Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

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TheDivineWatermark

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The announcement is made right before the Second Coming passage.
But what is the announcement?

In your view, the "announcement" (so to speak) is along the lines of:

" ♫ toot-toot-toot ♫ up next, the WEDDING!" [get ready for RAPTURE UP (to the clouds)--not shown--... and then returning back down!--shown]



As I see the text, the announcement (so to speak) is saying,

--"the marriage CAME" [see comparable use of this word / -form, also in Rev, at bottom of post];

--"the bride / wife [singular] PREPARED";

--"BLESSED are those [plural] HAVING BEEN INVITED TO the wedding feast / supper [i.e. the earthly MK age, up NEXT on the agenda! down there on the earth], parallel about 7-8 other "BLESSED" verses speaking to this same point;



The WEDDED Bridegroom "WITH [UNIONed-with]" His "bride / wife [singular]" then proceed DOWN to the earth (Col3:4), FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (WHERE "the GuestS [plural]" and "5 [wise] VirginS [plural]" [as "saved" persons "INVITED" during the Trib yrs] are STILL located)... and thereafter the MK-age / wedding FEAST/SUPPER commences.






____________

Note same word / -form of the word "CAME" used here (does it sound like John is seeing / describing a scene in front of his eyes that this "CAME" word means, "IS COMING UP NEXT [in the scene / chronology]"? :


9and weep over her, and smite themselves for her, shall the kings of the earth, who with her did commit whoredom and did revel, when they may see the smoke of her burning, 10from afar having stood because of the fear of her torment, saying, Wo, wo, the great city! Babylon, the strong city! because in one hour did come [same G2064 word / same FORM and spelling as our word in Rev19:7] thy judgment.

[is this saying, "♫ hear ye, hear ye ♫ ... the above text ^ is saying these ppl are recognizing WHAT'S ABOUT TO COME NEXT ON THE AGENDA"... OR is this "did come / CAME [G2064]" word here, as used in v.10 ^, telling what they already saw AS HAVING OCCURRED in their sight ALREADY, in this "picture"??... Which does the "picture" SHOW?: "UPCOMING NEXT" or "CAME" as being what the ppl "see" already?? (per the text / "picture" ^ told of in vv.9-10, where this word "CAME" is used)]

11‘And the merchants of the earth shall weep and sorrow over her, because their lading no one doth buy any more; 12lading of gold, and silver, and precious stone, and pearl, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyne wood, and every vessel of ivory, and every vessel of most precious wood, and brass, and iron, and marble, 13and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and cattle, and sheep, and of horses, and of chariots, and of bodies and souls of men. 14‘And the fruits of the desire of thy soul did go away from thee, and all things — the dainty and the bright — did go away from thee, and no more at all mayest thou find them. 15The merchants of these things, who were made rich by her, far off shall stand because of the fear of her torment, weeping, and sorrowing, 16and saying, Wo, wo, the great city, that was arrayed with fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and gilded in gold, and precious stone, and pearls — because in one hour so much riches were made waste! 17‘And every shipmaster, and all the company upon the ships, and sailors, and as many as work the sea, far off stood, 18and were crying, seeing the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like to the great city? 19and they did cast dust upon their heads, and were crying out, weeping and sorrowing, saying, Wo, wo, the great city! in which were made rich all having ships in the sea, out of her costliness — for in one hour was she made waste.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Here's other text where this word (in bold ^ ) is used (same word / -form):

"The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here." - Matthew 12:42


Does it mean "upcoming" (next) here? ("she came"... a long time back, from the time this was SPOKEN by Jesus, in His earthly ministry--first advent)





And here's how the Young's Literal Translation puts it (Rev19:7) -

"may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife did make herself ready;"


--so here, regarding "the MARRIAGE," the ylt doesn't suggest that "it's NEXT on the agenda, upcoming"... but that it "came / did come / come did" (i.e. it already took place by this point).
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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But what is the announcement?

In your view, the "announcement" (so to speak) is along the lines of:

" ♫ toot-toot-toot ♫ up next, the WEDDING!" [get ready for RAPTURE UP (to the clouds)--not shown--... and then returning back down!--shown]



As I see the text, the announcement (so to speak) is saying,

--"the marriage CAME" [see comparable use of this word / -form, also in Rev, at bottom of post];

--"the bride / wife [singular] PREPARED";

--"BLESSED are those [plural] HAVING BEEN INVITED TO the wedding feast / supper [i.e. the earthly MK age, up NEXT on the agenda! down there on the earth], parallel about 7-8 other "BLESSED" verses speaking to this same point;



The WEDDED Bridegroom "WITH [UNIONed-with]" His "bride / wife [singular]" then proceed DOWN to the earth (Col3:4), FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (WHERE "the GuestS [plural]" and "5 [wise] VirginS [plural]" [as "saved" persons "INVITED" during the Trib yrs] are STILL located)... and thereafter the MK-age / wedding FEAST/SUPPER commences.






____________

Note same word / -form of the word "CAME" used here (does it sound like John is seeing / describing a scene in front of his eyes that this "CAME" word means, "IS COMING UP NEXT [in the scene / chronology]"? :


9and weep over her, and smite themselves for her, shall the kings of the earth, who with her did commit whoredom and did revel, when they may see the smoke of her burning, 10from afar having stood because of the fear of her torment, saying, Wo, wo, the great city! Babylon, the strong city! because in one hour did come [same G2064 word / same FORM and spelling as our word in Rev19:7] thy judgment.

[is this saying, "♫ hear ye, hear ye ♫ ... the above text ^ is saying these ppl are recognizing WHAT'S ABOUT TO COME NEXT ON THE AGENDA"... OR is this "did come / CAME [G2064]" word here, as used in v.10 ^, telling what they already saw AS HAVING OCCURRED in their sight ALREADY, in this "picture"??... Which does the "picture" SHOW?: "UPCOMING NEXT" or "CAME" as being what the ppl "see" already?? (per the text / "picture" ^ told of in vv.9-10, where this word "CAME" is used)]

11‘And the merchants of the earth shall weep and sorrow over her, because their lading no one doth buy any more; 12lading of gold, and silver, and precious stone, and pearl, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyne wood, and every vessel of ivory, and every vessel of most precious wood, and brass, and iron, and marble, 13and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and cattle, and sheep, and of horses, and of chariots, and of bodies and souls of men. 14‘And the fruits of the desire of thy soul did go away from thee, and all things — the dainty and the bright — did go away from thee, and no more at all mayest thou find them. 15The merchants of these things, who were made rich by her, far off shall stand because of the fear of her torment, weeping, and sorrowing, 16and saying, Wo, wo, the great city, that was arrayed with fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and gilded in gold, and precious stone, and pearls — because in one hour so much riches were made waste! 17‘And every shipmaster, and all the company upon the ships, and sailors, and as many as work the sea, far off stood, 18and were crying, seeing the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like to the great city? 19and they did cast dust upon their heads, and were crying out, weeping and sorrowing, saying, Wo, wo, the great city! in which were made rich all having ships in the sea, out of her costliness — for in one hour was she made waste.
Could you post your point simply in a sentence or two eithout 'shouting' or excessive brackets. Where di you see parallel wording in Revelation?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Where di you see parallel wording in Revelation?
I put it at the bottom of my post just like I said.



Here it is again, in case you overlooked it -

"9and weep over her, and smite themselves for her, shall the kings of the earth, who with her did commit whoredom and did revel, when they may see the smoke of her burning, 10from afar having stood because of the fear of her torment, saying, Wo, wo, the great city! Babylon, the strong city! because in one hour did come [same G2064 word / same FORM and spelling as our word in Rev19:7--about "the marriage came"] thy judgment.

...is this saying... these ppl are recognizing "what's about to come next on the agenda"... OR is this "did come / CAME [G2064]" word here, as used in v.10 [of Rev18], telling what they already saw as having occurred in their sight already... in this "picture"??






In addition, I had put:

--also my example of this same word / -form (as in Rev19:7) used in Matthew 12:42, saying, "The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here." - Matthew 12:42

...does it mean "upcoming NEXT" here? No.



--also I showed how the Young's Literal Translation puts Rev19:7, "may we rejoice and exult, and give the glory to Him, because come did the marriage of the Lamb, and his wife did make herself ready;"

... so I'm making the point that the "announcement" you are talking about isn't announcing that "the marriage" is coming up NEXT in this context, as you suggest. Rather, what is NEXT is "the wedding feast / supper, i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth--Lk12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"--which context shows what takes place on the earth upon His "return" there--same for its parallel passage I've put in past posts.
 

oyster67

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The announcement is made right before the Second Coming passage.
And the bride is seen here in heaven receiving her white linens. She can't be on Earth and in Heaven at the same time.
Revelation Chapter 19
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The return back to Earth shortly follows. His wife is up here, not down there. His wife includes all in Christ, not just the dead saints of old.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Lucy, Lucy,............ Luuuucy P. :rolleyes: Please pardon my gaslighting, but Paul did just that.
Hast thou not read the Scriptures which saith...
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
- 1 Thessalonians 4:17,18 ="oyster67, post: 5001300, member: 197225"

You need not worry about the time of Jacob's Trouble and God's Wrath.
I am not comforted by 2 verses which have been severed from their context. Jacob's trouble is not the subject.

I am comforted to know that my relatives and firends who have passed away will be raised to life even before I am!
And that this will happen at The Lord's second coming.

Don't ignore the subject
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

Don't ignore that the context is the second coming.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.


(KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

*

I'm not worried about God's wrath because we are appointed to salvation.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;
but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people,
who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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And the bride is seen here in heaven receiving her white linens. She can't be on Earth and in Heaven at the same time.
Revelation Chapter 19
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The return back to Earth shortly follows. His wife is up here, not down there. His wife includes all in Christ, not just the dead saints of old.
How then was this bride "raptured" 7 years before the prostitute was judged and the bride has recieved her attire?

How did that pretrib bride "make herself ready"? A pretrib bride doesn't do anything. She doesn't even wait for her
whole self to arrive in heaven as she was told to do. The saints under the alter in heaven were told to wait for the full
number of their brethren to be killed as they were before their blood could be avenged. In chapter 19 they are celebrating
this vengeance. How then could there have been a rapture before the tribulation and a wedding in heaven?
Before all the saints arrive there?

The Bible tells us the bride makes herself ready. Pretrib tells us she is taken to heaven and married before she is complete.
2 opposite narratives.
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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Jacob's trouble is not the subject.
Shurly is.

I am comforted to know that my relatives and firends who have passed away will be raised to life even before I am!
Me too! :)(y)

Don't ignore that the context is the second coming.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
John heard the command to "come up" at the beginning of his vision, not the middle or end...
Revelation 4:1 “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;
but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Good verse. The bride shall not be left on Earth to endure God's Tribulation wrath.

Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people,
who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
Another good verse that emphasizes pre-trib Rapture.

this bride "raptured" 7 years before the prostitute was judged and the bride has recieved her attire?
Yes. That's what Revelation says. She, the Bride, receives her attire before the Second Coming.

How did that pretrib bride "make herself ready"?
By having her lamp trimmed, burning, and full of oil. She got into the Wedding Chamber, which signifies Heaven.

How then could there have been a rapture before the tribulation and a wedding in heaven?
Before all the saints arrive there?
Those who were not ready at the Rapture will miss the wedding. The "Tribulation Saints" and "Israel" will repopulate the Earth during the Millennium. The Bride will play a different role.

The Bible tells us the bride makes herself ready.
Yes.

Pretrib tells us she is taken to heaven and married
Yes. She was prepared with her lamp trimmed and burning when the Groom arrived in clouds and the call was sounded.

2 opposite narratives.
There is only one narrative.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Me too! :)(y)

John heard the command to "come up" at the beginning of his vision, not the middle or end...
Revelation 4:1 “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”
Rev 4:2
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John was shown visions in the spirit. I don't see how that has any relevance to pretribulationism.
 

oyster67

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John was shown visions in the spirit. I don't see how that has any relevance to pretribulationism.
John was shown future events. They are very relevant. That is what we are discussing.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Good verse. The bride shall not be left on Earth to endure God's Tribulation wrath.

Another good verse that emphasizes pre-trib Rapture.

Yes. That's what Revelation says. She, the Bride, receives her attire before the Second Coming.

By having her lamp trimmed, burning, and full of oil. She got into the Wedding Chamber, which signifies Heaven.


Those who were not ready at the Rapture will miss the wedding. The "Tribulation Saints" and "Israel" will repopulate the Earth during the Millennium. The Bride will play a different role.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
~Matt 24

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Your God protects by the blood of The Lamb. Not by pretribulational fables.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. ~Rom 5: 9
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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John was shown future events. They are very relevant. That is what we are discussing.
I agree with that but in what way are you applying John's visions to the discussion?
As evidence for a pre-tribulation resurrection & extra return of Jesus, they have no relevance.
 

GRACE_ambassador

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John was shown future events. They are very relevant. That is what we are discussing.
I agree with that but in what way are you applying John's visions to the discussion?
As evidence for a pre-tribulation resurrection & extra return of Jesus, they have no relevance.
The relevance is to show the Differences, Rightly Divided, Between the
Mystery Pre-trib rapture (meeting "in the air" to go to Heaven), And

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

the Prophesied Second Coming (return all the way to the earth):

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
-----------------------------
Precious friend(s):

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
(+ I and II)!
 

Nehemiah6

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I am comforted to know that my relatives and firends who have passed away will be raised to life even before I am! And that this will happen at The Lord's second coming.
How in the world can the resurrection of the saints be at "the Lord's second coming"?

Do you seriously believe that the resurrected saints will be dodging flaming fiery darts from Heaven while they ascend from earth? That will be one bizarre sight to behold. Now pay close attention to this: And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (2 Thess 1:7, 8)

It is truly sad that so many Christians are coming up with the most bizarre and outrageous ideas about the Second Coming of Christ. The Second Coming is in wrath, and for "taking vengeance". It has absolutely nothing to do with the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints for the simple reason that the saints will descend with Christ from Heaven at that time.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Do you seriously believe that the resurrected saints will be dodging flaming fiery darts from Heaven while they ascend from earth? That will be one bizarre sight to behold.
You seem to believe that it will be necessary to "dodge flaming darts" I certainly don't.

Just why you think The Lord God will be delivering vengeance on the saints instead of his enemies or that the resurrected
saints would need to dodge darts is anybody's guess. :unsure:


Now pay close attention to this: And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (2 Thess 1:7, 8)
I've posted that verse numerous times precisely because I do pay close attention to it. It seems to me that you have not.

I don't why you are unable to believe that Almighty God can simultaneously rescue his own people and exact vengence on his enemy. Perhaps you should go back & read Exodus again. Absorb it's lessons. Jesus' return is described in The Prophets numerous times
as simultaneous terror and splendour. The unrighteous cannot stand in his presence but he is glorious to us. You should know these things.

The highly visible second coming of Jesus Christ is what we are looking for next, that is the time we will be given relief.
His glory is paramount in our Bible. When he comes we won't be retreating.

2 Thess 1
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marvelled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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The Second Coming is in wrath, and for "taking vengeance". It has absolutely nothing to do with the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints for the simple reason that the saints will descend with Christ from Heaven at that time.
Aren't there any saints in heaven now? Perhaps you believe in soul-sleep? It is my understanding that all deceased saints are dwelling in heaven now. There isn't any need to wait for a "rapture" to populate heaven.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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The relevance is to show the Differences, Rightly Divided, Between the
Mystery Pre-trib rapture (meeting "in the air" to go to Heaven), And

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

the Prophesied Second Coming (return all the way to the earth):

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
-----------------------------
Precious friend(s):

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
(+ I and II)!
Rightly divided is unnecessary KJ Jargon.
There isn't any reason to divide The Second Coming to accommodate a philosophy of man.