13 begins to distinguish the specific consequences of being under the law, then under grace through faith in the following chapters.

I encourage everyone to read for themselves, however, to verify this.

 

[ThewindBlows]

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

The gift of God is Jesus, Christ in you, you have him you have life if and he will never leave or forsake you

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

Anyone can do good works.. the issue is why are you doing them?

Because your saved,

or in order to be saved?


I received salvation when like the tax collector.; I repented fully and placed my faith in the work of Christ and the promises of God. no by works of righteousness which I did. am doing or will do. But by Gods mercy. through the washing and regeneration of the HS.

Maybe one day you will find this out for yourself.

They'd have to be humbled first. Right now their arrogant egocentrism let's them think they're co-creators with God and his plan is to have them assist him in saving them.
Which is why such ideas lead to thinking they can lose what they worked for.

There is no peace in that mindset.

Our good deeds are proof of our salvation. Not a labor to achieve or retain it.
That's the worldly mindset. Earn it!

 

[BreatheFocusBet]

He accuses them of returning to the law. Of which those special days months and seasons are apart of.

Yes.

yet not

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.

and still

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.

lol. Paul wrote to the church.. the people who were saved.

he also wrote to people in the church who may not be saved..

What is a clear example of this in Galatians, without being inductive?

Paul seems to be wholesale talking to a group of people without making any distinctions within the group.

Were they saved? Did they have the Holy Spirit?

Interesting that osas seems to hinge on this question,

Galatians 5:25-26
Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.

Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

Galatians 4:8-9
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles?

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?


(again, correct me if I assumed wrong about your position)
I am curious if everyone else with osas thinks Paul thought these people ^ did not have the Holy Spirit and were not saved, is it not obvious that Paul thought they had the Holy Spirit here?

And if so, is it not obvious that he thought Christ could become, to these same people (in bold)
Galatians 5:2
Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes.

yet not

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.

and still

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.




What is a clear example of this in Galatians, without being inductive?

Paul seems to be wholesale talking to a group of people without making any distinctions within the group.


Interesting that osas seems to hinge on this question,

Galatians 5:25-26
Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.

Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

Galatians 4:8-9
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles?

Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?


(again, correct me if I assumed wrong about your position)
I am curious if everyone else with osas thinks Paul thought these people ^ did not have the Holy Spirit and were not saved, is it not obvious that Paul thought they had the Holy Spirit here?

And if so, is it not obvious that he thought Christ could become, to these same people (in bold)
Galatians 5:2
Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

?

Correct me if I am wrong

You believe a person who comes to God in belief but tries to keep their salvation by works is saved.

You believe we are saved by following the law

You believe we are saved by a different gospel than the one paul taught?

I ask,. Because i can see no other explanation by what you keep saying.

 

[ResidentAlien]

You believe a person who comes to God in belief but tries to keep their salvation by works is saved.

If they come to God in belief aren't they saved? Aren't you then saying a saved person can lose their salvation by working to keep it? I'm not trying to cause you doubt, just pointing out a lot of what you say is illogical.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If they come to God in belief aren't they saved? Aren't you then saying a saved person can lose their salvation by working to keep it? I'm not trying to cause you doubt, just pointing out a lot of what you say is illogical.

even demons believe yet tremble.. it takes more than just beliving jesus ws a person and died on the cross. It takes true repentance.

You don;t work to try to keep it unless you believe you have to earn it.. your faith is in your works. You may believe in jesus, but you do not trust him.. you trust your work, whatever work thAt may be..

Jesus said if you believe, you will never die, but live forever.

you either believe him or you do not.

 

[posthuman]

The key being “you who practice lawlessness.”

As you know, God’s gifts are irrevocable. This is talking about people who at one point had God’s glory in mind, retained their spiritual gift after committing apostasy, and became a useless servant, not doing God’s will. God’s will isn’t lawlessness then. This is a picture of Judas who apparently lost his salvation.

I still haven’t seen where you have answered my question even though I have kindly continued answering your questions. Was Judas OSAS?

"I never knew you"
means
"I never knew you"

do you agree or disagree?

 

[Runningman]

That's hogwash. And not at all sustained by right understanding of the gospel.

When perseverance is mentioned it means to sustain our knowledge of God's true covenant. It's intended to reinforce assurance that no matter what as we perservere, press on in life, come what may, we are assured of our salvation come what may.
Nothing changes this. It is an affirmation, not a condition of our salvation.

Conditional salvation is a falsehood.
It's like when Satan tempted Jesus. ''If you are.... Prove it! "
God proved his word is eternal and has no expiration date when he calls us to eternal, key word being eternal, salvation.

I was hoping people would at least do their research before before disagreeing. Be a Berean and search the scriptures daily to see if what I am saying is true, or let me search them for you, I guess.

Matthew 25:31,46
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Luke 20
35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Mark 10
30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

John 6
54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Romans 2
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15
52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

1 John 2
24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

Jude 1
21keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

 

[Runningman]

Nope.

"Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the One having sent Me, he has [PRESENT indicative] eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed [PERFECT indicative] out of [the] death into [the] life." - John 5:24









[my suspicions are, that perhaps you are mistaking the, what-you-might-call, prophetic parts ABOUT "the age [singular] to come" (the earthly MK age--and their ENTRANCE INTO it), and that which leads UP TO and into that age, and then incorrectly supposing that "eternal life" is not a present possession of US, in the here and now; I could be wrong about your "understanding" on that, not sure... just a thought, based on what you've written in the above quote]

Nope.

Please refer to post #2,879.

 

[Runningman]

"I never knew you"
means
"I never knew you"

do you agree or disagree?

John 10
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Did Jesus know Judas? Was Jesus speaking to the 12 in Matthew 19 when he said those who left their life to follow him would have eternal life? That seems pretty conclusive to me.

 

[mailmandan]

I think I understand what you are conveying, but the problem imo is that Paul clearly says that it is "according to their deeds", then lists the deeds and reward.

Once again, it's 'descriptive' and not prescriptive. Otherwise, we would have a contradiction in scripture. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

If it is according to their deeds, then the question becomes can our deeds as believers become sinful, and I believe Paul suggests that here, for example

Romans 2:6-10 contrasts those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality, everyone who does good (descriptive of believers) with those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, everyone who does evil (descriptive of unbelievers).

Romans 6:12-13
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires

. Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness.

How about a little context. Romans 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Nothing here about a loss of salvation.

There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; slaves of sin unto death, or slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

and here

Galatians 6:7-10
Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to the family of faith.

The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.

and other places

Still looking for the specific words, "lost salvation."

 

[posthuman]

John 10
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Did Jesus know Judas? Was Jesus speaking to the 12 in Matthew 19 when he said those who left their life to follow him would have eternal life? That seems pretty conclusive to me.

Previously discussed & your view debunked.